UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on August 18, 2019, 09:16:36 AM
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Yes, especially in this case given Portuguese law whereby all evidence is released into the public domain post case closed.
The PJ files contain all relevant wit stats along with info from police officers, experts and forensics all of which are easily accessible via the internet. Plus the internet allows us to perform numerous other tasks eg Google maps to consider key locations etc, etc.
Solving a crime is no different to solving any problem which is something we all do everyday ranging from the small eg where did I leave my keys to bigger problems in the workplace etc.
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Yes, especially in this case given Portuguese law whereby all evidence is released into the public domain post case closed.
The PJ files contain all relevant wit stats along with info from police officers, experts and forensics all of which are easily accessible via the internet. Plus the internet allows us to perform numerous other tasks eg Google maps to consider key locations etc, etc.
Solving a crime is no different to solving any problem which is something we all do everyday ranging from the small eg where did I leave my keys to bigger problems in the workplace etc.
I think it is delusional for a poster here to believe they have solved the case... It will be interesting to see which posters believe what you think you have done is possible.
You informed SY around 5 to 6 weeks ago... Why have we heard nothing
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Yes, especially in this case given Portuguese law whereby all evidence is released into the public domain post case closed.
The PJ files contain all relevant wit stats along with info from police officers, experts and forensics all of which are easily accessible via the internet. Plus the internet allows us to perform numerous other tasks eg Google maps to consider key locations etc, etc.
Solving a crime is no different to solving any problem which is something we all do everyday ranging from the small eg where did I leave my keys to bigger problems in the workplace etc.
I think its possible its been solved already by a smorgasbord of theory's, putting them altogether and getting it right is another thing.
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I think it is delusional for a poster here to believe they have solved the case... It will be interesting to see which posters believe what you think you have done is possible.
You informed SY around 5 to 6 weeks ago... Why have we heard nothing
I am not really bothered what anyone here thinks. Those who believe the McCanns are responsible are hardly likely to buy into my claims and those who believe otherwise will not take kindly to someone else stealing their thunder.
My email to Op Grange is dated 12th Jul. Hopefully an officer wasn't sitting around twiddling his/her thumbs waiting for an email from the likes of me to fall into his/her inbox. Firstly they have to digest the info and then as I've previously said they will need to do a lot of background work which would almost certainly involve obtaining warrants to access info etc. Liaise with counterparts in Portugal and possibly at least one other country. If MM is still with her abductor(s) then it might be attempts are made to acquire DNA for verification. A crack team will then need to be put in place to make arrests and if applicable seize back MM. Psychologists will need to be on standby to deal with MM. Finally a planned response to media.
Op Grange is hardly likely to keep me in the loop and the media might only be advised once the dust has settled.
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There's a lot of evidence which is not in the public domain. No-one knows what all the other guests were doing on the evening of 3rd May.
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There's a lot of evidence which is not in the public domain. No-one knows what all the other guests were doing on the evening of 3rd May.
Not to worry G-Unit I've been able to solve the case based on the material we do have.
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In answer to pathfinder73's question re was a Brit involved: sorry no clues.
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I think its possible its been solved already by a smorgasbord of theory's, putting them altogether and getting it right is another thing.
I haven't seen anything, anywhere that comes close to what the actual closed case looks like.
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Not to worry G-Unit I've been able to solve the case based on the material we do have.
Then you are either a genius or an idiot... Time will tell
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Not to worry G-Unit I've been able to solve the case based on the material we do have.
That may be a statement of fact in your opinion; it's a statement of opinion in mine and as such is of no value.
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Not to worry G-Unit I've been able to solve the case based on the material we do have.
What a pity you didn't get involved earlier. All that money wasted on Operation Grange when all that was needed was you! @)(++(*
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Then you are either a genius or an idiot... Time will tell
There's nothing remotely genius about it.
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What a pity you didn't get involved earlier. All that money wasted on Operation Grange when all that was needed was you! @)(++(*
I know I was thinking the same. Hopefully there will be a root and branch review or to borrow a phrase from KM 'no stone unturned' in finding out what went wrong.
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In answer to pathfinder73's question re was a Brit involved: sorry no clues.
Does your theory have a brit involved in the abduction?
barrier and pathfinder's names are nothing like similar.
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There's nothing remotely genius about it.
I didn't think there was
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barrier and pathfinder's names are nothing like similar.
My mistake - apologies.
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I didn't think there was
Certainly nothing genius compared with say Mozart, Shakespeare, Alec Jeffreys etc
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I don´t see why a case could not be solved by an outsider especially if you had 10,000 people looking at it from all angles. Is it likely? Hard to say, but it is also difficult to rule it out completely. Of course we have no way of knowing if the perp/s have even been interviewed by the PJ or even mentioned in the files. Plus, when I say solved there is a big difference between seeing some contradiction or indications of possible guilt and actually gathering evidence against someone which would lead to a conviction. Of course if you look hard enough, which I imagine the PJ and OG did/ are doing you can come up with various people in the files who might merit a second look. But, calling that ´´solving´´ the crime would be a stretch. I have a feeling the perp probably has been interviewed formally or informally by the PJ but as I say this is a gut feeling about the case. The best ´´lead´´ we have is Smithman but what if this is just a red herring and one man bundled MM into a car he had parked nearby?. How do you resolve it without a confession or this man´s partner coming forward? There certainly were not many clues......................
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I know I was thinking the same. Hopefully there will be a root and branch review or to borrow a phrase from KM 'no stone unturned' in finding out what went wrong.
OK. I'm now absolutely convinced that you're a wind-up merchant.
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OK. I'm now ansolutely convinced that you're a wind-up merchant.
Not at all.
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Yes, especially in this case given Portuguese law whereby all evidence is released into the public domain post case closed.
The PJ files contain all relevant wit stats along with info from police officers, experts and forensics all of which are easily accessible via the internet. Plus the internet allows us to perform numerous other tasks eg Google maps to consider key locations etc, etc.
Solving a crime is no different to solving any problem which is something we all do everyday ranging from the small eg where did I leave my keys to bigger problems in the workplace etc.
Is that "all evidence" or "all relevant witness" statements? Did the PJ not look into the night creche and what parents took children there that night? Did the PJ not have all the daytime child minding records?
I don't believe we are being presented with all the files. There seems to be too many important gaps in the information we are presented with.
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Is that "all evidence" or "all relevant witness" statements? Did the PJ not look into the night creche and what parents took children there that night? Did the PJ not have all the daytime child minding records?
I don't believe we are being presented with all the files. There seems to be too many important gaps in the information we are presented with.
There's no need to guess, they tell you what isn't there;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
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There's no need to guess, they tell you what isn't there;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm
That is a long list of documents that have been held back.
The two areas of investigation that I mentioned didn't really fall into any of those admitted criteria IMO.
" the night creche records and what parents took children there that night? Did the PJ not have all the daytime child minding records?"
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That is a long list of documents that have been held back.
The two areas of investigation that I mentioned didn't really fall into any of those admitted criteria IMO.
" the night creche records and what parents took children there that night? Did the PJ not have all the daytime child minding records?"
You can conclude therefore that they weren't requested or supplied.
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You can conclude therefore that they weren't requested or supplied.
I'd prefer a different conclusion.
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I'd prefer a different conclusion.
Which would be?
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I'd prefer a different conclusion.
Such as?
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If the case has been solved by a non-professional investigator will the MET welcome this or find it an affront?
And what of the McCanns will they just welcome any news from any quarter or will they find if an affront too?
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If the case has been solved by a non-professional investigator will the MET welcome this or find it an affront?
And what of the McCanns will they just welcome any news from any quarter or will they find if an affront too?
I never imagined that people would contact the police to share their pet theories. It seems in this case that people have. I expect the police just file them. I expect the McCanns to be similarly unexcited.
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I expect the police get dozens of people sending them theories every month. I can’t imagine there’s anything special about Holly’s. and I’m sure they do get filed - in the bin.
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I also don’t think they consider any theory as such, sent to them. I do however think they pay attention to the public’s possible identification of person(s) of interest, relating to the case.
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I also don’t think they consider any theory as such, sent to them. I do however think they pay attention to the public’s possible identification of person(s) of interest, relating to the case.
I agree. As Rowley (I think) said there are occasional nuggets.
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I never imagined that people would contact the police to share their pet theories. It seems in this case that people have. I expect the police just file them. I expect the McCanns to be similarly unexcited.
I think the police consider all info they receive. In fact I know they do. Why wouldn't they?
Given the McCanns were taken in by the S.African guy with some phoney equipment, listening to psychics and praying then I can see no reason why they would not want to consider my well thought out theory.
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I expect the police get dozens of people sending them theories every month. I can’t imagine there’s anything special about Holly’s. and I’m sure they do get filed - in the bin.
The following is a report from Ian Horrocks with 30 years experience as a police officer. Can someone please tell me how this report differs in terms of quality from the sort of posts/ideas/theories/opinions etc posted here.
https://www.bgpglobalservices.com/happened-madeleine-mccann-2/
Perhaps people here need to have a bit more belief about their own abilities.
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The following is a report from Ian Horrocks with 30 years experience as a police officer. Can someone please tell me how this report differs in terms of quality from the sort of posts/ideas/theories/opinions etc posted here.
https://www.bgpglobalservices.com/happened-madeleine-mccann-2/
Perhaps people here need to have a bit more belief about their own abilities.
His report is fine. Does he claim to have solved the case though?
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His report is fine. Does he claim to have solved the case though?
No but unlike myself he has not identified any suspects.
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I also don’t think they consider any theory as such, sent to them. I do however think they pay attention to the public’s possible identification of person(s) of interest, relating to the case.
I think they consider all info based on merit.
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The following is a report from Ian Horrocks with 30 years experience as a police officer. Can someone please tell me how this report differs in terms of quality from the sort of posts/ideas/theories/opinions etc posted here.
https://www.bgpglobalservices.com/happened-madeleine-mccann-2/
Perhaps people here need to have a bit more belief about their own abilities.
My theory is very closely aligned with Ian's although I've been able to develop mine much further to the point I've identified the abductor(s).
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My theory is very closely aligned with Ian's although I've been able to develop mine much further to the point I've identified the abductor(s).
You may think you have but you have no proof, I doubt you have anything resembling evidence either.
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Holly, if I am correct you believe a holidaymaker at the OC stole Madeleine McCann and that she is still alive. What do you believe was the motive for this ?
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Holly, if I am correct you believe a holidaymaker at the OC stole Madeleine McCann and that she is still alive. What do you believe was the motive for this ?
It is curious that you've picked that up from what Holly has written. OK that would become very similar to my theory where I was thinking because this other holiday maker couple lose their 3 year old daughter, they take Madeleine in her place.
Which couples had a three year old?
Could a childless couple just turn up with a four year old at home? But if the couple already had a daughter who looked a bit like Madeleine, Madeleine could just about take her place.
I wonder if Holly will expound on her theory?
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You may think you have but you have no proof, I doubt you have anything resembling evidence either.
You are perfectly entitled to think whatever you want but it doesn't make you right and me wrong.
You battle away 24/7 with those here who believe the parents are responsible and then when someone relatively new comes along with an extremely well thought out and detailed theory where all the pieces fit together puuuuurfectly supporting stranger abduction you still want to disagree. Maybe you're just well disagreeable despite being a lovely fella in every way.
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You are perfectly entitled to think whatever you want but it doesn't make you right and me wrong.
You battle away 24/7 with those here who believe the parents are responsible and then when someone relatively new comes along with an extremely well thought out and detailed theory where all the pieces fit together puuuuurfectly supporting stranger abduction you still want to disagree. Maybe you're just well disagreeable despite being a lovely fella in every way.
You totally miss the point. No one has a problem with posters having theories it's whe posters want to insist their theory is what actually happened and that they have solved the case problems arise. There is not enough evidence in the public domain to prove your theory... You just don't realise its only a theory
It's related to the Dunning Kruger effect
Illusory superiority
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His report is fine. Does he claim to have solved the case though?
Not as far as I know. The reason I posted his report/theory is that he was a police officer of long experience with the MET and it is self-evident from his report that its no different from the quality of posts here. Police officers do not possess magical powers they work systematically through information in the same way we do on the forum. The only advantage the police have over us (and the private agencies employed by McCanns) is investigatory power eg ability to compel suspects/witnesses to attend interview and access certain databases.
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Holly, if I am correct you believe a holidaymaker at the OC stole Madeleine McCann and that she is still alive. What do you believe was the motive for this ?
I believe a misguided altruistic one but I can't be sure.
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Not as far as I know. The reason I posted his report/theory is that he was a police officer of long experience with the MET and it is self-evident from his report that its no different from the quality of posts here. Police officers do not possess magical powers they work systematically through information in the same way we do on the forum. The only advantage the police have over us (and the private agencies employed by McCanns) is investigatory power eg ability to compel suspects/witnesses to attend interview and access certain databases.
And we don't know who SY have interviewed and what new information they have
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It is curious that you've picked that up from what Holly has written. OK that would become very similar to my theory where I was thinking because this other holiday maker couple lose their 3 year old daughter, they take Madeleine in her place.
Which couples had a three year old?
Could a childless couple just turn up with a four year old at home? But if the couple already had a daughter who looked a bit like Madeleine, Madeleine could just about take her place.
I wonder if Holly will expound on her theory?
All the points you raise are covered off in my theory.
I will expound my theory when the time is right. OG only received my email after 5pm 5 weeks ago Fri gone. I doubt they read emails from the likes of me as and when they fall into inboxes. It would be wrong of me to send the sort of info I have to OG only to then post it up on the internet not forgetting it would contravene forum rules if I name my suspects. More importantly if MM is still alive it could put her life at risk.
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You totally miss the point. No one has a problem with posters having theories it's whe posters want to insist their theory is what actually happened and that they have solved the case problems arise. There is not enough evidence in the public domain to prove your theory... You just don't realise its only a theory
It's related to the Dunning Kruger effect
Illusory superiority
Illusory superiority? Its not me Davel who criticises the like of those who read The Sun or watch Loose Women.
I don't see anyone as superior or inferior. I know I'm right as so many pieces fit together.
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And we don't know who SY have interviewed and what new information they have
SY started on the case around Spring 2011. Initially 30 officers were working the case. Its now approaching autumn 2019. Pray tell what other organisation on the planet would take so long with so much resource to solve a relatively simple problem?
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SY started on the case around Spring 2011. Initially 30 officers were working the case. Its now approaching autumn 2019. Pray tell what other organisation on the planet would take so long with so much resource to solve a relatively simple problem?
It isn't a simple case... It's a very difficult case. The PJ have also come up with zero.
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Illusory superiority? Its not me Davel who criticises the like of those who read The Sun or watch Loose Women.
I don't see anyone as superior or inferior. I know I'm right as so many pieces fit together.
And I know you are wrong... You have a theory which is possible... That's all.. Time will tell
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SY started on the case around Spring 2011. Initially 30 officers were working the case. Its now approaching autumn 2019. Pray tell what other organisation on the planet would take so long with so much resource to solve a relatively simple problem?
I think SY would have 'solved' it if it had been their case. It isn't, it's a Portuguese case and SY have to convince them that their solution(s) are correct.
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I wonder why he dismissed the boat theory.
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And I know you are wrong... You have a theory which is possible... That's all.. Time will tell
I've explained why I'm right you just state I'm wrong.
Its easy for someone like me to solve the case. Firstly I don't expend energy on getting emotional about anything and especially not angry with those who disagree with me which is just about everyone: the so-called sceptics believe I'm wrong for obvious reasons and the supporters can't comprehend how someone like me can solve it so quickly. Secondly I have belief, confidence and faith in my own abilities. I don't get sidetracked with all the noise: tannerman, smithman, dog alerts, bogus lcn dna, sedation, T9, Amaral etc, etc.
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I've explained why I'm right you just state I'm wrong.
Its easy for someone like me to solve the case. Firstly I don't expend energy on getting emotional about anything and especially not angry with those who disagree with me which is just about everyone: the so-called sceptics believe I'm wrong for obvious reasons and the supporters can't comprehend how someone like me can solve it so quickly. Secondly I have belief, confidence and faith in my own abilities. I don't get sidetracked with all the noise: tannerman, smithman, dog alerts, bogus lcn dna, sedation, T9, Amaral etc, etc.
You think you are right... I think you are totally deluded... Lets see what SY make of your theory... Nothing as yet
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I've explained why I'm right you just state I'm wrong.
Its easy for someone like me to solve the case. Firstly I don't expend energy on getting emotional about anything and especially not angry with those who disagree with me which is just about everyone: the so-called sceptics believe I'm wrong for obvious reasons and the supporters can't comprehend how someone like me can solve it so quickly. Secondly I have belief, confidence and faith in my own abilities. I don't get sidetracked with all the noise: tannerman, smithman, dog alerts, bogus lcn dna, sedation, T9, Amaral etc, etc.
I find your reasons for eliminating the obvious suspects (family and friends) inadequate. As far as I can work it out you're using their evidence as the basis of your theory. If their evidence isn't completely correct than your theory isn't correct either.
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I find your reasons for eliminating the obvious suspects (family and friends) inadequate. As far as I can work it out you're using their evidence as the basis of your theory. If their evidence isn't completely correct than your theory isn't correct either.
No G-Unit I have said numerous times I see T9 as unreliable witnesses so have not relied upon their testimonies at all with regard to my email to OG.
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No G-Unit I have said numerous times I see T9 as unreliable witnesses so have not relied upon their testimonies at all with regard to my email to OG.
So whose do you see as reliable?
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You think you are right... I think you are totally deluded... Lets see what SY make of your theory... Nothing as yet
Davel I rather suspect if in the coming weeks there's some 'breaking news' about the case you will see this as a coincidence rather than anything to do with my email to Op Grange.
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So whose do you see as reliable?
Most other witnesses, police officers and experts.
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Davel I rather suspect if in the coming weeks there's some 'breaking news' about the case you will see this as a coincidence rather than anything to do with my email to Op Grange.
I rather suspect we'll see another prime minister before that happen's (no they are not connected).
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No G-Unit I have said numerous times I see T9 as unreliable witnesses so have not relied upon their testimonies at all with regard to my email to OG.
At one point you said that after a McCann check the 'watcher/abductor' would know they had 30 minutes in which to get the child. The only evidence of these 30 minute checks is the statements of the T9.
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Davel I rather suspect if in the coming weeks there's some 'breaking news' about the case you will see this as a coincidence rather than anything to do with my email to Op Grange.
If maddie is found alive and was taken by holidaymakers then we will know its you...
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At one point you said that after a McCann check the 'watcher/abductor' would know they had 30 minutes in which to get the child. The only evidence of these 30 minute checks is the statements of the T9.
Did I? If I did maybe it was when I first arrived here and was new to the case. I can assure you my email to OG does not refer to anything in T9 wit stats.
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If maddie is found alive and was taken by holidaymakers then we will know its you...
I think the authorities will struggle to find a connection with me in Algarve at said time but you never know innocent people have been imprisoned for less! Hopefully you and others here would campaign for my release if such a situation arose 8)-)))
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I think the authorities will struggle to find a connection with me in Algarve at said time but you never know innocent people have been imprisoned for less! Hopefully you and others here would campaign for my release if such a situation arose 8)-)))
I think you've misunderstood my post
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I think you've misunderstood my post
I thought you were joking that I'm the perp. Ok I see so you're saying if holidaymakers and MM found then you'll know its down to me. 8((()*/
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Did I? If I did maybe it was when I first arrived here and was new to the case. I can assure you my email to OG does not refer to anything in T9 wit stats.
If you're assuming that MM was in that bed and was taken from it between 8:30 and 10pm, that the patio doors were unlocked or that the window and shutter were open you're relying on T9 statements.
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I believe a misguided altruistic one but I can't be sure.
OK once again paralleling my theory.
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No G-Unit I have said numerous times I see T9 as unreliable witnesses so have not relied upon their testimonies at all with regard to my email to OG.
Why would the T9 be giving unreliable witness testimonies?
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Most other witnesses, police officers and experts.
How about naming 5 of these people?
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If you're assuming that MM was in that bed and was taken from it between 8:30 and 10pm, that the patio doors were unlocked or that the window and shutter were open you're relying on T9 statements.
Others knew the patio door was unlocked.
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If you're assuming that MM was in that bed and was taken from it between 8:30 and 10pm, that the patio doors were unlocked or that the window and shutter were open you're relying on T9 statements.
No. Numerous others have testified as to what T9's game was in the evening with regard to "childcare arrangements" eg OC employees, Mrs Fenn, JW/BO.
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No. Numerous others have testified as to what T9's game was in the evening with regard to "childcare arrangements" eg OC employees, Mrs Fenn, JW/BO.
None of them saw her being put to bed on 3rd May.
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You are perfectly entitled to think whatever you want but it doesn't make you right and me wrong.
You battle away 24/7 with those here who believe the parents are responsible and then when someone relatively new comes along with an extremely well thought out and detailed theory where all the pieces fit together puuuuurfectly supporting stranger abduction you still want to disagree. Maybe you're just well disagreeable despite being a lovely fella in every way.
Excuse me, but I only have your word for it that your theory is extremely well thought out, and that all the pieces fit together puuuuuurfectly. Am I just supposed to congratulate and thank you without knowing any detail? I'm sure if you had the courage of your convictions you would post your theory in the private section of this forum for all of us to marvel over, or more likely tell you why it wasn't so perfect after all, which is no doubt the real reason you don't want to tell us.
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So it was a holiday maker who was staying at the same resort as Madeleine McCann when she went missing and who came home with an extra child and no one noticed. OK, sounds plausible. @)(++(*
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Excuse me, but I only have your word for it that your theory is extremely well thought out, and that all the pieces fit together puuuuuurfectly. Am I just supposed to congratulate and thank you without knowing any detail? I'm sure if you had the courage of your convictions you would post your theory in the private section of this forum for all of us to marvel over, or more likely tell you why it wasn't so perfect after all, which is no doubt the real reason you don't want to tell us.
I do have the courage of my convictions that's why I'm not posting it as I promised OG I wouldn't.
You seem to want to ridicule everyone Vertigo Swirl ranging from those who believe the McCanns were responsible to the likes of myself who have forwarded to OG a well thought out theory that fits together puuuuurfectly and identifies the suspects behind a stranger abduction.
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I do have the courage of my convictions that's why I'm not posting it as I promised OG I wouldn't.
You seem to want to ridicule everyone Vertigo Swirl ranging from those who believe the McCanns were responsible to the likes of myself who have forwarded to OG a well thought out theory that fits together puuuuurfectly and identifies the suspects behind a stranger abduction.
You have invited ridicule upon yourself I'm afraid, you must surely have anticipated this?
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So it was a holiday maker who was staying at the same resort as Madeleine McCann when she went missing and who came home with an extra child and no one noticed. OK, sounds plausible. @)(++(*
MTI raised the same point. Problem for you guys is that my theory covers this off.
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You have invited ridicule upon yourself I'm afraid, you must surely have anticipated this?
Who exactly has ridiculed me/my claims? You have but most haven't and/or have simply ignored me.
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Who exactly has ridiculed me/my claims? You have but most haven't and/or have simply ignored me.
I don't think I'm alone in believing your claim is ridiculous.
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MTI raised the same point. Problem for you guys is that my theory covers this off.
It's not a problem, just tell us how, otherwise expect further ridicule.
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It's not a problem, just tell us how, otherwise expect further ridicule.
I have chosen to 'ignore' Holly as I am not in possession of sufficient knowledge to praise or ridicule Holly's theory.
That you have chosen ridicule in absence of knowledge speaks volumes.
But OMG, it has gone beyond boring now. Can't you find a new game to play?
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I have chosen to 'ignore' Holly as I am not in possession of sufficient knowledge to praise or ridicule Holly's theory.
That you have chosen ridicule in absence of knowledge speaks volumes.
But OMG, it has gone beyond boring now. Can't you find a new game to play?
I have enough knowledge to know that what Holly is claiming is absurd
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I have chosen to 'ignore' Holly as I am not in possession of sufficient knowledge to praise or ridicule Holly's theory.
That you have chosen ridicule in absence of knowledge speaks volumes.
But OMG, it has gone beyond boring now. Can't you find a new game to play?
No. Butt out.
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Posters have been sanctioned for posting about the abductor... As though it were a fact... Now it seems its perfectly acceptable.
So that's one positive... Is now acceptable to state as a fact that maddie was abducted
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Who exactly has ridiculed me/my claims? You have but most haven't and/or have simply ignored me.
Myself... G-Unit. VS... Faith... Posters who have been following the case for years.... But you think Stacy Solomon and Coleen Nolan know as much about the case as we do... Are those the experts you have posted about
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I wonder what Holly's excuses will be when nothing comes of her emails to SY and the PJ
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I wonder what Holly's excuses will be when nothing comes of her emails to SY and the PJ
That they aren’t trained to think out of the box probably.
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I have enough knowledge to know that what Holly is claiming is absurd
Coming from the man who claimed that one could do 200kph on the EN125?
What knowledge do you have, o wise one?
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No. Butt out.
I smell blood in the water. It isn't Holly's.
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I smell blood in the water. It isn't Holly's.
Ooh, a shark!
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Coming from the man who claimed that one could do 200kph on the EN125?
What knowledge do you have, o wise one?
Never claimed that... You have such a poor memory
It's impossible to solve this case on the limited evidence available...
Holly has developed a theory that satisfies... In her opinion... All the conditions. She then assumes because it does it must be true. She's mistaken...
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Coming from the man who claimed that one could do 200kph on the EN125?
What knowledge do you have, o wise one?
You’d better write to the Portugal Resident and tell them they have got it all wrong:
“ONE MAN died and seven people were injured, six of them seriously, following a crash that took place on the EN125 at the entrance to Faro, close to the turn off for Montenegro and the Ibis Hotel, last Friday afternoon. Witnesses say a silver Audi A3, which may have been travelling as fast as 200kph in the Loulé/Faro direction, caused the accident when overtaking a car on the inside. On returning to the left lane, it collided with another vehicle and lost control, careering onto the other side of the road and colliding with several cars travelling in the opposite direction”.
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You’d better write to the Portugal Resident and tell them they have got it all wrong:
“ONE MAN died and seven people were injured, six of them seriously, following a crash that took place on the EN125 at the entrance to Faro, close to the turn off for Montenegro and the Ibis Hotel, last Friday afternoon. Witnesses say a silver Audi A3, which may have been travelling as fast as 200kph in the Loulé/Faro direction, caused the accident when overtaking a car on the inside. On returning to the left lane, it collided with another vehicle and lost control, careering onto the other side of the road and colliding with several cars travelling in the opposite direction”.
Do you understand 'dead' and 'seriously injured'?
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You’d better write to the Portugal Resident and tell them they have got it all wrong:
“ONE MAN died and seven people were injured, six of them seriously, following a crash that took place on the EN125 at the entrance to Faro, close to the turn off for Montenegro and the Ibis Hotel, last Friday afternoon. Witnesses say a silver Audi A3, which may have been travelling as fast as 200kph in the Loulé/Faro direction, caused the accident when overtaking a car on the inside. On returning to the left lane, it collided with another vehicle and lost control, careering onto the other side of the road and colliding with several cars travelling in the opposite direction”.
Oh dear... Sil will be mortified
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Do you understand 'dead' and 'seriously injured'?
Do you understand 200kph on the EN125
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I have enough knowledge to know that what Holly is claiming is absurd
Perhaps you've forgotten this post. Note your use of the word 'knowledge'.
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Do you understand 200kph on the EN125
Yup.
Dead/injured.
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Others knew the patio door was unlocked.
Not until that evening they didn't.
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Do you understand 'dead' and 'seriously injured'?
Yes, and your point is?
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Yup.
Dead/injured.
So it's possible but dangerous
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Perhaps you've forgotten this post. Note your use of the word 'knowledge'.
I think it's patently obvious to anyone with any sense that Holly's claim is absurd... For the first time we have gunit... Faith.. VS and myself in total agreement
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So it's possible but dangerous
Nothing in that article indicates the speed was actually 200kph.
Nothing in the article suggests 200kph on the EN125 is survivable.
Other than that ...
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I think it's patently obvious to anyone with any sense that Holly's claim is absurd... For the first time we have gunit... Faith.. VS and myself in total agreement
So when you claimed 'knowledge' you had none. Then you claimed I had a poor memory.
Now you are claiming another option.
Would I bet on a nag with this track record?
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So when you claimed 'knowledge' you had none. Then you claimed I had a poor memory.
Now you are claiming another option.
Would I bet on a nag with this track record?
If Holly has cracked this case how do you account for your failure to do so despite your diligent efforts over the last few years? What’s she got that you haven’t?
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If Holly has cracked this case how do you account for your failure to do so despite your diligent efforts over the last few years? What’s she got that you haven’t?
As I have no idea what her theory is, how would I know?
(&^&
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So when you claimed 'knowledge' you had none. Then you claimed I had a poor memory.
Now you are claiming another option.
Would I bet on a nag with this track record?
I've certainly got enough knowledge to know Holly hasn't cracked the case... It's impossible for her to do so... She has a theory... That's all
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As I have no idea what her theory is, how would I know?
(&^&
You know what she knows, yet you have failed to crack the case. She’s obviously smarter than you are, right?
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You know what she knows, yet you have failed to crack the case. She’s obviously smarter than you are, right?
As English appears to be your first language, why do you misunderstand or misrepresent what I have said?
Repeat - I have no idea what Holly's idea is, so I am in no position to critique it.
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As English appears to be your first language, why do you misunderstand or misrepresent what I have said?
Repeat - I have no idea what Holly's idea is, so I am in no position to critique it.
I’m not asking you to critique it, I’m asking you why she has been able to crack the case (allegedly) when she has the same access to the information that you (who has been studying the case for years) have clearly not. Is English your first language btw?
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I've certainly got enough knowledge to know Holly hasn't cracked the case... It's impossible for her to do so... She has a theory... That's all
You've now gone round full circle.
So once again, what is this knowledge you speak of, o wise man?
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You've now gone round full circle.
So once again, what is this knowledge you speak of, o wise man?
First is the fact that there is not enough evidence in the public domain to solve the case....that is a fact
second a a real red flag is hollys claim that the case is easy to solve...thats absurd
The whole idea of holly being able to solve the case is completely absurd.
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I’m not asking you to critique it, I’m asking you why she has been able to crack the case (allegedly) when she has the same access to the information that you (who has been studying the case for years) have clearly not. Is English your first language btw?
You most certainly are asking me to critique it, though I have said repeatedly I don't know what Holly's theory is.
A childish game, good only for clocking up post counts.
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First is the fact that there is not enough evidence in the public domain to solve the case....that is a fact
second a a real red flag is hollys claim that the case is easy to solve...thats absurd
The whole idea of holly being able to solve the case is completely absurd.
So you have no knowledge, merely opinion? Oh dear!
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So you have no knowledge, merely opinion? Oh dear!
My post shows knowledge and is based on facts..hollys is opinion based on opinion
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You most certainly are asking me to critique it, though I have said repeatedly I don't know what Holly's theory is.
A childish game, good only for clocking up post counts.
Dear me, you really don’t understand plain English do you? Put it this way: do you accept that it is perfectly possible that Holly (who has only been studying the case for a few weeks) has been able to work out what you have not over the course of many years, i.e: what happened and who did it?
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Posters have been sanctioned for posting about the abductor... As though it were a fact... Now it seems its perfectly acceptable.
So that's one positive... Is now acceptable to state as a fact that maddie was abducted
Well if you can also say you've got enough facts to prove it.
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Well if you can also say you've got enough facts to prove it.
So what facts has Holly got...
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I wonder what Holly's excuses will be when nothing comes of her emails to SY and the PJ
I've been thinking of the likes of Sadie and Pathfinder, with no result even many years later and still unable to say what their theory was fully.
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Dear me, you really don’t understand plain English do you? Put it this way: do you accept that it is perfectly possible that Holly (who has only been studying the case for a few weeks) has been able to work out what you have not over the course of many years, i.e: what happened and who did it?
Holly has been an active poster on this forum going back years.
Perhaps as you are a newbie you have missed this?
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Holly has been an active poster on this forum going back years.
Perhaps as you are a newbie you have missed this?
holly has told us she knew llittle about the mccann case...perhaps you missed that
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Not until that evening they didn't.
I was thinking on the 1st Mrs Fenn would have figured it out for she heard the parents come home.
Another couple was seen going into the McCanns on Wednesday night so they must have been aware too, both those that did it and those that saw this.
And then all those that others spoke to.
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holly has told us she knew llittle about the mccann case...perhaps you missed that
Let me just say I can understand why Holly would not choose to plough through the mountains of drivel that have been posted on this forum.
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So what facts has Holly got...
Its like pulling teeth Davel.
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I was thinking on the 1st Mrs Fenn would have figured it out for she heard the parents come home.
Another couple was seen going into the McCanns on Wednesday night so they must have been aware too, both those that did it and those that saw this.
And then all those that others spoke to.
Do you have a cite for this couple being seen.. Or is it just more gossip
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Let me just say I can understand why Holly would not choose to plough through the mountains of drivel that have been posted on this forum.
I think holly and you are responsible for most of it.. Hollys claim is absurd
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Do you have a cite for this couple being seen.. Or is it just more gossip
Whatever, Kate sees the stain on the pyjamas I think she has some proof someone else came into their apartment.
Madeleine basically asked "why did someone else come and not you?"
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Holly has been an active poster on this forum going back years.
Perhaps as you are a newbie you have missed this?
Holly by her own admission knew virtually nothing about this case until a few weeks ago, perhaps not being very observant yourself you missed this. Still anything to get out of giving a straight answer to a straight question. (&^&
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Whatever, Kate sees the stain on the pyjamas I think she has some proof someone else came into their apartment.
Madeleine basically asked "why did someone else come and not you?"
So you have no cite... And you also have no cite for what you claim maddie said...you seem to be making things up
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I think holly and you are responsible for most of it.. Hollys claim is absurd
Whereas I think it is being churned out by the two forum posters who top the rate of posts rankings.
Such is life!
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Whereas I think it is being churned out by the two forum posters who top the rate of posts rankings.
Such is life!
I I think it's being churned out by you and holly... Such is opinion
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Its like pulling teeth Davel.
You make no sense
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I I think it's being churned out by you and holly... Such is opinion
Perhaps on this occasion you think your opinion is worthwhile.
But as you have said many times before you think your opinion is worthless ... nuff said.
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Perhaps on this occasion you think your opinion is worthwhile.
But as you have said many times before you think your opinion is worthless ... nuff said.
I've said everyone here opinion is worthless.. As it is..
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So you have no cite... And you also have no cite for what you claim maddie said...you seem to be making things up
You know what Madeleine said, but what does it mean. Kate thought it meant someone else had been there the night before. Don't you accept that?
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You know what Madeleine said, but what does it mean. Kate thought it meant someone else had been there the night before. Don't you accept that?
I think you are deliberate clouding the issue... Where is the evidence of a couple being seen entering the apartment.. As you claimed.. Who saw them
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I think you are deliberate clouding the issue... Where is the evidence of a couple being seen entering the apartment.. As you claimed.. Who saw them?
Both good questions - I'd love to know too.
The UK police did not release their thousands of pages of evidence when the case was archived. Therefore only if the same people get written about in the MSM do we hear what they said to the police previously.
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The UK police did not release their thousands of pages of evidence when the case was archived. Therefore only if the same people get written about in the MSM do we hear what they said to the police previously.
So you don't have a cite for something you claimed as fact
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So...is it possible the police know the identity of the abductor
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So you don't have a cite for something you claimed as fact
Everything I've said is well known.
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So...is it possible the police know the identity of the abductor
They might know who came into the apartment on Wednesday night to comfort the kids.
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They might know who came into the apartment on Wednesday night to comfort the kids.
Who said anybody did... Could you stick with facts or state its your opinion
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Everything I've said is well known.
That isn't a cite... It's gossip with nothing to support it
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Who said anybody did... Could you stick with facts or state its your opinion
You were asking about possibilities. "So...is it possible the police know the identity of the abductor"
So I gave a possible answer: "They might know who came into the apartment on Wednesday night to comfort the kids."
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You were asking about possibilities. "So...is it possible the police know the identity of the abductor"
So I gave a possible answer: "They might know who came into the apartment on Wednesday night to comfort the kids."
But there is no confirmation anyone came into the apartment on Wednesday...
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That isn't a cite... It's gossip with nothing to support it
So you admit knowing about it, therefore you don't need a cite.
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So you admit knowing about it, therefore you don't need a cite.
There is no confirmation any couple were seen entering the apt on Wed...
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But there is no confirmation anyone came into the apartment on Wednesday...
Tell Kate that. She thinks it is a very real possibility. The evidence of it is what Madeleine said, and the "tea stain".
Or are you denying those too?
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There is no confirmation any couple were seen entering the apt on Wed...
Do you know what was in the UK police files?
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Tell Kate that. She thinks it is a very real possibility. The evidence of it is what Madeleine said, and the "tea stain".
Or are you denying those too?
What did madeleine say... You changed it.. Stick to the facts
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Do you know what was in the UK police files?
Yes.. So Where's the confirmation of a couple entering that apt to comfort maddie
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What did madeleine say... You changed it.. Stick to the facts
No one accurately remembers what Madeleine said. There are several versions quoted in interviews over the years.
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Yes.. So Where's the confirmation of a couple entering that apt to comfort maddie
Was that "yes" an answer to the question: "Do you know what was in the UK police files?"?
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No one accurately remembers what Madeleine said. There are several versions quoted in interviews over the years.
could you quote the one you claimed it seems to me youve made it up
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Was that "yes" an answer to the question: "Do you know what was in the UK police files?"?
of course I do...and thwere is nothing in the files about a couple enetering 5a to comfort maddie
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could you quote the one you claimed it seems to me youve made it up
I admit in the post it was a possible meaning to what Madeleine said. I've never denied that.
My post was in http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10983.msg553403#msg553403
"Whatever, Kate sees the stain on the pyjamas I think she has some proof someone else came into their apartment.
Madeleine basically asked "why did someone else come and not you?""
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No one accurately remembers what Madeleine said. There are several versions quoted in interviews over the years.
whio says no one remembers...where are these different accounts...more making things up
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I admit in the post it was a possible meaning to what Madeleine said. I've never denied that.
so it wa s just your opinion
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whio says no one remembers...where are these different accounts...more making things up
Come on Davel are you admitting you are not aware of at least three versions of what Kate and Gerry remember Madeleine saying? I thought you were up to date on this case.
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Come on Davel are you admitting you are not aware of at least three versions of what Kate and Gerry remember Madeleine saying? I thought you were up to date on this case.
i am...so can you cite the three and we can leave it there...simple as that
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so it wa s just your opinion
A very considered opinion yes.
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A very considered opinion yes.
That's your opinion too.. I think you've posted an absolute load of rubbish... I'm off to watch University Challenge now
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i am...so can you cite the three and we can leave it there...simple as that
Will you give me an apology when I do? I've read the three versions may times and I don't think it is a big deal but the sceptics make a big deal from it and you want me to repeat it!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10983.msg553435#msg553435 is worthy of an apology IMO.
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That's your opinion too.. I think you've posted an absolute load of rubbish... I'm off to watch University Challenge now
Good on you.
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The morning Madeline disappeared she’d asked her mum; “Why didn’t you come when Sean and I cried last night?”
"MADELEINE McCann asked her mum Kate "why didn’t you come when I cried last night?" just hours before she went missing while on holiday."
There is a whole thread discussing the versions. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8941.0
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Off topic... Saw my son last night.. Over a bottle of Cloudy Bay Sauvingnin Blanc.... He said what an incredible country NZ is
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Off topic... Saw my son last night.. Over a bottle of Cloudy Bay Sauvingnin Blanc.... He said what an incredible country NZ is
I can verify that.
Fabulous country; lovely ever changing scenery especially on South island; wonderful helpful people with old fashioned, fifties style good manners; fine quality very fresh food in restaurants, with wonderful salads which often incorporate fruit ... and the best white wine in the world IMO.
Especially Cloudy Bay Sauvignon Blanc. Save me a glass next time please Dave.
It was ouir 40th weddind anniversary present to ourselves and we both agreed that it was the only country in the World that we had visited, that we would like to live in.
If you manage to make it over there, try the restaurants that are often attached to the major vineyards. We only visited two, but both meals were superb and the ambience quietly gentile.
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An incredible new publication hot off the press...
(https://i.imgur.com/Oc5ZsU3.jpg)
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An incredible new publication hot off the press...
(https://i.imgur.com/Oc5ZsU3.jpg)
@)(++(* 8((()*/
Most here probably will not appreciate the 'As recommended by...' It turns I was right on this occasion... ?>)()< 8(>((
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6384.msg246801#msg246801
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7252771/Crime-author-Paul-Harrisons-book-pulled-amid-claims-didnt-interview-serial-killers.html
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I was curious about the “Former Bond Floozy” bit.
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I was curious about the “Former Bond Floozy” bit.
I think Myster was just trying to downplay Dr Holly Goodhead's qualifications in astrophysics and time spent at NASA.
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I've certainly got enough knowledge to know Holly hasn't cracked the case... It's impossible for her to do so... She has a theory... That's all
I assume you have enough knowledge to know that Sadie hasn’t cracked the case?
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I assume you have enough knowledge to know that Sadie hasn’t cracked the case?
Sadie has a theory.... Holly claims she's solved the case and it was easy.... I think Holly has a theory... The same as Sadie has a theory
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Sadie has a theory.... Holly claims she's solved the case and it was easy.... I think Holly has a theory... The same as Sadie has a theory
Probably quite similar imo.
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Probably quite similar imo.
Yes, sounds like it-although Holly did not tell us the reason for the 'abduction'. knghts Templar/ jewish/irish bloodline.
Jiggy jiggy leprechauns dancing round a tree,..
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Yes, sounds like it-although Holly did not tell us the reason for the 'abduction'. knghts Templar/ jewish/irish bloodline.
Jiggy jiggy leprechauns dancing round a tree,..
What nothing about the troubles in Ireland!
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Probably quite similar imo.
No, Holly s and my theories are totally different, but it could be that Holly is right and I am wrong .... but certainly OG took an interest in my theory and carried my folder (one of a number) on TV Crimewatch program, with a complimentary comment at the same time about ... a detailed investigation by a member of the public had changed their thinking.
Also
my big box folder position, placed in the middle position of the top shelf in the OG operations room, seemed rather significant.
Strangely, the colour of my carried folder has been changed on all the sites that show The Crimewatch program, from lavender (Lilac) to aquamarine and on another Mccann owned site, it had been changed less drastically to a sort of midnight blue.
Who could have done this ... and why?
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How do you know Holly's theory? She won't tell us.
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No, Holly s and my theories are totally different, but it could be that Holly is right and I am wrong .... but certainly OG took an interest in my theory and carried my folder (one of a number) on TV Crimewatch program, with a complimentary comment at the same time about ... a detailed investigation by a member of the public had changed their thinking.
Also
my big box folder position, placed in the middle position of the top shelf in the OG operations room, seemed rather significant.
Strangely, the colour of my carried folder has been changed on all the sites that show The Crimewatch program, from lavender (Lilac) to aquamarine and on another Mccann owned site, it had been changed less drastically to a sort of midnight blue.
Who could have done this ... and why?
Do I see a new claim?
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No, Holly s and my theories are totally different, but it could be that Holly is right and I am wrong .... but certainly OG took an interest in my theory and carried my folder (one of a number) on TV Crimewatch program, with a complimentary comment at the same time about ... a detailed investigation by a member of the public had changed their thinking.
Also
my big box folder position, placed in the middle position of the top shelf in the OG operations room, seemed rather significant.
Strangely, the colour of my carried folder has been changed on all the sites that show The Crimewatch program, from lavender (Lilac) to aquamarine and on another Mccann owned site, it had been changed less drastically to a sort of midnight blue.
Who could have done this ... and why?
The sun came up again this morning,so it matters not.
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No, Holly s and my theories are totally different, but it could be that Holly is right and I am wrong .... but certainly OG took an interest in my theory and carried my folder (one of a number) on TV Crimewatch program, with a complimentary comment at the same time about ... a detailed investigation by a member of the public had changed their thinking.
Also
my big box folder position, placed in the middle position of the top shelf in the OG operations room, seemed rather significant.
Strangely, the colour of my carried folder has been changed on all the sites that show The Crimewatch program, from lavender (Lilac) to aquamarine and on another Mccann owned site, it had been changed less drastically to a sort of midnight blue.
Who could have done this ... and why?
Sadie, don't you think as they had a different coloured folder it wasn't yours ,and perhaps they were not implying You were that member of the public they mentioned?
I am taking a stab in the dark here but IMO they were not your folders changing colours, they were other peoples folders.
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Do I see a new claim?
No not a new one. it has been mentioned a few times before. You are obviously not reading my posts poperly, but that is up to you.
But please do not criticize when you are wrong. TY
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How do you know Holly's theory? She won't tell us.
I know my main theory is different because it seems that Holly concentrates on what happened in PdL.
Virtually all my main theory is about what happened to Madeleine after she left PdL
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Sadie, don't you think as they had a different coloured folder it wasn't yours ,and perhaps they were not implying You were that member of the public they mentioned?
I am taking a stab in the dark here but IMO they were not your folders changing colours, they were other peoples folders.
No, because I am not colour blind and I have home video of the actual Crimewatch program, showing the correct colour and it was my folder the officer was carrying. It was lilac then.
Not only did it have my labels stuck to it but I could also see my scrawling writing on the labels. They were specially scrawly because I have a pile of papers filling my desk and I wrote with the folder balanced on them. Also on the big screen TV, it was possible to see the black edged punch pockets that I used.
I also have a screen shot print out that shows the lilac Etc.
Without doubt it was my folder FACT.
And promoted when interviewed at OG I was promoted from a basic Detective Constable to a Detective Sargeant level, and spoke at that level afterwards all the times I visited after.
Despite initially saying that it was like a Dan Brown novel, I also have been regularily assisted by a Sargeant at my local Police Station, for a number of years, as my theory unfolded. He has always been there for me and listened intently. I have stopped my research now and I quite miss our discussions.
The other thing is that I grabbed a screen shot of the little girl that I believe likely to be Madeleine and her head was at a certain angle. I sent this along with the video to OG.
The last but one Madeleine age progression image is, adversely to others, at the same angle as my screen shot. All the others are full face; this is not.
Maybe just a coincidence? I dont know, but that is quite an array of happenings for them to all be wrong IMO
For some reason, my folder s colour has been changed. To undermine me? Dunno
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I know my main theory is different because it seems that Holly concentrates on what happened in PdL.
Virtually all my main theory is about what happened to Madeleine after she left PdL
Well there doesn't seem any doubt MM disappeared from PDL? So my theory covers how I believe she was abducted: abductor entered via unlocked patio doors, staged window and shutter, scooped up MM, exited front door and placed in nearby waiting car and drove off. Courtesy of Schengen agreement abductor(s) had access to roam pretty much unfettered. The lifestyle of my suspect(s) at the time of abduction would allow for a period of lying low until the dust settled and then allow for MM to be incorporated into a 'normal' lifestyle.
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Well there doesn't seem any doubt MM disappeared from PDL? So my theory covers how I believe she was abducted: abductor entered via unlocked patio doors, staged window and shutter, scooped up MM, exited front door and placed in nearby waiting car and drove off. Courtesy of Schengen agreement abductor(s) had access to roam pretty much unfettered. The lifestyle of my suspect(s) at the time of abduction would allow for a period of lying low until the dust settled and then allow for MM to be incorporated into a 'normal' lifestyle.
So your suspect(s) had no friends, neighbours or family who would ask where their new child came from?
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So your suspect(s) had no friends, neighbours or family who would ask where their new child came from?
But I didn't say what you've quoted above. I said:
The lifestyle of my suspect(s) at the time of abduction would allow for a period of lying low until the dust settled and then allow for MM to be incorporated into a 'normal' lifestyle.
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But I didn't say what you've quoted above. I said:
The lifestyle of my suspect(s) at the time of abduction would allow for a period of lying low until the dust settled and then allow for MM to be incorporated into a 'normal' lifestyle.
No, but surely their 'lifestyle' involved having no contact with such people, at least until 'the dust settled'?
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No, but surely their 'lifestyle' involved having no contact with such people, at least until 'the dust settled'?
Depends what you mean by no contact and whether this includes one abductor or both if applicable and at what times and which locations: face-to-face, phone, skype, email, text, letter.
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Depends what you mean by no contact and whether this includes one abductor or both if applicable and at what times and which locations: face-to-face, phone, skype, email, text, letter.
Whichever way you spin it there will be questions unless the child is kept secret forever.
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Whichever way you spin it there will be questions unless the child is kept secret forever.
Its not a case of spinning anything. Some people have a lifestyle that could lend to what I've suggested others not.
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Its not a case of spinning anything. Some people have a lifestyle that could lend to what I've suggested others not.
Well I did. We travelled and only visited home occassionally, but then I'd have had to explain the cuckoo in my nest.
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Well I did. We travelled and only visited home occassionally, but then I'd have had to explain the cuckoo in my nest.
Only if you chose to introduce the 'cuckoo'.
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Only if you chose to introduce the 'cuckoo'.
I suppose I could leave her home alone.
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I suppose I could leave her home alone.
You are pre-supposing any abductor(s) have immediate/extended families and if so they wish to maintain contact. If they did then I guess its a case of where there's a will there's a way. If MM's abduction involves a couple then they could probably get away with the usual Christmas get-togethers by saying the other was unwell with one attending and/or on some occasions they have decided to take a winter break (in a Schengen country). Once the initial media attention died down and MM's physical appearance changed through normal development a nanny could be employed from some far flung place. If the couple have a plausible story and seem respectable there's no reason for anyone to suspect anything.
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You are pre-supposing any abductor(s) have immediate/extended families and if so they wish to maintain contact. If they did then I guess its a case of where there's a will there's a way. If MM's abduction involves a couple then they could probably get away with the usual Christmas get-togethers by saying the other was unwell with one attending and/or on some occasions they have decided to take a winter break (in a Schengen country). Once the initial media attention died down and MM's physical appearance changed through normal development a nanny could be employed from some far flung place. If the couple have a plausible story and seem respectable there's no reason for anyone to suspect anything.
Surely you must admit this scenario is a bit far fetched?
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You are pre-supposing any abductor(s) have immediate/extended families and if so they wish to maintain contact. If they did then I guess its a case of where there's a will there's a way. If MM's abduction involves a couple then they could probably get away with the usual Christmas get-togethers by saying the other was unwell with one attending and/or on some occasions they have decided to take a winter break (in a Schengen country). Once the initial media attention died down and MM's physical appearance changed through normal development a nanny could be employed from some far flung place. If the couple have a plausible story and seem respectable there's no reason for anyone to suspect anything.
It all sounds rather far fetched to me. What a way to live.
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I suppose I could leave her home alone.
That hand as already been played.
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Well there doesn't seem any doubt MM disappeared from PDL? So my theory covers how I believe she was abducted: abductor entered via unlocked patio doors, staged window and shutter, scooped up MM, exited front door and placed in nearby waiting car and drove off. Courtesy of Schengen agreement abductor(s) had access to roam pretty much unfettered. The lifestyle of my suspect(s) at the time of abduction would allow for a period of lying low until the dust settled and then allow for MM to be incorporated into a 'normal' lifestyle.
So your story has a happy ending for Maddie? No child killers/paedo gang/sex slaver/traffickers/forced marriage/illegal adoption/sold by gypsies?
What a relief!
"I suppose I could leave her home alone"
Yes! but what if she were abducted from that loving family- OMG the thought of it.
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It all sounds rather far fetched to me. What a way to live.
But the mothering instinct can be a strong one at times.
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Holly, if the police thoroughly investigate this person and don’t find Madeleine will you accept that or will you think they forgot to look for a hidden dungeon?
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Surely you must admit this scenario is a bit far fetched?
In what way do you consider it far-fetched?
As I said I have identified who I believe abducted MM. Based on the age, own family set up at time of appearance, work and general lifestyle of the perp(s) I think it is possible they have been able to raise MM as their own with relative ease.
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In what way do you consider it far-fetched?
As I said I have identified who I believe abducted MM. Based on the age, own family set up at time of appearance, work and general lifestyle of the perp(s) I think it is possible they have been able to raise MM as their own with relative ease.
How have you been able to investigate this individual’s background, family set up and general lifestyle?
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Holly, if the police thoroughly investigate this person and don’t find Madeleine will you accept that or will you think they forgot to look for a hidden dungeon?
A thorough investigation and an overlooked hidden dungeon would not seem to go hand-in-hand.
I can't be certain the perp abducted MM to raise as his/her own. The motive may have been to carry out some assault and then dispose of but I think (and hope) it is the former. The other possibility is that the perp may have intended to raise as own but given all the media attention may have panicked and did something they did not intend to do. Another possibility is the perp abducted MM with some misguided idea about teaching the McCanns a lesson for leaving the children alone in an unlocked apartment and intended to return MM but again felt unable to do so given the media attention and may have done something they did not intend to do.
On a scale of 1 -10:
How sure am I my theory is correct : 9
How sure am I that I've identified perp(s) : 9
How sure am I about motive to raise as own at time of abduction : 8
How sure am I MM is alive and with perp(s) : 8
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How have you been able to investigate this individual’s background, family set up and general lifestyle?
All from publicly available info.
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How have you been able to investigate this individual’s background, family set up and general lifestyle?
All from publicly available info.
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All from publicly available info.
Meaning what?
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Meaning what?
Info that's in the public domain. I do not have access to info that is not in the public domain.
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But the mothering instinct can be a strong one at times.
If such an instinct is proved to exist be sure to let me know.
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A thorough investigation and an overlooked hidden dungeon would not seem to go hand-in-hand.
I can't be certain the perp abducted MM to raise as his/her own. The motive may have been to carry out some assault and then dispose of but I think (and hope) it is the former. The other possibility is that the perp may have intended to raise as own but given all the media attention may have panicked and did something they did not intend to do. Another possibility is the perp abducted MM with some misguided idea about teaching the McCanns a lesson for leaving the children alone in an unlocked apartment and intended to return MM but again felt unable to do so given the media attention and may have done something they did not intend to do.
On a scale of 1 -10:
How sure am I my theory is correct : 9
How sure am I that I've identified perp(s) : 9
How sure am I about motive to raise as own at time of abduction : 8
How sure am I MM is alive and with perp(s) : 8
A thorough investigation it may well be, but I’m asking if that would satisfy you or whether you would assume that because they didn’t find Madeleine that it wasn’t thorough enough.
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If such an instinct is proved to exist be sure to let me know.
I think it can be proved its why women and men undertake physically and mentally grueling attempts at fertility treatment as described in KM's book. Its why same sex couples such as Elton John and David Furnish turn to surrogacy. Its why the likes of my adoptive parents adopted me.
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A thorough investigation it may well be, but I’m asking if that would satisfy you or whether you would assume that because they didn’t find Madeleine that it wasn’t thorough enough.
Yes because I sent the info to the 'Find Madeleine' site which at some stage I feel certain KM will pick up on and she will leave no stone unturned in her quest to find MM.
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Info that's in the public domain. I do not have access to info that is not in the public domain.
what, like social media, linkedin etc?
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If such an instinct is proved to exist be sure to let me know.
there would be no human race without it - proof enough?
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what, like social media, linkedin etc?
A small amount of social media along with other more old school info in the public domain.
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If such an instinct is proved to exist be sure to let me know.
It is definitely in animals so why not in humans?
OK its not perfect. Maybe it was when the animals lived in their natural environment.
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It is definitely in animals so why not in humans?
OK its not perfect. Maybe it was when the animals lived in their natural environment.
Upon giving birth, perhaps. Few animals are keen on another's offspring (including me lol).
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Upon giving birth, perhaps. Few animals are keen on another's offspring (including me lol).
I know what you mean. Cows will steal calves from other cows prior to giving birth to their own. Dogs can be particularly odd and will even mother the offspring of other species. I'm not sure how it works in humans. Most abide by the law and adopt pets in the end.
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I know what you mean. Cows will steal calves from other cows prior to giving birth to their own. Dogs can be particularly odd and will even mother the offspring of other species. I'm not sure how it works in humans. Most abide by the law and adopt pets in the end.
Humans tend to train females for motherhood, so there's societal pressure. The birth rate is falling in Western countries, which suggests females don't always have an overriding need to breed now they have choices. I find the idea of taking on someone else's 3 year old horrific, to be honest. Especially one who was going to want to go home.
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Humans tend to train females for motherhood, so there's societal pressure. The birth rate is falling in Western countries, which suggests females don't always have an overriding need to breed now they have choices. I find the idea of taking on someone else's 3 year old horrific, to be honest. Especially one who was going to want to go home.
I'm talking through a hole in my head. I find the topic of instinct very interesting but I have no idea really how it actually works.
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I think it can be proved its why women and men undertake physically and mentally grueling attempts at fertility treatment as described in KM's book. Its why same sex couples such as Elton John and David Furnish turn to surrogacy. Its why the likes of my adoptive parents adopted me.
I believe the real reason for Elton and David's surrogacy was neither of them had a w..b. kinda need one of em for babies.
Instinct. I do believe in humans having a 6th sence. we lose it if we don't tune into it. I know when any of my children are having a difficult day or are upset before they come home from school! thoughts about my child would be in my head and I would get a sad feeling for no reason. And they all have a cheerie disposition so it isn't an every day occurance.
I do believe in mothers instinct- not all mothers are aware of it. this can be due to conception/difficult pregnancy/pre/postnatal depression to name a few. Some mothers hate their offsprings or have favorites.
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I believe the real reason for Elton and David's surrogacy was neither of them had a w..b. kinda need one of em for babies.
Instinct. I do believe in humans having a 6th sence. we lose it if we don't tune into it. I know when any of my children are having a difficult day or are upset before they come home from school! thoughts about my child would be in my head and I would get a sad feeling for no reason. And they all have a cheerie disposition so it isn't an every day occurance.
I do believe in mothers instinct- not all mothers are aware of it. this can be due to conception/difficult pregnancy/pre/postnatal depression to name a few. Some mothers hate their offsprings or have favorites.
If you get to the stage where you steal someone else's child you need help. That's nothing to do with a mothering instinct.
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If you get to the stage where you steal someone else's child you need help. That's nothing to do with a mothering instinct.
Well of course other aspects of envy, jealousy, maybe even greed could contribute to the criminality of the situation. If it was truly instinctive to do this they could hardly make it illegal can they.
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If you get to the stage where you steal someone else's child you need help. That's nothing to do with a mothering instinct.
Indeed! that is a diferent issue. comminting a crime to procure a child has nothing to do with mothers instinct in that situation. As the person stealing the child would have no mother instinct due to the fact she is not the mother and there is no instinctive bond.
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The fact it took so long for investigators, Portuguese and/or British, to rule out 'Tannerman' shows they are not on top of their game.
Much evidence existed in the very days not to overplay this sighting:
- The fact a night creche operated in the self-contained resort catering for holiday makers in accommodation scattered about meant that it wasn't an unusual sight to observe men (dads) walking around with babes in arms.
- The S&R scent dogs did not track to the direction of 'Tannerman'.
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Once DCI Redwood became almost certain he had ruled out 'Tannerman' as an entirely innocent British holiday maker he homed in on 'Smithman'. Why?
- The fact a night creche operated in the self-contained resort catering for holiday makers in accommodation scattered about meant that it wasn't an unusual sight to observe men (dads) walking around with babes in arms.
- The S&R scent dogs did not track to the direction of 'Smithman'.
Is this the best Op Grange can come up with given the resources: headcount of 30 and some 11 million pounds?
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The fact it took so long for investigators, Portuguese and/or British, to rule out 'Tannerman' shows they are not on top of their game.
Much evidence existed in the very days not to overplay this sighting:
- The fact a night creche operated in the self-contained resort catering for holiday makers in accommodation scattered about meant that it wasn't an unusual sight to observe men (dads) walking around with babes in arms.
- The S&R scent dogs did not track to the direction of 'Tannerman'.
I thought that the Portuguese had discarded Tannerman almost from the start and that it was only the McCanns that claimed he was the abductor.
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I thought that the Portuguese had discarded Tannerman almost from the start and that it was only the McCanns that claimed he was the abductor.
I believe the PJ didn't put much weight on 'Tannerman' on the basis the scent dogs didn't track in that direction but they didn't seem to tie in Dr T and Mrs T saying they thought Dr T was probably the man JT claims to have observed.
And I haven't heard any investigator/forensic scientist say 'Tannerman' and 'Smithman' might well be red herrings on the basis of how the night creche operated.
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Once DCI Redwood became almost certain he had ruled out 'Tannerman' as an entirely innocent British holiday maker he homed in on 'Smithman'. Why?
- The fact a night creche operated in the self-contained resort catering for holiday makers in accommodation scattered about meant that it wasn't an unusual sight to observe men (dads) walking around with babes in arms.
- The S&R scent dogs did not track to the direction of 'Smithman'.
Is this the best Op Grange can come up with given the resources: headcount of 30 and some 11 million pounds?
Smithman was walking about in a part of Luz which is totally unconnected to the OC.
The OC is not a self-contained resort. It sprawls over a large swathe of Luz, most of which is public access.
And you seem to be relying heavily on the SAR dogs.
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Smithman was walking about in a part of Luz which is totally unconnected to the OC.
The OC is not a self-contained resort. It sprawls over a large swathe of Luz, most of which is public access.
And you seem to be relying heavily on the SAR dogs.
I didn't say OC is a self-contained resort. I said
"The fact a night creche operated in the self-contained resort catering for holiday makers in accommodation scattered about meant that it wasn't an unusual sight to observe men (dads) walking around with babes in arms".
I'm relying on the above coupled with the fact that S&R dogs did not scent in the direction of 'Tannerman' or 'Smithman'.
What are you relying on if you believe these sightings are anything more than red herrings?
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Once DCI Redwood became almost certain he had ruled out 'Tannerman' as an entirely innocent British holiday maker he homed in on 'Smithman'. Why?
Is this the best Op Grange can come up with given the resources: headcount of 30 and some 11 million pounds?
Once Tannerman was out of the equation what else was there,they then went onto digging up the countryside in the mistaken belief for some reason (that one presumes Smithman buried the girl there),they weren't looking for stolen property from any burglary.
@Holly does your theory happen in between these two sighting's.
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Once Tannerman was out of the equation what else was there,they then went onto digging up the countryside in the mistaken belief for some reason (that one presumes Smithman buried the girl there),they weren't looking for stolen property from any burglary.
@Holly does your theory happen in between these two sighting's.
A detailed analysis of all available info seeking further info as and when required.
I cannot be sure of the time as I don't find any of the T9 testimony reliable in this regard. I'm not convinced GM physically checked the children at circa 9 pm and I'm not convinced the others were checking as regularly as they claim and/or they were checking round the front via locked doors.
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A detailed analysis of all available info seeking further info as and when required.
I cannot be sure of the time as I don't find any of the T9 testimony reliable in this regard. I'm not convinced GM physically checked the children at circa 9 pm and I'm not convinced the others were checking as regularly as they claim and/or they were checking round the front via locked doors.
There was nothing in between,who ever Redwood found did not see anything suspicious at the time of the tanner sighting,that allowed the timeline to move on.
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There was nothing in between,who ever Redwood found did not see anything suspicious at the time of the tanner sighting,that allowed the timeline to move on.
I meant a detailed analysis of the whole case not just homing in on what might well be red herrings.
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I didn't say OC is a self-contained resort. I said
"The fact a night creche operated in the self-contained resort catering for holiday makers in accommodation scattered about meant that it wasn't an unusual sight to observe men (dads) walking around with babes in arms".
I'm relying on the above coupled with the fact that S&R dogs did not scent in the direction of 'Tannerman' or 'Smithman'.
What are you relying on if you believe these sightings are anything more than red herrings?
You have just quoted yourself calling it a self-contained resort.
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A detailed analysis of all available info seeking further info as and when required.
I cannot be sure of the time as I don't find any of the T9 testimony reliable in this regard. I'm not convinced GM physically checked the children at circa 9 pm and I'm not convinced the others were checking as regularly as they claim and/or they were checking round the front via locked doors.
In my opinion it is not possible for you to be in possession of enough information to make judgements such as you express in your posts for the simple reason that, unlike the present investigators of the Judicial Police and Scotland Yard, you do not have all the information to enable you to pontificate.
They have the information and unlike the investigators of 2007 there is evidence available that they have actually used it.
The information in the files available on the internet reflect a moment in time frozen in aspic. There were many more individuals in Luz on the 3rd May 2007 than those you have chosen to 'investigate' and much more information from the time and the subsequent years thereafter.
Neither Mr and Mrs Moyes or Mrs Fenn were checked out at the time despite being in the building from which Madeleine disappeared, or in the days following ... hardly standard police procedure one would imagine.
I think you have fallen into the elephant pit of sceptics which fails to take account that there were more people in Luz than Madeleine's parents and their friends and although they kept quiet about it until a fortnight after the event ... the Smith family.
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In my opinion it is not possible for you to be in possession of enough information to make judgements such as you express in your posts for the simple reason that, unlike the present investigators of the Judicial Police and Scotland Yard, you do not have all the information to enable you to pontificate.
They have the information and unlike the investigators of 2007 there is evidence available that they have actually used it.
The information in the files available on the internet reflect a moment in time frozen in aspic. There were many more individuals in Luz on the 3rd May 2007 than those you have chosen to 'investigate' and much more information from the time and the subsequent years thereafter.
Neither Mr and Mrs Moyes or Mrs Fenn were checked out at the time despite being in the building from which Madeleine disappeared, or in the days following ... hardly standard police procedure one would imagine.
I think you have fallen into the elephant pit of sceptics which fails to take account that there were more people in Luz than Madeleine's parents and their friends and although they kept quiet about it until a fortnight after the event ... the Smith family.
Unlike many of your posts the case is simple and straightforward.
Only a handful of people could possibly know:
- MM was in 5A
- 5A was unsecured
- The McCanns were exiting and entering via the unlocked patio doors
- MM was without adult supervision
- 5A was without a baby monitor
I'm not going to give you any further clues. Consider who knew the above and then filter them out and there's your answer.
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You have just quoted yourself calling it a self-contained resort.
Where have I said OC is a self-contained resort?
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Unlike many of your posts the case is simple and straightforward.
Only a handful of people could possibly know:
- MM was in 5A
- 5A was unsecured
- The McCanns were exiting and entering via the unlocked patio doors
- MM was without adult supervision
- 5A was without a baby monitor
I'm not going to give you any further clues. Consider who knew the above and then filter them out and there's your answer.
On 3rd May I would say the only people who could definitely answer all those questions were MM's parents.
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Unlike many of your posts the case is simple and straightforward.
Only a handful of people could possibly know:
- MM was in 5A
- 5A was unsecured
- The McCanns were exiting and entering via the unlocked patio doors
- MM was without adult supervision
- 5A was without a baby monitor
I'm not going to give you any further clues. Consider who knew the above and then filter them out and there's your answer.
In my opinion I think you incapable of providing clues to any with a smidgen of knowledge of the events surrounding Madeleine's disappearance.
Whether one believes Madeleine was targeted or her abduction was opportunistic I think you are following a tried and already very failed theory in your ruminations.
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Unlike many of your posts the case is simple and straightforward.
Only a handful of people could possibly know:
- MM was in 5A
- 5A was unsecured
- The McCanns were exiting and entering via the unlocked patio doors
- MM was without adult supervision
- 5A was without a baby monitor
I'm not going to give you any further clues. Consider who knew the above and then filter them out and there's your answer.
None of what you have posted may be of any relevance whatsoever...
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None of what you have posted may be of any relevance whatsoever...
Since the advent of mass tourism by British holiday makers to Europe only 1 child has disappeared off the face of the earth. Disappeared from
- an apartment that was unsecured
- an apartment that was without adult supervision
- an apartment that was without a baby monitor
- an apartment that her parents exited and entered several times a night through a set of doors that could not be locked from outside allowing others to know the apartment was unsecured
Of course the above might have nothing to do with MM's disappearance!
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Since the advent of mass tourism by British holiday makers to Europe only 1 child has disappeared off the face of the earth. Disappeared from
- an apartment that was unsecured
- an apartment that was without adult supervision
- an apartment that was without a baby monitor
- an apartment that her parents exited and entered several times a night through a set of doors that could not be locked from outside allowing others to know the apartment was unsecured
Of course the above might have nothing to do with MM's disappearance!
Of course none of the above may have any relevance whatsoever.... Why should it. There are several different scenarios that may be possible
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Of course none of the above may have any relevance whatsoever.... Why should it. There are several different scenarios that may be possible
Such as?
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Such as?
Such as..
If Maddie left the apartment herself
If it was an opportunist crime
The only relevance is maddie being unsupervised
Even if it was planned by a paedophile the apartment may have been entered by the window
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Such as..
If Maddie left the apartment herself
How do you explain the open shutter/window?
If it was an opportunist crime
So the opportunist just stumbled on an apartment containing a child which was unsecured, without adult supervision or a baby monitor? He/she struck very lucky!
The only relevance is maddie being unsupervised
How come?
Even if it was planned by a paedophile the apartment may have been entered by the window
How would a paedophile know MM was in the apartment without adult supervision and/or a baby monitor?
No sign of forced entry or any marks around the window/shutter/on the bed that anyone entered or exited via the window.
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Where have I said OC is a self-contained resort?
In the quote you gave where you quoted yourself.
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In the quote you gave where you quoted yourself.
"The fact a night creche operated in the self-contained resort catering for holiday makers in accommodation scattered about meant that it wasn't an unusual sight to observe men (dads) walking around with babes in arms".
Where have I even mentioned OC?
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"The fact a night creche operated in the self-contained resort catering for holiday makers in accommodation scattered about meant that it wasn't an unusual sight to observe men (dads) walking around with babes in arms".
Where have I even mentioned OC?
Are you really trying trying to argue that the OC night creche wasn't part of the OC?
Of course you claimed the OC was a self-contained resort, which it clearly wasn't.
Time to concede and move on.
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How do you explain the open shutter/window?
So the opportunist just stumbled on an apartment containing a child which was unsecured, without adult supervision or a baby monitor? He/she struck very lucky!
How come?
How would a paedophile know MM was in the apartment without adult supervision and/or a baby monitor?
No sign of forced entry or any marks around the window/shutter/on the bed that anyone entered or exited via the window.
The shutter and window could have been opened from the outside
The intruder did not have to leave any marks... Plus I don't believe the forensic exam was thorough
Everything else you mention may be totally irrelevant..
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Are you really trying trying to argue that the OC night creche wasn't part of the OC?
Of course you claimed the OC was a self-contained resort, which it clearly wasn't.
Time to concede and move on.
I said:
The fact a night creche operated in the self-contained resort catering for holiday makers in accommodation scattered about meant that it wasn't an unusual sight to observe men (dads) walking around with babes in arms".
Self-contained resort in terms of PDL not OC. I made clear the accommodation was scattered about hence men (dads) were walking all over the resort (PDL) with babes in arms.
The night creche was only available to guests dining at Millenium and Tapas.
Nothing to concede on my part.
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I said:
The fact a night creche operated in the self-contained resort catering for holiday makers in accommodation scattered about meant that it wasn't an unusual sight to observe men (dads) walking around with babes in arms".
Self-contained resort in terms of PDL not OC. I made clear the accommodation was scattered about hence men (dads) were walking all over the resort (PDL) with babes in arms.
The night creche was only available to guests dining at Millenium and Tapas.
Nothing to concede on my part.
I did suggest to sil several times a useful exercise would be to go to the OC area at 9 to 9.30 and see just how common a man carrying a child is.... That would have been a useful exercise
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I did suggest to sil several times a useful exercise would be to go to the OC area at 9 to 9.30 and see just how common a man carrying a child is.... That would have been a useful exercise
As I said the resort is self-contained ie everything one would need for a one week break/beach hol. The profile of the guests that particular week seemed to be families with small children so there's no reason anyone would bother with hiring a car for visiting further afield hence men (dads) walked around the resort with babes in arms carrying them to and from the night creche. Would anyone bother with calling a cab if indeed they were readily available in PDL low season for such short journeys?
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From BO:
My phone rang as our food arrived; our baby had woken up. I walked the round trip to collect him from the kiddie club, then back to the restaurant. He kept crying and eventually we left our meal unfinished and walked back again to the club to fetch our sleeping daughter. Jes carried her home in a blanket. The next night we stayed in. It was Thursday, May 3.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
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Holly, this has reference: How would a paedophile know MM was in the apartment without adult supervision and/or a baby monitor?
It can be achieved by means of a very useful research tool: diachronic observation.
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Professional criminals are mostly not intellectually challenged.
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Holly, this has reference: How would a paedophile know MM was in the apartment without adult supervision and/or a baby monitor?
It can be achieved by means of a very useful research tool: diachronic observation.
Well we don't know the motive was sexual but what I'm saying is that any would be abductor observing from a distance could not know for certain that 5A was without adult supervision/baby monitor.
Of course some had the benefit of not just observing visually but aurally too and from this they could deduce MM was indeed in 5A without adult supervision and/or a baby monitor. Such information was certainly imparted to a.n other but its not know how far the information travelled and in which direction(s).
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John and Myster are both in receipt of my full theory and suspects. I'm pretty sure both will agree it is highly plausible and possible. It certainly makes the cases against the likes of RM, McCanns and the others who at some time have been in PJ sights weak to say the least.
So on the assumption I'm right how embarrassing for the Met after the Carl Beech 'Nick' fiasco.
Prior to looking at this case I was on the Jill Dando board here. I outlined my theory/suspects to John. In the coming hours/day, I'm in the middle of big gardening project, I will forward copies of emails to John and Myster sent to various people, (eg QC's who acted for Barry George), including the MET and email I received from a MET commander.
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John and Myster are both in receipt of my full theory and suspects. I'm pretty sure both will agree it is highly plausible and possible. It certainly makes the cases against the likes of RM, McCanns and the others who at some time have been in PJ sights weak to say the least.
So on the assumption I'm right how embarrassing for the Met after the Carl Beech 'Nick' fiasco.
Prior to looking at this case I was on the Jill Dando board here. I outlined my theory/suspects to John. In the coming hours/day, I'm in the middle of big gardening project, I will forward copies of emails to John and Myster sent to various people, (eg QC's who acted for Barry George), including the MET and email I received from a MET commander.
No one has ever said your theory would not be a possibility... Having a possible theory is not solving the case... The fact you don't realise that speaks volumes
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No one has ever said your theory would not be a possibility... Having a possible theory is not solving the case... The fact you don't realise that speaks volumes
The fact you have no knowledge of my theory/suspects means you are not in a position to know how strong or weak it is.
Its not just a general theory but multiple pieces fitting together. And I wouldn't mind betting most will go 'Oh yeah why didn't I see that/think of that...' Imo you spent too long on Grime and his dogs. Similar to G-Unit dissecting T9 wit stats. You guys end up not seeing the wood for the trees! 8)-)))
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The fact you have no knowledge of my theory/suspects means you are not in a position to know how strong or weak it is.
Its not just a general theory but multiple pieces fitting together. And I wouldn't mind betting most will go 'Oh yeah why didn't I see that/think of that...' Imo you spent too long on Grime and his dogs. Similar to G-Unit dissecting T9 wit stats. You guys end up not seeing the wood for the trees! 8)-)))
I know your theory is based on evidence in the public domain and therefore is insufficient to reliably support any theory above many.
You criticise me and say posters, can't see the wood for the trees... I think you totally overestimate your own abilities..
Google Dunning Kruger..
What you have is a theory unsupported by real evidence... I'm a lot smarter than you may think... Let's see if you can prove me wrong
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The fact you have no knowledge of my theory/suspects means you are not in a position to know how strong or weak it is.
Its not just a general theory but multiple pieces fitting together. And I wouldn't mind betting most will go 'Oh yeah why didn't I see that/think of that...' Imo you spent too long on Grime and his dogs. Similar to G-Unit dissecting T9 wit stats. You guys end up not seeing the wood for the trees! 8)-)))
Have you been brushing up on 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'? &^^&*
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The fact you have no knowledge of my theory/suspects means you are not in a position to know how strong or weak it is.
Its not just a general theory but multiple pieces fitting together. And I wouldn't mind betting most will go 'Oh yeah why didn't I see that/think of that...' Imo you spent too long on Grime and his dogs. Similar to G-Unit dissecting T9 wit stats. You guys end up not seeing the wood for the trees! 8)-)))
Witness statements are evidence, but not necessarily truth. In my opinion you have chosen to believe parts of those statements without knowing if they're true or not. Can you prove beyond reasonable doubt that the unlocked patio doors were used by the McCanns to check their children every evening? I think not.
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Witness statements are evidence, but not necessarily truth. In my opinion you have chosen to believe parts of those statements without knowing if they're true or not. Can you prove beyond reasonable doubt that the unlocked patio doors were used by the McCanns to check their children every evening? I think not.
How did MO gain access to the apartment?
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Through the patio doors, VS.
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Through the patio doors, VS.
I know, I’m just curious to know why this is dismissed by G-Unit as evidence that they were left unlocked.
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John and Myster are both in receipt of my full theory and suspects. I'm pretty sure both will agree it is highly plausible and possible. It certainly makes the cases against the likes of RM, McCanns and the others who at some time have been in PJ sights weak to say the least.
So on the assumption I'm right how embarrassing for the Met after the Carl Beech 'Nick' fiasco.
Prior to looking at this case I was on the Jill Dando board here. I outlined my theory/suspects to John. In the coming hours/day, I'm in the middle of big gardening project, I will forward copies of emails to John and Myster sent to various people, (eg QC's who acted for Barry George), including the MET and email I received from a MET commander.
If John and Myster think your theory is pants a) are they going to tell you and b) are you going to tell us they said so?
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I know, I’m just curious to know why this is dismissed by G-Unit as evidence that they were left unlocked.
It's evidence that they were unlocked on 3rd May at 9:30pm. There is no evidence they were unlocked at other times.
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If John and Myster think your theory is pants a) are they going to tell you and b) are you going to tell us they said so?
John and Myster think my Bamber theories are a) pants and have told me and b) have told the forum. Why would this case be any different?
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Have you been brushing up on 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'? &^^&*
Indicative by the fact my post count v 'likes' is the lowest on the board 8(8-))
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John and Myster think my Bamber theories are a) pants and have told me and b) have told the forum. Why would this case be any different?
I wasn’t aware of that.
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It's evidence that they were unlocked on 3rd May at 9:30pm. There is no evidence they were unlocked at other times.
Why does Holly’s theory depend on the patio doors being unlocked at other times?
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I wasn’t aware of that.
I was the only regular contributor to the Bamber board who believes in his innocence.
This case is different in that at this moment in time it remains unsolved. The Bamber case imo involves Britain's worst miscarriage of justice since capital punishment. Bamber was convicted in 1986 at the age of 25; he's now 58 yoa and serving a whole life tariff. He spent a year on remand so has been in jail a total of 34 years.
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I was the only regular contributor to the Bamber board who believes in his innocence.
This case is different in that at this moment in time it remains unsolved. The Bamber case imo involves Britain's worst miscarriage of justice since capital punishment. Bamber was convicted in 1986 at the age of 25; he's now 58 yoa and serving a whole life tariff. He spent a year on remand so has been in jail a total of 34 years.
So what have John and Myster said about your Mccann theory
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So what have John and Myster said about your Mccann theory
Are you going to present it on the member's only board?
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Why does Holly’s theory depend on the patio doors being unlocked at other times?
As I understood it, the 'abductor' watched the parents using those doors to check on the children every evening.
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Are you going to present it on the member's only board?
Why are you asking me
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As I understood it, the 'abductor' watched the parents using those doors to check on the children every evening.
Didn’t they?
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Didn’t they?
I don't know and no-one else can prove they did.
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I don't know and no-one else can prove they did.
Out of interest how would you go about proving such a thing, to your satisfaction?
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Out of interest how would you go about proving such a thing, to your satisfaction?
I've seen no reported sightings of the parents using the patio doors to carry out their checks. Even their friends professed not to know.
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I've seen no reported sightings of the parents using the patio doors to carry out their checks. Even their friends professed not to know.
And if there was a reported sighting of the parents using the patio doors and if their friends said they did, would that be the proof you needed?
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So what have John and Myster said about your Mccann theory
Myster has been in receipt of since Wed but John only since yesterday as I was awaiting an email address.
I wrote it all out by hand initially and then emailed. My writing is average size and I filled nearly 5 A4 pages. Its quite comprehensive so they will no doubt want to ponder it!
If it was pants in all probability Myster would have been on to say as much.
In the wake of the Carl Beech fiasco I'm considering sending it to Katharine Viner, editor, at the Guardian as potentially if I'm right it once again calls into question competency at the MET.
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Myster has been in receipt of since Wed but John only since yesterday as I was awaiting an email address.
I wrote it all out by hand initially and then emailed. My writing is average size and I filled nearly 5 A4 pages. Its quite comprehensive so they will no doubt want to ponder it!
If it was pants in all probability Myster would have been on to say as much.
In the wake of the Carl Beech fiasco I'm considering sending it to Katharine Viner, editor, at the Guardian as potentially if I'm right it once again calls into question competency at the MET.
It's a theory of which there are many... Nothing more imo
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It's a theory of which there are many... Nothing more imo
You have no knowledge of it whatsoever so how can you possibly know?
And it isn't just a 'theory'. It's a detailed account of what happened, how, who was involved etc.
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Until proved it remains a theory however detailed it might be.
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SY & the PJ have spent umpteen years & in excess of 12 million squids investigating this case when all they needed to do was join this forum, message Holly & the case would be solved @)(++(*
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You have no knowledge of it whatsoever so how can you possibly know?
And it isn't just a 'theory'. It's a detailed account of what happened, how, who was involved etc.
I know because you only have access to what is in the public domain and there is precious little evidence. You are making a totally unsubstantiated claim...its quite a reasonable stance to disbeleive in the circumstances. I presume Myster is just being polite having had 4 days to read it...lets see what he says. Im 100% convinced you are wrong to claim to have solved the case ....I repeat ...what you have is a theory. We will see who is corrct shortly...hopefully
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You have no knowledge of it whatsoever so how can you possibly know?
And it isn't just a 'theory'. It's a detailed account of what happened, how, who was involved etc.
How can it possibly be a detailed account of what happened?
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You have no knowledge of it whatsoever so how can you possibly know?
And it isn't just a 'theory'. It's a detailed account of what happened, how, who was involved etc.
its a detailed account of what you think happened with no evidence....Myster has had this sensational revelation for four days and hasnt bothered to mention it...Johns had this supposed sensational revealtion for two days and hasnt mentioned it...SY have had it for 3 months...how long have the PJ had it...do you think your claim sounds in any way credible?
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its a detailed account of what you think happened with no evidence....Myster has had this sensational revelation for four days and hasnt bothered to mention it...Johns had this supposed sensational revealtion for two days and hasnt mentioned it...SY have had it for 3 months...how long have the PJ had it...do you think your claim sounds in any way credible?
Perhaps they are all just gobsmacked by the brilliance of the account that they are lost for words?
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Unfortunately for Holly, my opinion hasn't changed, even though I've given her theory serious thought and consideration. The problem we have is in revealing names and implicating people (who imo are completely innocent) on an open public forum, when most here are itching to know who she suspects and why she is so insistent on them being responsible for MBM's disappearance.
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It was Mrs Fenn wasn't it.
I always knew she dunnit.
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Unfortunately for Holly, my opinion hasn't changed, even though I've given her theory serious thought and consideration. The problem we have is in revealing names and implicating people (who imo are completely innocent) on an open public forum, when most here are itching to know who she suspects and why she is so insistent on them being responsible for MBM's disappearance.
as you say its a theory...and you obviously dont agree with her theory. Im not really itching to know who here suspects are because its obvious her suspicions are not based on facts
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Unfortunately for Holly, my opinion hasn't changed, even though I've given her theory serious thought and consideration. The problem we have is in revealing names and implicating people (who imo are completely innocent) on an open public forum, when most here are itching to know who she suspects and why she is so insistent on them being responsible for MBM's disappearance.
Her suspect is a petite female holidaymaker. That’s enough to know that the theory is pretty pants IMO.
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Unfortunately for Holly, my opinion hasn't changed, even though I've given her theory serious thought and consideration. The problem we have is in revealing names and implicating people (who imo are completely innocent) on an open public forum, when most here are itching to know who she suspects and why she is so insistent on them being responsible for MBM's disappearance.
I was horrified to hear that a potentially innocent person had been named to the police, but at least that will go no further. It would be completely irresponsible in my opinion to name names on the Forum.
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I was horrified to hear that a potentially innocent person had been named to the police, but at least that will go no further. It would be completely irresponsible in my opinion to name names on the Forum.
Would you have been so horrified if the theory had put forward one of the Tapas group? I doubt it!
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SY & the PJ have spent umpteen years & in excess of 12 million squids investigating this case when all they needed to do was join this forum, message Holly & the case would be solved @)(++(*
Why such faith in SY after the damning report by high court judge Sir Richard Henriques into the Carl Beech case?
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I was horrified to hear that a potentially innocent person had been named to the police, but at least that will go no further. It would be completely irresponsible in my opinion to name names on the Forum.
'Horrified' that's a bit strong isn't it especially given the Carl Beech fiasco?
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Unfortunately for Holly, my opinion hasn't changed, even though I've given her theory serious thought and consideration. The problem we have is in revealing names and implicating people (who imo are completely innocent) on an open public forum, when most here are itching to know who she suspects and why she is so insistent on them being responsible for MBM's disappearance.
I've no idea what your case related views are?
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I know because you only have access to what is in the public domain and there is precious little evidence. You are making a totally unsubstantiated claim...its quite a reasonable stance to disbeleive in the circumstances. I presume Myster is just being polite having had 4 days to read it...lets see what he says. Im 100% convinced you are wrong to claim to have solved the case ....I repeat ...what you have is a theory. We will see who is corrct shortly...hopefully
4 days? I doubt Myster lives and breathes the case! I've no idea what his views are on the info I sent as he has yet to provide feedback. And even though he disagrees it doesn't mean he's right and I'm wrong. Remember Myster and I have opposing views on Bamber who has some heavyweights behind him: QC's practicing and non-practicing and a former Tory mp to name but a few.
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Myster has kindly forwarded an email setting out his reasons why he disagrees but guess what I disagree 8)--))
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Her suspect is a petite female holidaymaker. That’s enough to know that the theory is pretty pants IMO.
So it has to be male, spotty and ugly then?
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as you say its a theory...and you obviously dont agree with her theory. Im not really itching to know who here suspects are because its obvious her suspicions are not based on facts
So Myster doesn't agree a bit like saying G-Unit doesn't agree with you!
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So it has to be male, spotty and ugly then?
Judging by the dozens of other examples of stranger abductions, particularly in cases where children have been taken from their homes, it would seem male is almost certainly a prerequisite, yes.
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'Horrified' that's a bit strong isn't it especially given the Carl Beech fiasco?
Yes, horrified. Especially if the Met are as suggestible as the Carl Beech fiaso suggests. They could be digging into the life of a perfectly innocent person as we speak.
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Yes, horrified. Especially if the Met are as suggestible as the Carl Beech fiaso suggests. They could be digging into the life of a perfectly innocent person as we speak.
When they did 'dig into the lives' of the prominent names suggested to them by Carl Beech aka Nick they discovered there were no cases to be answered.
Is it your suggestion they should have ignored the accusations being made by a member of the public without carrying through on due process?
Particularly when Carl Beech and others had been encouraged by receipt of a huge payout from the Savile estate with very little effort apart from perhaps giving a dog a bad name which seems to work fine in kangaroo courts.
I await with bated breath your opening post in the new "Savile is innocent ... OK!!!!!" thread which your post suggests you must be beavering away at even as we speak.
We are the UK Justice Forum when all is said and done, are we not?
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When they did 'dig into the lives' of the prominent names suggested to them by Carl Beech aka Nick they discovered there were no cases to be answered.
Is it your suggestion they should have ignored the accusations being made by a member of the public without carrying through on due process?
Particularly when Carl Beech and others had been encouraged by receipt of a huge payout from the Savile estate with very little effort apart from perhaps giving a dog a bad name which seems to work fine in kangaroo courts.
I await with bated breath your opening post in the new "Savile is innocent ... OK!!!!!" thread which your post suggests you must be beavering away at even as we speak.
We are the UK Justice Forum when all is said and done, are we not?
Are you suggesting that being a member of the UK Justice Forum gives people carte blanche to accuse others of committing a crime?
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Yes, horrified. Especially if the Met are as suggestible as the Carl Beech fiaso suggests. They could be digging into the life of a perfectly innocent person as we speak.
The advice from the College of Policing to all police forces post the Beech enquiry is that all complainants of abuse should be treated, as victims and believed subject to an investigation . I think it's quite important that the police should continue to do this
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Are you suggesting that being a member of the UK Justice Forum gives people carte blanche to accuse others of committing a crime?
It seems to be the case regarding the McCanns
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Judging by the dozens of other examples of stranger abductions, particularly in cases where children have been taken from their homes, it would seem male is almost certainly a prerequisite, yes.
But not always so best to keep an open mind.
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It seems to be the case regarding the McCanns
Where specifically?
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The advice from the College of Policing to all police forces post the Beech enquiry is that all complainants of abuse should be treated, as victims and believed subject to an investigation . I think it's quite important that the police should continue to do this
Quite right too,but it seems as if the "nick" review should have concluded long before it did it,with what was known to be rubbish.
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Yes, horrified. Especially if the Met are as suggestible as the Carl Beech fiaso suggests. They could be digging into the life of a perfectly innocent person as we speak.
They could also be digging into the lives of MM's abductors too!
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They could also be digging into the lives of MM's abductors too!
There's every chance thats been done already, imo of course.
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Are you suggesting that being a member of the UK Justice Forum gives people carte blanche to accuse others of committing a crime?
Many here make it quite clear they believe the McCanns/T7 are involved in MM's disappearance despite the fact there's no evidence and the logistics make it highly implausible.
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There's every chance thats been done already, imo of course.
Pre or post my emails?
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Pre or post my emails?
Way before.
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Many here make it quite clear they believe the McCanns/T7 are involved in MM's disappearance despite the fact there's no evidence and the logistics make it highly implausible.
I'm pretty sure everyone stops short of accusing anyone of anything. As Gerry says, he's happy for people theorise and purport.
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So Myster doesn't agree a bit like saying G-Unit doesn't agree with you!
As I've said... You have a theory... You haven't solved the case... You obviously didn't have the evidence to convince myster... So you don't have the evidence... Just a theory
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Pre or post my emails?
10 years before. And they will have received 1000's of similar emails / letters / tip offs from 1000's of other sources.
Infinite monkeys and all that - the truth may have been posited several times.
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Pre or post my emails?
What I'd like to know is why after all this time a theory like yours would never have crossed the minds of the PJ or SY and all of a sudden your's is the game changer.
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Are you suggesting that being a member of the UK Justice Forum gives people carte blanche to accuse others of committing a crime?
What an obscure misinterpretation of my post ... oh dear👀
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Many here make it quite clear they believe the McCanns/T7 are involved in MM's disappearance despite the fact there's no evidence and the logistics make it highly implausible.
According to Portugal's Supreme Court there was 'insufficient evidence', not 'no evidence'.
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According to Portugal's Supreme Court there was 'insufficient evidence', not 'no evidence'.
according to De Carmo... Theres no evidence
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according to De Carmo... Theres no evidence
Do you believe him?
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according to De Carmo... Theres no evidence
Do you think it was a mistake to have the McCann couple constituted as arguidos in September 2007?
Obviously, I will not answer that question. But what I can say, just as I did back in 2011 and 2013, is that Maddie's parents are not suspects. That statement remains: the parents are not suspects. Period.
Pedro do Carmo: Expresso
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8172.msg402993#msg402993
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Do you believe him?
He is quite adamant about it ... and I would say he firmly believes it ... bearing in mind he was familiar with all the available evidence and the benefit of hindsight.
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Do you believe him?
Based on all the other facts in the case... No real evidence... Yes
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No evidence is insufficient evidence
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If either the PJ or SY uncover evidence,does the UK justice forum expect them to name suspects for their benefit the members?
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according to De Carmo... Theres no evidence
Do you have a link to him saying that?
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Do you have a link to him saying that?
You've seen it many times
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Yes, horrified. Especially if the Met are as suggestible as the Carl Beech fiaso suggests. They could be digging into the life of a perfectly innocent person as we speak.
Erm...what is your problem with this? Should they only be digging into the lives of people they pre-suppose to be guilty?? Oh wait...
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According to Portugal's Supreme Court there was 'insufficient evidence', not 'no evidence'.
Do youthink the police were wrong to be digging into perfectly innocent lives in this case then?
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Erm...what is your problem with this? Should they only be digging into the lives of oeople they pre-suppose to be guilty?? Oh wait...
Only the protagonists who's surname begins with 'M'.
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Only the protagonists who's surname begins with 'M'.
Yeah, of course, silly me.
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Yeah, of course, silly me.
Funny that!
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According to Portugal's Supreme Court there was 'insufficient evidence', not 'no evidence'.
Meaning what? They were insufficiently innocent I suppose. (&^&
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As I've said... You have a theory... You haven't solved the case... You obviously didn't have the evidence to convince myster... So you don't have the evidence... Just a theory
Some criminal trials result in acquittals. What does this tell you?
Some criminal trials result in majority verdicts as opposed to a unanimous verdict. What does this tell you?
Some criminal trials result in wrongful convictions which are subsequently overturned many years later in the appeal courts often having already been heard in the appeal courts. What does this tell you?
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If either the PJ or SY uncover evidence,does the UK justice forum expect them to name suspects for their benefit the members?
For all any of us know significant developments may have taken place. I believe my suspects are expats living in Algarve so given the secrecy surrounding Portuguese criminal cases how/when would we expect to learn of any developments
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Some criminal trials result in acquittals. What does this tell you?
Some criminal trials result in majority verdicts as opposed to a unanimous verdict. What does this tell you?
Some criminal trials result in wrongful convictions which are subsequently overturned many years later in the appeal courts often having already been heard in the appeal courts. What does this tell you?
It doesn't tell me anything I don't already know.... I know you haven't solved this crime...your post reinforces and supports my belief...
waht it tells me is even when the professionals arrest someone...put them on trial...they may still not have solved the crime. But you have...you seem to have already decided your suspects are guilty....
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It doesn't tell me anything I don't already know.... I know you haven't solved this crime...your post reinforces and supports my belief...
How can you be so sure I haven't solved the case and why are you so keen for this to be the case?
waht it tells me is even when the professionals arrest someone...put them on trial...they may still not have solved the crime. But you have...you seem to have already decided your suspects are guilty....
Exactly. It shows even in cases where most, lay and professional, think its a slam dunk whether for or against not everyone agrees regardless of how the case is built ie forensics/circumstantial.
Myster hasn't said he totally disagrees. He said he thinks its unlikely based on character type. I thought the same initially but then I kept coming back to it and all the pieces fit. I think a lot of cases rise and fall based on pre-conceived ideas about the likely perpetrators of the crime. In this case people are either cynical about the 'doctors' or they're on the look out for creepy looking men lurking in the shadows!
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How can you be so sure I haven't solved the case and why are you so keen for this to be the case?
Exactly. It shows even in cases where most, lay and professional, think its a slam dunk whether for or against not everyone agrees regardless of how the case is built ie forensics/circumstantial.
Myster hasn't said he totally disagrees. He said he thinks its unlikely based on character type. I thought the same initially but then I kept coming back to it and all the pieces fit. I think a lot of cases rise and fall based on pre-conceived ideas about the likely perpetrators of the crime. In this case people are either cynical about the 'doctors' or they're on the look out for creepy looking men lurking in the shadows!
I would be very happy if you had solved the case but the idea that you have us just plain daft imo
To have solved a case you would need to be able to convince a jury... Yet the first person to see your theory isn't convinced
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How can you be so sure I haven't solved the case and why are you so keen for this to be the case?
Exactly. It shows even in cases where most, lay and professional, think its a slam dunk whether for or against not everyone agrees regardless of how the case is built ie forensics/circumstantial.
Myster hasn't said he totally disagrees. He said he thinks its unlikely based on character type. I thought the same initially but then I kept coming back to it and all the pieces fit. I think a lot of cases rise and fall based on pre-conceived ideas about the likely perpetrators of the crime. In this case people are either cynical about the 'doctors' or they're on the look out for creepy looking men lurking in the shadows!
some people take things literal look at the jon benet ramsey case that hasent been solved and it happned 23 years ago many still suspect the parents or her brother in that case
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How can you be so sure I haven't solved the case and why are you so keen for this to be the case?
Exactly. It shows even in cases where most, lay and professional, think its a slam dunk whether for or against not everyone agrees regardless of how the case is built ie forensics/circumstantial.
Myster hasn't said he totally disagrees. He said he thinks its unlikely based on character type. I thought the same initially but then I kept coming back to it and all the pieces fit. I think a lot of cases rise and fall based on pre-conceived ideas about the likely perpetrators of the crime. In this case people are either cynical about the 'doctors' or they're on the look out for creepy looking men lurking in the shadows!
What pieces fit? What do you know about the character, lifestyle, movements and whereabouts of your suspect in 2007 that couldn’t possibly apply to others who were in PdL that night? What is the killer piece of proof? There won’t be one of course...
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What pieces fit? What do you know about the character, lifestyle, movements and whereabouts of your suspect in 2007 that couldn’t possibly apply to others who were in PdL that night? What is the killer piece of proof? There won’t be one of course...
Most criminal cases that reach trial do not have a 'killer piece of proof'. Many are made up of entirely circumstantial evidence.
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And what 'killer piece of proof' existed against RM when he was made an arguido?
And what 'killer piece of proof' existed against the McCanns when they were made arguidos?
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And what 'killer piece of proof' existed against RM when he was made an arguido?
And what 'killer piece of proof' existed against the McCanns when they were made arguidos?
The same that as that which the three amigos were made arguido's back in 2014.
That status infers rights not necessarily meaning they are suspects.
Its also possible for someone to declare themselves arguido thus making themselves available of those right's.
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Most criminal cases that reach trial do not have a 'killer piece of proof'. Many are made up of entirely circumstantial evidence.
In order for you to be 100% certain you are right I would suggest that you need 100% proof. Do you?
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In order for you to be 100% certain you are right I would suggest that you need 100% proof. Do you?
Murder convictions with out a body must rely on circumstantial surely.
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And what 'killer piece of proof' existed against RM when he was made an arguido?
And what 'killer piece of proof' existed against the McCanns when they were made arguidos?
There was no requirement for 100% proof to make these people arguidos, in fact no evidence at all was enough. You however claim to be certain you’re right, so you must surely have some cast iron proof?
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Murder convictions with out a body must rely on circumstantial surely.
So what?
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Most criminal cases that reach trial do not have a 'killer piece of proof'. Many are made up of entirely circumstantial evidence.
Could you answer the other part of my question please.
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The same that as that which the three amigos were made arguido's back in 2014.
That status infers rights not necessarily meaning they are suspects.
Its also possible for someone to declare themselves arguido thus making themselves available of those right's.
Yes I appreciate that. Arguido status provides the arguido with enhanced rights eg access to legal representation.
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There was no requirement for 100% proof to make these people arguidos, in fact no evidence at all was enough. You however claim to be certain you’re right, so you must surely have some cast iron proof?
Nothing relies on 100% proof, even a full life tariff. At the end of a trial a defendant is either found not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
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Could you answer the other part of my question please.
No because to do so I would have to reveal too much.
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No because to do so I would have to reveal too much.
How very convenient.
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Nothing relies on 100% proof, even a full life tariff. At the end of a trial a defendant is either found not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
Surely there is something above all other elements that makes your suspect stand out above all others that were there that night? Was she senn carrying a small child answering Madeleine’s description? Did she leave the resort hurriedly the next day before her stay was due to end? Did she express longing for a blonde haired girl to another guest? Was she ever seen in close proximity to Madeleiene before her disappearance? Did she make attempts to befriend her parents? Was she seen observing the patio doors to the apartment? Come on, there must be something!!
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No because to do so I would have to reveal too much.
You have people who you identify as suspects.... You have not solved the case... Until those people, are convicted the case is not solved
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Nothing relies on 100% proof, even a full life tariff. At the end of a trial a defendant is either found not guilty or guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
And do you have any reasonable doubt about your beliefs?
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How very convenient.
Not for you.
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Not for you.
Of course not for me, convenient for you, in that you are able to make ludicrous claims that cannot be tested or debated. We just have to accept that you have solved the case or shut up.
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Of course not for me, convenient for you, in that you are able to make ludicrous claims that cannot be tested or debated. We just have to accept that you have solved the case or shut up.
You don't have to accept anything and I'm sure nothing I say, or don't say, will make you or anyone else here 'shut up'!
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You don't have to accept anything and I'm sure nothing I say, or don't say, will make you or anyone else here 'shut up'!
You announce to the world that you have solved the case after six weeks of studying it and then shut down any attempt to discuss it further. If your efforts were so important and serious and secrecy absolutely paramount you should have kept quiet about it.
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This is the second example on here of what I think of as a 'secret squirrel' theory. These theories can be criticised but not debunked because those proposing them claim to know more, but refuse to share their knowledge. Both theorists claim to have contacted OG, but don't offer any evidence that they have done that.
In my opinion both theorists enjoy the attention they get by being mysterious.
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You announce to the world that you have solved the case after six weeks of studying it and then shut down any attempt to discuss it further. If your efforts were so important and serious and secrecy absolutely paramount you should have kept quiet about it.
I agree, but some people just can't help themselves
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You announce to the world that you have solved the case after six weeks of studying it and then shut down any attempt to discuss it further. If your efforts were so important and serious and secrecy absolutely paramount you should have kept quiet about it.
If in doubt, throw in the odd insult.
You could, of course, let sleeping dogs lie, but that does not seem to be in your repertoire.
ZZZ! ZZZ! ZZZ!
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You have people who you identify as suspects.... You have not solved the case... Until those people, are convicted the case is not solved
Fair enough she has presented her theory. Now it is up to MPS/PJ to investigate.
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Fair enough she has presented her theory. Now it is up to MPS/PJ to investigate.
Or not as the case may be.
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No personal attacks please.
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Or not as the case may be.
I think any theory is worth looking at.
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Fair enough she has presented her theory. Now it is up to MPS/PJ to investigate.
Remembering of course that there are no-go areas in this investigation.
IMO the truth of what happened to Maddie is contained within the threads of this forum, the question is which ones.
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I think any theory is worth looking at.
If I were to write in and say John Doe from Ecclefechan is holding Madeleine as a housekeeper,do you think OG would investigate or dismiss it for what it is.
Apologies if there is indeed a John Doe residing up in Ecclefechan.
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Remembering of course that there are no-go areas in this investigation.
IMO the truth of what happened to Maddie is contained within the threads of this forum, the question is which ones.
The sticking point is imo,how did she leave 5a.
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This is the second example on here of what I think of as a 'secret squirrel' theory. These theories can be criticised but not debunked because those proposing them claim to know more, but refuse to share their knowledge. Both theorists claim to have contacted OG, but don't offer any evidence that they have done that.
In my opinion both theorists enjoy the attention they get by being mysterious.
I sent my theory/suspects to John and Myster. I've had some problem sending emails to John so have now sent via the pm facility.
With regard to evidence that I've contacted OG I will send the automated response email received from OG to Myster.
If I enjoy the attention then why I have waited so long to make such a claim. Don't forget I've been a very active member of this forum far longer than you guys. There's more to UKJF than the MM board. Some have made all sorts of claims re Bamber eg claims of a 'forensic evidence breakthrough' something I haven't done. I could say a lot more about the Bamber case with regards to contact with forensics but I haven't. Imo many here have become tunnel visioned and can't see the wood for the trees. I've not seen any of the regulars here on other boards?
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I sent my theory/suspects to John and Myster. I've had some problem sending emails to John so have now sent via the pm facility.
With regard to evidence that I've contacted OG I will send the automated response email received from OG to Myster.
If I enjoy the attention then why I have waited so long to make such a claim. Don't forget I've been a very active member of this forum far longer than you guys. There's more to UKJF than the MM board. Some have made all sorts of claims re Bamber eg claims of a 'forensic evidence breakthrough' something I haven't done. I could say a lot more about the Bamber case with regards to contact with forensics but I haven't. Imo many here have become tunnel visioned and can't see the wood for the trees. I've not seen any of the regulars here on other boards?
It really is quiote simple...you THINK you have solved the case....I think thats a ridiculous claim and questions your credibility
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You announce to the world that you have solved the case after six weeks of studying it and then shut down any attempt to discuss it further. If your efforts were so important and serious and secrecy absolutely paramount you should have kept quiet about it.
Oh come off it G-Unit...announce to the world you mean the board here with about a dozen or so regular contributors and a hundred odd guests that Davel has written off as bots! I haven't seen any headlines in The Sun yet 'Former Bond Girl Solves The Maddie Mystery'!
Who said my efforts were so important and serious and secrecy absolutely paramount?
The world moves on. We're basically now all connected thanks to the internet and in this case with the release of the PJ files its pretty simply to work out what has happened imo.
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It really is quiote simple...you THINK you have solved the case....I think thats a ridiculous claim and questions your credibility
And I think you overuse the word ridiculous to the point anyone reading your posts will have become desensitised to it.
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If I were to write in and say John Doe from Ecclefechan is holding Madeleine as a housekeeper,do you think OG would investigate or dismiss it for what it is.
Apologies if there is indeed a John Doe residing up in Ecclefechan.
OG and anyone tasked with investigating on a professional basis will surely consider all info based on merit.
Take for example the case of Joanna Yeates in the early days investigators had Christopher Jefferies in sight and yet he was nothing other than a completely law abiding citizen who just happened to by JY's landlord and lived in close proximity to her.
What I see in a lot of these cases is prejudice where potential perps are discriminated against either negatively or positively. Professionals and lay people quickly form opinions about others and woe betide anyone who is slightly different. In the case of CJ he was perceived by many as an eccentric English teacher with a quirky dress sense, an unkempt hairstyle and grubby fingernails. Whereas the true perp was Vincent Tabak a highly qualified engineer with a clean cut look about him.
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And I think you overuse the word ridiculous to the point anyone reading your posts will have become desensitised to it.
I've already become desensiticised to the phrase 'can't see the wood for the trees'. 8((()*/
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OG and anyone tasked with investigating on a professional basis will surely consider all info based on merit.
Take for example the case of Joanna Yeates in the early days investigators had Christopher Jefferies in sight and yet he was nothing other than a completely law abiding citizen who just happened to by JY's landlord and lived in close proximity to her.
What I see in a lot of these cases is prejudice where potential perps are discriminated against either negatively or positively. Professionals and lay people quickly form opinions about others and woe betide anyone who is slightly different. In the case of CJ he was perceived by many as an eccentric English teacher with a quirky dress sense, an unkempt hairstyle and grubby fingernails. Whereas the true perp was Vincent Tabak a highly qualified engineer with a clean cut look about him.
The red tops went after Jefferies,enough said.
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OG and anyone tasked with investigating on a professional basis will surely consider all info based on merit.
Take for example the case of Joanna Yeates in the early days investigators had Christopher Jefferies in sight and yet he was nothing other than a completely law abiding citizen who just happened to by JY's landlord and lived in close proximity to her.
What I see in a lot of these cases is prejudice where potential perps are discriminated against either negatively or positively. Professionals and lay people quickly form opinions about others and woe betide anyone who is slightly different. In the case of CJ he was perceived by many as an eccentric English teacher with a quirky dress sense, an unkempt hairstyle and grubby fingernails. Whereas the true perp was Vincent Tabak a highly qualified engineer with a clean cut look about him.
I'll ask again you may have missed the question,what is it about your theory that is unlikely to have been looked at before,what do you suppose is the key in your theory.
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I'll ask again you may have missed the question,what is it about your theory that is unlikely to have been looked at before,what do you suppose is the key in your theory.
I don't believe my suspects have been considered by investigators as potential perps on the basis they put themselves forward as someone who could potentially assist.
Info provided by my suspects is contradictory and inconsistent. Coupled with the fact it doesn't match info found elsewhere in the public domain eg electoral roll.
On paper my suspects look unlikely child abductors regardless of motive which obviously I can't be sure. I think they've been allowed to slip under the radar.
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This is the second example on here of what I think of as a 'secret squirrel' theory. These theories can be criticised but not debunked because those proposing them claim to know more, but refuse to share their knowledge. Both theorists claim to have contacted OG, but don't offer any evidence that they have done that.
In my opinion both theorists enjoy the attention they get by being mysterious.
(&^&
You keep it quiet Holly. And Anthro as well. Anyone else too.
There are children being abducted and I worry that I may have already said more than was wise. SY were definitely interested in my main theory about what happened afterwards
I hope that one of us is right.
it would be nice if it was me, but the important thing is not WHO solved it ... but that children are saved and no more taken
I wonder if the person you have identified is related somehow to my main suspect. If she is, there are a number of pointers connecting her to the case and, of course, to my suspect. But we shall never know unless SY charge someone, some people, cos I aint sharing..
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I don't believe my suspects have been considered by investigators as potential perps on the basis they put themselves forward as someone who could potentially assist.
Info provided by my suspects is contradictory and inconsistent. Coupled with the fact it doesn't match info found elsewhere in the public domain eg electoral roll.
On paper my suspects look unlikely child abductors regardless of motive which obviously I can't be sure. I think they've been allowed to slip under the radar.
Thank you.
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OG and anyone tasked with investigating on a professional basis will surely consider all info based on merit.
Take for example the case of Joanna Yeates in the early days investigators had Christopher Jefferies in sight and yet he was nothing other than a completely law abiding citizen who just happened to by JY's landlord and lived in close proximity to her.
What I see in a lot of these cases is prejudice where potential perps are discriminated against either negatively or positively. Professionals and lay people quickly form opinions about others and woe betide anyone who is slightly different. In the case of CJ he was perceived by many as an eccentric English teacher with a quirky dress sense, an unkempt hairstyle and grubby fingernails. Whereas the true perp was Vincent Tabak a highly qualified engineer with a clean cut look about him.
Police tasked with investigating any child disappearance should look at every possibility regardless of how implausible it might be.
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Police tasked with investigating any child disappearance should look at every possibility regardless of how implausible it might be.
Yes I agree. From all that I've read so far (excl T9) the potential perps all seem to be male ranging from RM to ultra creepy looking men with pimples and buck teeth 8)><( through to high profile paedophiles.
What about females? What about seemingly 'normal' looking males? The perp(s) might have been suffering from some mild mental illness possibly brought on by some personal trauma or have a drink/drug problem.
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It really is quiote simple...you THINK you have solved the case....I think thats a ridiculous claim and questions your credibility
Be nice Davel.
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Oh come off it G-Unit...announce to the world you mean the board here with about a dozen or so regular contributors and a hundred odd guests that Davel has written off as bots! I haven't seen any headlines in The Sun yet 'Former Bond Girl Solves The Maddie Mystery'!
Who said my efforts were so important and serious and secrecy absolutely paramount?
The world moves on. We're basically now all connected thanks to the internet and in this case with the release of the PJ files its pretty simply to work out what has happened imo.
The simplest of explanations are usually not far from the truth. I still stick with my view that the child simply walked out after hearing her father conversing with Jez Wilkins outside the apartment. What happened next is certainly up for debate.
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OG and anyone tasked with investigating on a professional basis will surely consider all info based on merit.
Take for example the case of Joanna Yeates in the early days investigators had Christopher Jefferies in sight and yet he was nothing other than a completely law abiding citizen who just happened to by JY's landlord and lived in close proximity to her.
What I see in a lot of these cases is prejudice where potential perps are discriminated against either negatively or positively. Professionals and lay people quickly form opinions about others and woe betide anyone who is slightly different. In the case of CJ he was perceived by many as an eccentric English teacher with a quirky dress sense, an unkempt hairstyle and grubby fingernails. Whereas the true perp was Vincent Tabak a highly qualified engineer with a clean cut look about him.
The reason Jefferies was considered a suspect is 1. Tabak tried to incriminate him. 2. He is a bit of an oddball.
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I don't believe my suspects have been considered by investigators as potential perps on the basis they put themselves forward as someone who could potentially assist.
Info provided by my suspects is contradictory and inconsistent. Coupled with the fact it doesn't match info found elsewhere in the public domain eg electoral roll.
On paper my suspects look unlikely child abductors regardless of motive which obviously I can't be sure. I think they've been allowed to slip under the radar.
Can I have a look at your theory Holly?
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(&^&
You keep it quiet Holly. And Anthro as well. Anyone else too.
There are children being abducted and I worry that I may have already said more than was wise. SY were definitely interested in my main theory about what happened afterwards
I hope that one of us is right.
it would be nice if it was me, but the important thing is not WHO solved it ... but that children are saved and no more taken
I wonder if the person you have identified is related somehow to my main suspect. If she is, there are a number of pointers connecting her to the case and, of course, to my suspect. But we shall never know unless SY charge someone, some people, cos I aint sharing..
Isn't it strange that no other children have allegedly been abducted in the area since Maddie disappeared? Do you not think that very relevant?
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Police tasked with investigating any child disappearance should look at every possibility regardless of how implausible it might be.
We know from the Met that officers were not given a free hand in this enquiry. Question is why???
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These are responses I got from findmadeleine which, presumably, is associated with Operation Grange?
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Oh come off it G-Unit...announce to the world you mean the board here with about a dozen or so regular contributors and a hundred odd guests that Davel has written off as bots! I haven't seen any headlines in The Sun yet 'Former Bond Girl Solves The Maddie Mystery'!
Who said my efforts were so important and serious and secrecy absolutely paramount?
The world moves on. We're basically now all connected thanks to the internet and in this case with the release of the PJ files its pretty simply to work out what has happened imo.
It was me not G-Unit that wrote the post. When you post on a public forum you do in effect tell thr whole world. Whether or not the whole world is listening or cares is brside the point. You have claimed that your theory is so important that it cannot be shared, certinly not it would seem with mere plebs such as ourselves, not even on the private part of the forum. Why not?
All this is not important now anyway, as today I received some mind blowing information about the case, which certainly puts the kybosh on your theory.
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Police tasked with investigating any child disappearance should look at every possibility regardless of how implausible it might be.
So you think the police should be giving Holly’s theory the time of day and should be putting resources into investigating her suspects do you?
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It was me not G-Unit that wrote the post. When you post on a public forum you do in effect tell thr whole world. Whether or not the whole world is listening or cares is brside the point. You have claimed that your theory is so important that it cannot be shared, certinly not it would seem with mere plebs such as ourselves, not even on the private part of the forum. Why not?
All this is not important now anyway, as today I received some mind blowing information about the case, which certainly puts the kybosh on your theory.
They found another bag of washing at the airport?
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They found another bag of washing at the airport?
I couldn’t possibly say. The Met have been informed though, and they were most appreciative.
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Isn't it strange that no other children have allegedly been abducted in the area since Maddie disappeared? Do you not think that very relevant?
Yep, I most certainly do.
Someone is laying low, or has moved his evil attentions elsewhere, it seems.
Around PdL, 3 girls vanished between 2004 and 2007 ... but none since
[Joana Cipriano, Carolina Santos (rescued when being walked off) and Madeleine Mccann.]
All fair haired and pretty.
I find that a very big co-incidence
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So you think the police should be giving Holly’s theory the time of day and should be putting resources into investigating her suspects do you?
If it is what I think it is, then I would have thought that it was one of the first investigations they did, way back in 2013.
I think it will have been already done VS
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I think Anthro has nailed him... or at least nailed spotty man.
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Hi Myster, I apologise for asking: are you sincere in saying this?
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The simplest of explanations are usually not far from the truth. I still stick with my view that the child simply walked out after hearing her father conversing with Jez Wilkins outside the apartment. What happened next is certainly up for debate.
The simplest explanation is correct. Smithman was seen carrying Madeleine IMO and he removed her from apartment 5A.
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Hi Myster, I apologise for asking: are you sincere in saying this?
Hi Anthro, no need to apologise. Of course I am... absolutely!
Are you not confident in your own judgement?
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Thank you, Myster. I am not British, thus I am not always sure how to interpret comments. And, yes I am confident the person who might have been involved in removing Madeleine, in whichever way, has been overlooked due to his predatory profile. Criminal activity is diverse.
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Thank you, Myster. I am not British, thus I am not always sure how to interpret comments. And, yes I am confident the person who might have been involved in removing Madeleine, in whichever way, has been overlooked due to his predatory profile. Criminal activity is diverse.
I'm mostly serious, but sometimes like to joke. I've known Holly for years here, but she takes my occasional ribbing in good heart... I think!
As I understand it, your suspect was arrested last year in Spain and is currently on trial for a 1998 child murder in Netherlands.
(https://i.imgur.com/F3RvD1s.jpg)
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I don’t have a theory, merely a line of thinking and a tentative hypothesis. I will happily share it with you, but not in the way you commented on Holly’s theory on this forum. She has entrusted you and your initial response was, in my view, harsh and judgmental.
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I don’t have a theory, merely a line of thinking and a tentative hypothesis. I will happily share it with you, but not in the way you commented on Holly’s theory on this forum. She has entrusted you and your initial response was, in my view, harsh and judgmental.
Sorry if you feel that way, but I don't believe Holly's theory stands up at all. I also feel she should have restrained herself from boasting that she had cracked the case and from contacting OG without anyone here having a clue who she suspected, which left them guessing and resulted in inevitable insults.
Share your thoughts by all means if you wish and I'll try hard to contain myself!
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So you think the police should be giving Holly’s theory the time of day and should be putting resources into investigating her suspects do you?
I would have hoped that the individuals concerned had been scrutinised already.
Holly's theory is certainly plausible and as I haven't seen it suggested here previously, full marks for thinking outside the box.
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I would have hoped that the individuals concerned had been scrutinised already.
Holly's theory is certainly plausible and as I haven't seen it suggested here previously, full marks for thinking outside the box.
What motive was given?
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I would have hoped that the individuals concerned had been scrutinised already.
Holly's theory is certainly plausible and as I haven't seen it suggested here previously, full marks for thinking outside the box.
Thanks John.
I agree in an ideal world investigating authorities would have scrutinised and either eliminated or pursued further.
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What motive was given?
I made it clear to John (and Myster) that if my theory/suspects are correct I cannot be sure of the motive and put forward different scenarios in this regard. I'm inclined towards thinking to raise as own and yes I have thought through all the obstacles as to how an abducted child could be incorporated into the lives of seemingly 'normal' people all of which I put to Myster and John.
My suspects are seemingly wealthy with business connections in Europe which would allow them to roam the Schengen Area unfettered. I do not believe they have any close immediate family although do have extended family but how close I have no idea.
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I don’t have a theory, merely a line of thinking and a tentative hypothesis. I will happily share it with you, but not in the way you commented on Holly’s theory on this forum. She has entrusted you and your initial response was, in my view, harsh and judgmental.
Myster and I go back a long way on the Bamber board and I'm use to his idiosyncrasies. He wasn't as harsh and judgmental in his personal feedback.
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I made it clear to John (and Myster) that if my theory/suspects are correct I cannot be sure of the motive and put forward different scenarios in this regard. I'm inclined towards thinking to raise as own and yes I have thought through all the obstacles as to how an abducted child could be incorporated into the lives of seemingly 'normal' people all of which I put to Myster and John.
My suspects are seemingly wealthy with business connections in Europe which would allow them to roam the Schengen Area unfettered. I do not believe they have any close immediate family although do have extended family but how close I have no idea.
Jihn said your theory is plausible.... As are many. As I have already said you have a possible solution but your claim to have solved the case is not supported by John... And Myster is quite scathing pointing out that your theory doesn't stand up... Both the posts by John and Myster support what I have said about your theory
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I made it clear to John (and Myster) that if my theory/suspects are correct I cannot be sure of the motive and put forward different scenarios in this regard. I'm inclined towards thinking to raise as own and yes I have thought through all the obstacles as to how an abducted child could be incorporated into the lives of seemingly 'normal' people all of which I put to Myster and John.
My suspects are seemingly wealthy with business connections in Europe which would allow them to roam the Schengen Area unfettered. I do not believe they have any close immediate family although do have extended family but how close I have no idea.
Where are these suspects living now?
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Myster and I go back a long way on the Bamber board and I'm use to his idiosyncrasies. He wasn't as harsh and judgmental in his personal feedback.
It's, what he posts in public that counts and his post is scathing about your theory and claims
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Where are these suspects living now?
Wealthy and free to roam the Schengen area. Surely that covers it.
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It's, what he posts in public that counts and his post is scathing about your theory and claims
I'm not getting dragged into all of this Davel. I've shared my suspects/theory with John and Myster and each has given his opinion. Nuff said.
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I'm not getting dragged into all of this Davel. I've shared my suspects/theory with John and Myster and each has given his opinion. Nuff said.
Absolutely... Each has given his opinion and we can all read them
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I made it clear to John (and Myster) that if my theory/suspects are correct I cannot be sure of the motive and put forward different scenarios in this regard. I'm inclined towards thinking to raise as own and yes I have thought through all the obstacles as to how an abducted child could be incorporated into the lives of seemingly 'normal' people all of which I put to Myster and John.
My suspects are seemingly wealthy with business connections in Europe which would allow them to roam the Schengen Area unfettered. I do not believe they have any close immediate family although do have extended family but how close I have no idea.
The only way anyone could rear an abducted Maddie as their own would be to disappear from society. Have these suspects disappeared Holly?
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The only way anyone could rear an abducted Maddie as their own would be to disappear from society. Have these suspects disappeared Holly?
It's an interesting thought.
I reckon I could weave a plausible tale for a 4 year old girl appearing. Or disappearing, for that matter.
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If still alive, as a sixteen-year-old experimenting with eye shadow and mascara, then closely examining her coloboma, she might be wondering - "Am I really with my true parents?".
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Goateeless with a few spots...
(https://i.imgur.com/nZi9BbL.jpg)
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And here, Myster.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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And here, Myster.
And here, Anthro...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuFY6hixPI0&feature=youtu.be&t=314 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuFY6hixPI0&feature=youtu.be&t=314)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flYu6Kn4Z-8&feature=youtu.be&t=26 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flYu6Kn4Z-8&feature=youtu.be&t=26)
Off for some lunch.
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If still alive, as a sixteen-year-old experimenting with eye shadow and mascara, then closely examining her coloboma, she might be wondering - "Am I really with my true parents?".
In my experience a 4 yr old would remember
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In my experience a 4 yr old would remember
OK, what is your experience?
What did the child remember?
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OK, what is your experience?
What did the child remember?
Read the post again... I said "a" child... And in " my" experience... I have distinct memories starting from 2 1/2 years old
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Is it realistic that Maddie would not remember such a traumatic event as being removed from her family
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Read the post again... I said "a" child... And in " my" experience... I have distinct memories starting from 2 1/2 years old
Were you removed from your family, at age four?
I believe G-Unit has said she was adopted at an early age, so perhaps her memories and experiences are more relevant?
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How can one be sure that early memories are real and not implanted ?
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And here, Anthro...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuFY6hixPI0&feature=youtu.be&t=314 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuFY6hixPI0&feature=youtu.be&t=314)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flYu6Kn4Z-8&feature=youtu.be&t=26 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flYu6Kn4Z-8&feature=youtu.be&t=26)
Is it being said this guy is some sort of suspect,who is he?
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Wealthy and free to roam the Schengen area. Surely that covers it.
No, I wasn't asking you, kindly don't jump in when you don't know the answer and the question was not addressed to you.
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No, I wasn't asking you, kindly don't jump in when you don't know the answer and the question was not addressed to you.
Kindly cease and desist with the browbeating. It don't impress me much.
You asked a question that had already been answered.
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How can one be sure that early memories are real and not implanted ?
According to the internet, they can be brain washed away and false memories implanted.
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Were you removed from your family, at age four?
I believe G-Unit has said she was adopted at an early age, so perhaps her memories and experiences are more relevant?
Afaiac your opinion is irrelevant
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Afaiac your opinion is irrelevant
Then that would make two of us. Welcome to the club!
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Is it being said this guy is some sort of suspect,who is he?
A Dutch survival expert once thought by the MET to be linked to this case, but dismissed on the grounds that he was only interested in boys, although he has been known to work in a kindergarten, possibly mixed?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/27/joss-brech-arrested-spain-1988-murder-nicky-verstappen-20-year/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/27/joss-brech-arrested-spain-1988-murder-nicky-verstappen-20-year/)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nicky-verstappen-jos-brech-arrested-dna-testing-catalonia-spain-netherlands-a8509686.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nicky-verstappen-jos-brech-arrested-dna-testing-catalonia-spain-netherlands-a8509686.html)
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Then that would make two of us. Welcome to the club!
Whatever we think we enjoy the luxury on this forum of being free to express opinions, have them discussed, challenged and make a case for them. We can also challenge other opinions and say why we disagree.
Don't knock it.
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I was removed from my family aged 4. Of course I remember - every detail.
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Kindly cease and desist with the browbeating. It don't impress me much.
You asked a question that had already been answered.
IMO browbeating is your speciality. I asked Holly a question, you interjected in an attempt to put me in my place. Kindly refrain from such behaviour, it doesn't impress anyone. The question has not been answered to my satisfaction. I await Holly's reply, anything else you have to say on the matter is totally irrelevant. Goodbye.
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IMO browbeating is your speciality. I asked Holly a question, you interjected in an attempt to put me in my place. Kindly refrain from such behaviour, it doesn't impress anyone. The question has not been answered to my satisfaction. I await Holly's reply, anything else you have to say on the matter is totally irrelevant. Goodbye.
There you go again.
Attempting to command me as to when I may speak and when I may not, and on which topics I may speak and on which I may not.
If you wish a private conversation with Holly, I recommend the PM facility. Because this is an open forum, not under the directorship of one VS.
Simples. *&(+(+
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There you go again.
Attempting to command me as to when I may speak and when I may not, and on which topics I may speak and on which I may not.
If you wish a private conversation with Holly, I recommend the PM facility. Because this is an open forum, not under the directorship of one VS.
Simples. *&(+(+
So when you command me to cease and desist, that’s ok is it? Hypocrite!
@Holly, before we were so rudely interrupted, where are your suspects currently residing?
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So when you command me to cease and desist, that’s ok is it? Hypocrite!
@Holly, before we were so rudely interrupted, where are your suspects currently residing?
When I ask you to stop telling me when I can comment and what you permit me to comment on, it is called freedom of speech. You would do well to remember that you are not in a position to stifle that.
For the record, you were not rudely interrupted. I made a perfectly polite observation that Holly appeared to have supplied such information beforehand.
&^^&*
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I was removed from my family aged 4. Of course I remember - every detail.
I have a vague recollection that you have said this in the past, but to be honest it had not sunk in.
If you feel you are in a position to elaborate further on this, please do. It would certainly be much more pertinent to the debate than other recent offerings.
*&(+(+
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When I ask you to stop telling me when I can comment and what you permit me to comment on, it is called freedom of speech. You would do well to remember that you are not in a position to stifle that.
For the record, you were not rudely interrupted. I made a perfectly polite observation that Holly appeared to have supplied such information beforehand.
&^^&*
Holly observed that her suspects are "wealthy and free to roam the Schengen area". That does NOT answer my question about where they are residing now. This is not an opinion, it is a fact, unless you can provide a cite to Holly claiming that these suspects lead a nomadic lifestyle? After all, I am wealthy and free to roam the Schengen area but that does not mean I don't live somewhere. Or perhaps you could just wait for Holly's answer, tantalising though I know it is for you to engage me in further (non) discussion.
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Holly observed that her suspects are "wealthy and free to roam the Schengen area". That does NOT answer my question about where they are residing now. This is not an opinion, it is a fact, unless you can provide a cite to Holly claiming that these suspects lead a nomadic lifestyle? After all, I am wealthy and free to roam the Schengen area but that does not mean I don't live somewhere. Or perhaps you could just wait for Holly's answer, tantalising though I know it is for you to engage me in further (non) discussion.
If I was wealthy I would own several properties within the Schengen zone and move from property to property as and when I chose.
As it so happens, we are currently trying to relocate within the Schengen zone, being the undoubted nomads that we are.
As we are not flying under the radar, readers will be able to find out about our travails on my blog.
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A Dutch survival expert once thought by the MET to be linked to this case, but dismissed on the grounds that he was only interested in boys, although he has been known to work in a kindergarten, possibly mixed?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/27/joss-brech-arrested-spain-1988-murder-nicky-verstappen-20-year/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/27/joss-brech-arrested-spain-1988-murder-nicky-verstappen-20-year/)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nicky-verstappen-jos-brech-arrested-dna-testing-catalonia-spain-netherlands-a8509686.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nicky-verstappen-jos-brech-arrested-dna-testing-catalonia-spain-netherlands-a8509686.html)
Did the MET say that or did the papers say the MET said that,world of difference.
Rowley: There are odd headlines and odd stories in newspapers on a regular basis and most of those are
nonsense.
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Hi Barrier, this person was only indirectly linked to Madeleine’s case because Martin Ney was first suspected in the Verstappen case until DNA results ruled him out and this man 100% in. Ney also came up in Madeleine’s case.
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I have a vague recollection that you have said this in the past, but to be honest it had not sunk in.
If you feel you are in a position to elaborate further on this, please do. It would certainly be much more pertinent to the debate than other recent offerings.
*&(+(+
Well the events that led up to it are very vague, to the point where I don't really remember what happened. But the actual act of being taken and re-homed is indelibly etched - down to conversations. So obviously the 'trauma' of the event created stronger neural pathways for me. I assume it's the same for others.
Incidentally, I turned out to be a well-adjusted, upstanding member of society and had no discernible detrimental effect to my development.......honest.
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If I was wealthy I would own several properties within the Schengen zone and move from property to property as and when I chose.
As it so happens, we are currently trying to relocate within the Schengen zone, being the undoubted nomads that we are.
As we are not flying under the radar, readers will be able to find out about our travails on my blog.
If someone asked me where you resided currently I would say Portugal and I would be right. That is why my question to Holly was perfectly valid, and your answer to it not helpful in the least. At least we have cleared that one up. Now, over to Holly.
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Hi Barrier, this person was only indirectly linked to Madeleine’s case because Martin Ney was first suspected in the Verstappen case until DNA results ruled him out and this man 100% in. Ney also came up in Madeleine’s case.
The tractor driver Monteiro came up also or so the story goes,but DNA ruled him out,just supposing there is unidentified DNA then this would likely rule these other two out,non starter imo.
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Well the events that led up to it are very vague, to the point where I don't really remember what happened. But the actual act of being taken and re-homed is indelibly etched - down to conversations. So obviously the 'trauma' of the event created stronger neural pathways for me. I assume it's the same for others.
Incidentally, I turned out to be a well-adjusted, upstanding member of society and had no discernible detrimental effect to my development.......honest.
precisely el capitan......If Maddie was suddenly without her family that would be an extremely traumatic event over weeks and months and would be indelibly etched as you rightly say..
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Well the events that led up to it are very vague, to the point where I don't really remember what happened. But the actual act of being taken and re-homed is indelibly etched - down to conversations. So obviously the 'trauma' of the event created stronger neural pathways for me. I assume it's the same for others.
Incidentally, I turned out to be a well-adjusted, upstanding member of society and had no discernible detrimental effect to my development.......honest.
Thank you.
If you are willing to share, may I ask you which general type of environment you moved to?
I would think a relocation within the family would be less stressful than to one with caring foster parents, which in turn would be less stressful than institutionalisation.
If I am prying too much, just let me know. I am grateful for the information you have already provided. &^^&*
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Thank you.
If you are willing to share, may I ask you which general type of environment you moved to?
I would think a relocation within the family would be less stressful than to one with caring foster parents, which in turn would be less stressful than institutionalisation.
If I am prying too much, just let me know. I am grateful for the information you have already provided. &^^&*
I dont think that is in the slightest relevant...from the information already given its been shown that in this case a traumatic event is etched in memory of a four year old. ....as previously suggested.....Maddies relocation would have been even more traumatic
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Thank you.
If you are willing to share, may I ask you which general type of environment you moved to?
I would think a relocation within the family would be less stressful than to one with caring foster parents, which in turn would be less stressful than institutionalisation.
If I am prying too much, just let me know. I am grateful for the information you have already provided. &^^&*
My brother and I were moved to family members - he was 6 I was 4. As Davros rightly alludes to, it took months to re-settle me in particular. My brother adjusted quicker as he was older, obviously.
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Did the MET say that or did the papers say the MET said that,world of difference.
Rowley: There are odd headlines and odd stories in newspapers on a regular basis and most of those are
nonsense.
Mea culpa, Anthro is correct to say that only Ney was tentatively linked to the MM case, but not pursued. Both OG and PJ are keeping schtum about their latest suspect (May 2019). I wonder if the woman who described spotty man in 2007 has kept up with events online and recognised Brech to be one and the same, or has even been interviewed again?
https://www.cqnews.com.au/news/cops-probing-new-maddie-mccann-suspect-after-scotl/3718369/ (https://www.cqnews.com.au/news/cops-probing-new-maddie-mccann-suspect-after-scotl/3718369/)
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Were you removed from your family, at age four?
I believe G-Unit has said she was adopted at an early age, so perhaps her memories and experiences are more relevant?
I remember arriving in a taxi at my adoptive parent's home at the age of two. Strangely I remember nothing of where I was immediately before the journey.
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I think this makes hollys theory a total non starter as Msddie would remember being taken from her family
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I remember arriving in a taxi at my adoptive parent's home at the age of two. Strangely I remember nothing of where I was immediately before the journey.
Many thanks for the refresh - I don't track members' detailed histories, only the gist.
It would appear we now have two active members ideally placed to evaluate this part of Holly's theory from personal experience, as opposed to those speculating from the outside.
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Hi Davel, I agree but it is possible that if Madeleine is currently in that situation, that she has been told her parents could no longer care for her and gave her away. I also have memories as a 4-year old but think that at that age you will believe anything an adult tells you, especially if you cannot find any trace of your parents and siblings.
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Many thanks for the refresh - I don't track members' detailed histories, only the gist.
It would appear we now have two active members ideally placed to evaluate this part of Holly's theory from personal experience, as opposed to those speculating from the outside.
you may have missed the point that It was myself that raised the point which basically invalidates hollys theory.....i wonder if she considered this point in her 5 A4 page missive
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Hi Davel, I agree but it is possible that if Madeleine is currently in that situation, that she has been told her parents could no longer care for her and gave her away. I also have memories as a 4-year old but think that at that age you will believe anything an adult tells you, especially if you cannot find any trace of your parents and siblings.
we are talking about memories based on traumatic circumstances.....at 4 maddie would still have memories of her parents and siblings....I think this blows a massive hole in hollys theory and again i wonder if she has covered the point already.
At 4 I was taken from my parents and admitted to hospital....I have a memory of a long sloping corridor and being wheeled screaming in a wicker basket on wheels. Years later i was at the hospital and there was the long sloping corridor...from A and E to the wards just as I remembered it
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you may have missed the point that It was myself that raised the point which basically invalidates hollys theory.....i wonder if she considered this point in her 5 A4 page missive
I haven't missed the point that you claim to know better and have won the 'rightness' battle again.
I just don't consider these add anything to our understanding.
*%^^&
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I haven't missed the point that you claim to know better and have won the 'rightness' battle again.
I just don't consider these add anything to our understanding.
*%^^&
perhaps you could point out where I claim to know better....
perhaps you could stop pointless attempts to score points
perhaps you could instead try and contribute to the discussion...hollys theory has a massive hole....I wonder if she thought of this point
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I totally agree with you that a traumatic experience will stay with you and even escalate due to its intensity, irrespective any other input. I am sorry for yours, Davel. My 14-year old son who had a gun at his temple when he was 4 years old, vividly remembers the whole ordeal.
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I totally agree with you that a traumatic experience will stay with you and even escalate due to its intensity, irrespective any other input. I am sorry for yours, Davel. My 14-year old son who had a gun at his temple when he was 4 years old, vividly remembers the whole ordeal.
mine was nothing really ....terrifying at the time...your sons ordeal is just awful....ive said before,...it saddens me how evil some people feel they have the right to be
I have a friend...a bit of a tough nut...who used to live in SA...he invited me out there. When i questioned safety he said...whats the problem...you can shoot cant you...he was obviously serious
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perhaps you could point out where I claim to know better....
perhaps you could stop pointless attempts to score points
perhaps you could instead try and contribute to the discussion...hollys theory has a massive hole....I wonder if she thought of this point
OK.
Since you have a standard stance on who knows better, and in your opinion that is Davel, perhaps you could re-read your latest post.
"hollys theory has a massive hole"
Obviously IYO.
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OK.
Since you have a standard stance on who knows better, and in your opinion that is Davel, perhaps you could re-read your latest post.
"hollys theory has a massive hole"
Obviously IYO.
no.......I see it as fact....do you dispute that maddie would have memory of being taken from her family to start a completely new life with strangers...that blows a massive hole in hollys theory...for the third time...i wonder if holly has considered that...I think we need to hear hollys answer
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I think this makes hollys theory a total non starter as Msddie would remember being taken from her family
That is what I'm hoping for. I hope Madeleine has some desire to discover who she really is.
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Then we have all maddies school friends remrking on her "funny " eye....wouldnt this also raise questions
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Then we have all maddies school friends remrking on her "funny " eye....wouldnt this also raise questions
Coloboma is not that rare is it?
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That is what I'm hoping for. I hope Madeleine has some desire to discover who she really is.
agreed....i would be absolutely delighted if holly had solved the case....as she claims.... I just dont see it as being true
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Coloboma is not that rare is it?
first im not sure if she has an actual coloboma...but second....how common in a blonde 16 yr old girl with memories of being abducted
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agreed....i would be absolutely delighted if holly had solved the case....as she claims.... I just dont see it as being true
I'd prefer it if my theory solved the case, but my theory only goes to a certain point that day. 12 years have passed now, and no theory can really account for what has happened in the intervening years.
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first im not sure if she has an actual coloboma...but second....how common in a blonde 16 yr old girl with memories of being abducted
She could be wondering what is memory and what is fantasy.
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She could be wondering what is memory and what is fantasy.
I think its been established that memory would be quite strong....
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Coloured contact lenses should eliminate a coloboma. I am not sure, but don’t people having a coloboma also have poor eyesight as they grow older?
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Coloured contact lenses should eliminate a coloboma. I am not sure, but don’t people having a coloboma also have poor eyesight as they grow older?
have you ever worn contact lenses....I doubt anyone would wear them simply to cover a coloboma...contacts are a pain in the neck
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have you ever worn contact lenses....I doubt anyone would wear them simply to cover a coloboma...contacts are a pain in the neck
So true, very itchy and irritating. I wore hard lenses in my youth when they were first introduced, and as soon as the lubricating lotion had dried up they would pop out if you blinked. I remember one of them flirting out in a crowded Saturday fruit market and me circling around staring at the floor for minutes, too embarrassed to tell onlookers what I'd lost. It wasn't the done thing for men to wear them in those days.
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I have been wearing contact lenses for the past 25 years. I remember the coloured ones would cover any blemishes. See the two pictures. I certainly think those lenses can be used to change the appearance of an iris.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I have been wearing contact lenses for the past 25 years. I remember the coloured ones would cover any blemishes. See the two pictures. I certainly think those lenses can be used to change the appearance of an iris.
why would maddie feel the need to hide her eye mark
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She might have been conditioned from a young age? And perhaps she needs the benefit because of light sensitivity which to me, is far worse than wearing soft lenses.
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She might have been conditioned from a young age? And perhaps she needs the benefit because of light sensitivity which to me, is far worse than wearing soft lenses.
What's far more significant is that if Maddie is still alive she would know about her previous family.... I think that throws a large spanner in hollys theory. My point is Holly has claimed to have a theory that answers all points... Does it answer this one
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What's far more significant is that if Maddie is still alive she would know about her previous family.... I think that throws a large spanner in hollys theory. My point is Holly has claimed to have a theory that answers all points... Does it answer this one
Whilst I have memories dating back to before I reached 4, none of those would lead me to the conclusion that I had 'different' adults in my life or that I have siblings.
There would be no spanner in the works in my own instance.
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Whilst I have memories dating back to before I reached 4, none of those would lead me to the conclusion that I had 'different' adults in my life or that I have siblings.
There would be no spanner in the works in my own instance.
I have strong memories of my younger sibling and of interactions which occurred between us before I was four, even the name of her favourite doll when she was two. I would have been four.
There is absolutely no way those memories would be erased if she had gone from my life when I was four!
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I have strong memories of my younger sibling and of interactions which occurred between us before I was four, even the name of her favourite doll when she was two. I would have been four.
There is absolutely no way those memories would be erased if she had gone from my life when I was four!
I think that's a good point. She would remember being one of three.
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Whilst I have memories dating back to before I reached 4, none of those would lead me to the conclusion that I had 'different' adults in my life or that I have siblings.
There would be no spanner in the works in my own instance.
We aren't talking about you
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I think that's a good point. She would remember being one of three.
I think the point I have raised is a very good point.... Although at least one poster doesn't want to accept it
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Although I'm confident about my theory/suspects I've already said in posts I can't be sure of the motive. It could range from altruistic, raise as own, to sinister, Brady/Hindley.
If raise as own we've already covered that there's no evidence the blemish/mark in MM's eye was an actual Colombo as per her passport etc. When PJ asked the McCanns about identifying features they refer to a blemish/mark in her eye and some sort of birthmark on a leg. From memory I don't believe KM's book refers to a Colombo.
Re childhood memories all the research shows
Most people have no memory prior to three years of age, and few memories between three and six years of age, as verified by analysis of the forgetting curve in adults recalling childhood memories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_memory
If MM was abducted to raise as own and her abductors a) stuck to a story early on 'why her parents parted with her' or how she was 'found' and b) thereafter provided a good home her loyalties will switch to her abductors which she might well have been with for 75% of her life now.
An anology might be religion whereby a child brought up in a home where religion plays a significant part of daily life will in all probability follow suit. Conversely a child brought up in a secular home will in all probability follow suit. The same can often be said for political allegiances too and even football teams! Beliefs are formed at a young age and shaped by what goes on in the child's environment. Of course once the child reaches adolescence/adulthood then he/she might challenge their own beliefs but imo this is not the norm.
You can see with KM she has herself down as a Catholic and Everton supporter as this was how she was raised. In her book she says she did not at any time question her Catholic faith as this was simply how she was raised.
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I am sure this has been discussed, but wouldn’t hypnotherapy be useful since Madeleine said that she and Sean were crying? Does anyone here know if the twins were subjected to something like this to extract potential important information?
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We aren't talking about you
With this post you obviously are.
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Although I'm confident about my theory/suspects I've already said in posts I can't be sure of the motive. It could range from altruistic, raise as own, to sinister, Brady/Hindley.
If raise as own we've already covered that there's no evidence the blemish/mark in MM's eye was an actual Colombo as per her passport etc. When PJ asked the McCanns about identifying features they refer to a blemish/mark in her eye and some sort of birthmark on a leg. From memory I don't believe KM's book refers to a Colombo.
Re childhood memories all the research shows
Most people have no memory prior to three years of age, and few memories between three and six years of age, as verified by analysis of the forgetting curve in adults recalling childhood memories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_memory
If MM was abducted to raise as own and her abductors a) stuck to a story early on 'why her parents parted with her' or how she was 'found' and b) thereafter provided a good home her loyalties will switch to her abductors which she might well have been with for 75% of her life now.
An anology might be religion whereby a child brought up in a home where religion plays a significant part of daily life will in all probability follow suit. Conversely a child brought up in a secular home will in all probability follow suit. The same can often be said for political allegiances too and even football teams! Beliefs are formed at a young age and shaped by what goes on in the child's environment. Of course once the child reaches adolescence/adulthood then he/she might challenge their own beliefs but imo this is not the norm.
You can see with KM she has herself down as a Catholic and Everton supporter as this was how she was raised. In her book she says she did not at any time question her Catholic faith as this was simply how she was raised.
You need to do better than quote Wikipedia... It's results don't tally with experiences here. Neither does it refer to extremely traumatic events... Your theory may have many more holes but this is certainly one
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With this post you obviously are.
No you are...give it a rest
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Hi Holly, aren’t ‘mark’ and ‘blemish’ just layman’s terms for ‘coloboma’?
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You need to do better than quote Wikipedia... It's results don't tally with experiences here. Neither does it refer to extremely traumatic events... Your theory may have many more holes but this is certainly one
The Wiki link is certainly more reliable than the anecdotal 'evidence' bandied about here.
Which extremely traumatic event are you referring to? The one described by Mrs Fenn whereby she claims she heard MM crying and calling 'daddy, daddy' in what would have been an unfamiliar environment to MM, between 10.30 pm and 11.45 pm on 1st May which got louder and more expressive as time went on; or the possibility MM might have awoken in an unfamiliar environment with strangers who might well have been of a kindly disposition and responsive to her needs?
Why are you so keen for my theory/suspects to be wrong?
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Hi Holly, aren’t ‘mark’ and ‘blemish’ just layman’s terms for ‘coloboma’?
I have similar marks on my iris which are only really visible in certain lights. I can't see anything on formal docs re a coloboma.
Someone here suggested it was used as a marketing tool in the early days.
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Although I'm confident about my theory/suspects I've already said in posts I can't be sure of the motive. It could range from altruistic, raise as own, to sinister, Brady/Hindley.
If raise as own we've already covered that there's no evidence the blemish/mark in MM's eye was an actual Colombo as per her passport etc. When PJ asked the McCanns about identifying features they refer to a blemish/mark in her eye and some sort of birthmark on a leg. From memory I don't believe KM's book refers to a Colombo.
Re childhood memories all the research shows
Most people have no memory prior to three years of age, and few memories between three and six years of age, as verified by analysis of the forgetting curve in adults recalling childhood memories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_memory
If MM was abducted to raise as own and her abductors a) stuck to a story early on 'why her parents parted with her' or how she was 'found' and b) thereafter provided a good home her loyalties will switch to her abductors which she might well have been with for 75% of her life now.
An anology might be religion whereby a child brought up in a home where religion plays a significant part of daily life will in all probability follow suit. Conversely a child brought up in a secular home will in all probability follow suit. The same can often be said for political allegiances too and even football teams! Beliefs are formed at a young age and shaped by what goes on in the child's environment. Of course once the child reaches adolescence/adulthood then he/she might challenge their own beliefs but imo this is not the norm.
You can see with KM she has herself down as a Catholic and Everton supporter as this was how she was raised. In her book she says she did not at any time question her Catholic faith as this was simply how she was raised.
When I was growing up almost everyone belonged to a religion and attended church on Sundays, including me. By the time I was 20 years old few of my generation belonged to a religion or attended church regularly. I think that was one of the defining trends of the 1960's, and the rejection of organised religion has continued ever since.
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Yet, in these pictures the blemish seems clearly visible, so I don’t know about the marketing ploy claim.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Dr G. means this... https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/books/kate-mccann/madeleine/GOR003793521?keyword=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvcT-ubuR5QIVyrHtCh38EwBaEAQYAyABEgIVX_D_BwE (https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/books/kate-mccann/madeleine/GOR003793521?keyword=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvcT-ubuR5QIVyrHtCh38EwBaEAQYAyABEgIVX_D_BwE)
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The Wiki link is certainly more reliable than the anecdotal 'evidence' bandied about here.
Which extremely traumatic event are you referring to? The one described by Mrs Fenn whereby she claims she heard MM crying and calling 'daddy, daddy' in what would have been an unfamiliar environment to MM, between 10.30 pm and 11.45 pm on 1st May which got louder and more expressive as time went on; or the possibility MM might have awoken in an unfamiliar environment with strangers who might well have been of a kindly disposition and responsive to her needs?
Why are you so keen for my theory/suspects to be wrong?
Hi Holly,I'm not sure Mrs Fenn identified who was crying.
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The Wiki link is certainly more reliable than the anecdotal 'evidence' bandied about here.
Which extremely traumatic event are you referring to? The one described by Mrs Fenn whereby she claims she heard MM crying and calling 'daddy, daddy' in what would have been an unfamiliar environment to MM, between 10.30 pm and 11.45 pm on 1st May which got louder and more expressive as time went on; or the possibility MM might have awoken in an unfamiliar environment with strangers who might well have been of a kindly disposition and responsive to her needs?
Why are you so keen for my theory/suspects to be wrong?
The traumatic event is being seperated from her parents and siblings ....and being taken to live with strangers.
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Of course she may have lived such a traumatic life for the last decade and more that memory of her distant past is completely obliterated.
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Of course she may have lived such a traumatic life for the last decade and more that memory of her distant past is completely obliterated.
many things are possible but that would not fit hollys theory
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Hi Holly,I'm not sure Mrs Fenn identified who was crying.
At the time of MM's disappearance Mrs Fenn was mother to 3 adult children and also had several grandchildren. So I think it is safe to say she had considerable experience of managing small children unless she was some ultra remote figure.
Her wit stat:
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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At the time of MM's disappearance Mrs Fenn was mother to 3 adult children and also had several grandchildren. So I think it is safe to say she had considerable experience of managing small children unless she was some ultra remote figure.
Her wit stat:
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Is that a witness statement as we know it?
Mrs Fenn was English and she did not understand the spoken or written word in Portuguese.
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It says a police interpreter was present.
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It says a police interpreter was present.
We don't have a record of what Mrs Fenn said... Only a non verbatim account by a third party.... As Colin Sutton said... The room for error was enormous
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I'm almost convinced this is the same "very ugly" man seen loitering in the vicinity of 5A....
(https://i.imgur.com/Ovgo76e.jpg)
The female witness said he was about 5'10" tall, Dutch police said they were looking for someone 1.8m which is almost 5'11"
(https://i.imgur.com/1lsFO4V.png)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/very-ugly-man-is-new-madeleine-suspect-1680510.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/very-ugly-man-is-new-madeleine-suspect-1680510.html)
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Although I'm confident about my theory/suspects I've already said in posts I can't be sure of the motive. It could range from altruistic, raise as own, to sinister, Brady/Hindley.
If raise as own we've already covered that there's no evidence the blemish/mark in MM's eye was an actual Colombo as per her passport etc. When PJ asked the McCanns about identifying features they refer to a blemish/mark in her eye and some sort of birthmark on a leg. From memory I don't believe KM's book refers to a Colombo.
Re childhood memories all the research shows
Most people have no memory prior to three years of age, and few memories between three and six years of age, as verified by analysis of the forgetting curve in adults recalling childhood memories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_memory
If MM was abducted to raise as own and her abductors a) stuck to a story early on 'why her parents parted with her' or how she was 'found' and b) thereafter provided a good home her loyalties will switch to her abductors which she might well have been with for 75% of her life now.
An anology might be religion whereby a child brought up in a home where religion plays a significant part of daily life will in all probability follow suit. Conversely a child brought up in a secular home will in all probability follow suit. The same can often be said for political allegiances too and even football teams! Beliefs are formed at a young age and shaped by what goes on in the child's environment. Of course once the child reaches adolescence/adulthood then he/she might challenge their own beliefs but imo this is not the norm.
You can see with KM she has herself down as a Catholic and Everton supporter as this was how she was raised. In her book she says she did not at any time question her Catholic faith as this was simply how she was raised.
When you continue to refer to Kate’s “book” in otherwise serious posts, it’s actually hard to take anything you write seriously, IMO. Is there any need?
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When you continue to refer to Kate’s “book” in otherwise serious posts, it’s actually hard to take anything you write seriously, IMO. Is there any need?
I couldn't agree more. I find it not only defining but cringe making.
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I'm almost convinced this is the same "very ugly" man seen loitering in the vicinity of 5A....
(https://i.imgur.com/Ovgo76e.jpg)
The female witness said he was about 5'10" tall, Dutch police said they were looking for someone 1.8m which is almost 5'11"
(https://i.imgur.com/1lsFO4V.png)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/very-ugly-man-is-new-madeleine-suspect-1680510.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/very-ugly-man-is-new-madeleine-suspect-1680510.html)
I wonder why the unidentified British holidaymaker who saw him waited until 2009 before coming forward?
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I wonder why the unidentified British holidaymaker who saw him waited until 2009 before coming forward?
It doesn't say when she came forward. For all we know her testimony might have been submerged in the plethora of police files 2007 until they got round to examining it further two years later.
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It doesn't say when she came forward. For all we know her testimony might have been submerged in the plethora of police files 2007 until they got round to examining it further two years later.
Plus they were concentrating on people carrying sleeping kids around PdL at night.
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It doesn't say when she came forward. For all we know her testimony might have been submerged in the plethora of police files 2007 until they got round to examining it further two years later.
The sighting was first mentioned on the 2nd anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance. There is nothing about it in the PJ files afaik.
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The sighting was first mentioned on the 2nd anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance. There is nothing about it in the PJ files afaik.
Who said ALL the PJ files were put out in the public domain?
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I wonder why the unidentified British holidaymaker who saw him waited until 2009 before coming forward?
Afaik the witness who made this observation was a young mother with a small child who made the observation on two separate occasions. It formed part of a reconstruction vid and I think its also in KM's book.
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I'm almost convinced this is the same "very ugly" man seen loitering in the vicinity of 5A....
(https://i.imgur.com/Ovgo76e.jpg)
The female witness said he was about 5'10" tall, Dutch police said they were looking for someone 1.8m which is almost 5'11"
(https://i.imgur.com/1lsFO4V.png)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/very-ugly-man-is-new-madeleine-suspect-1680510.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/very-ugly-man-is-new-madeleine-suspect-1680510.html)
But the witness described the man as having pimples and this character appears to be devoid of pimples.
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Page 471 - KM's book:
On Sunday 29th April 2007, between 8 and 9 am, this witness noticed a man loitering on Rua do Ramelhete whose appearance unnerved her. Three days later, in mid-afternoon on Wednesday 2nd May, the witness saw the same man on Rua Dr Gentil Martins, on the opposite side of the road to apartment 5A, near the car park across from the entrance to the Ocean Club's pool and Tapas restaurant area. The witness said that the man was standing still and looking over in the direction of apartment 5A.
Description: Male of Portuguese appearance; approximately 5ft 10 ins (1.78m) tall; slim build; 'very ugly - pitted skin with a large nose'.
Clothing: Casual jeans.
Portrait: Sketch number 2 on the penultimate page of pictures.
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I wonder why he hasn't self-eliminated...
'Hi I think I might be the ugly guy with pimples and a large nose you're looking for. Yes I'm aesthetically challenged but my hearts in the right place'.
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But the witness described the man as having pimples and this character appears to be devoid of pimples.
He's internet savvy, his abandoned laptop was found in a backwoods cabin somewhere. If he'd seen that caricature on the net he probably thought to himself - "Christ!... that looks like me, better grow a beard quick to hide my pock-marked chin". Besides that sketch was made 10 years ago, so his acne might have cleared up by 2018 either with Clearasil or bathing his beautiful features in unpolluted spring water.
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Here's the reconstruction vid covering pimply/ugly man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY&t=846s
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Page 471 - KM's book:
On Sunday 29th April 2007, between 8 and 9 am, this witness noticed a man loitering on Rua do Ramelhete whose appearance unnerved her. Three days later, in mid-afternoon on Wednesday 2nd May, the witness saw the same man on Rua Dr Gentil Martins, on the opposite side of the road to apartment 5A, near the car park across from the entrance to the Ocean Club's pool and Tapas restaurant area. The witness said that the man was standing still and looking over in the direction of apartment 5A.
Description: Male of Portuguese appearance; approximately 5ft 10 ins (1.78m) tall; slim build; 'very ugly - pitted skin with a large nose'.
Clothing: Casual jeans.
Portrait: Sketch number 2 on the penultimate page of pictures.
Thank you! Portuguese?... well he lived in the open air so sunburn would give a fair-skinned Dutchman a swarthy Mediterranean complexion.
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Who said ALL the PJ files were put out in the public domain?
Why would that one be withheld? As far as I know it never reached Leicestershire Constabulary, let alone the PJ. For some reason an efit was created by the McCann's investigators and there was an attempt to suggest that the same man was seen by various witnesses. In actual fact others did see a man, but their efits have nothing in common with this one.
http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/madeleine-was-here-scarface-3-witnesses/
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Why would that one be withheld? As far as I know it never reached Leicestershire Constabulary, let alone the PJ. For some reason an efit was created by the McCann's investigators and there was an attempt to suggest that the same man was seen by various witnesses. In actual fact others did see a man, but their efits have nothing in common with this one.
http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/madeleine-was-here-scarface-3-witnesses/
Yes there was a bit of a frenzy! ' find madeliene' became a psudo national sport at one point. The same mentality as Princess Diana's death, this is what the McCanns wanted. Global mourning for a lost child... Every one and any one was a suspect- well apart from the parents tsk. heavens above ,as if...
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Yes there was a bit of a frenzy! ' find madeliene' became a psudo national sport at one point. The same mentality as Princess Diana's death, this is what the McCanns wanted. Global mourning for a lost child... Every one and any one was a suspect- well apart from the parents tsk. heavens above ,as if...
Pure unadulterated rubbish IMO.
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Pure unadulterated rubbish IMO.
theres absolutely tons of it on this thread...its the total claptrap thread
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Mummy, Mummy please help me my eyes are burning!!!
Oh well stop spraying pepper into them...
Some people are addicted to this site. they love to hate it. (&^&
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Mummy, Mummy please help me my eyes are burning!!!
Oh well stop spraying pepper into them...
Some people are addicted to this site. they love to hate it. (&^&
Indeed.
Must be why you need to visit sporidically here and leave a reply on various threads.
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Mummy, Mummy please help me my eyes are burning!!!
Oh well stop spraying pepper into them...
Some people are addicted to this site. they love to hate it. (&^&
More puerile claptrap, IMO.
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I'm almost convinced this is the same "very ugly" man seen loitering in the vicinity of 5A....
(https://i.imgur.com/Ovgo76e.jpg)
The female witness said he was about 5'10" tall, Dutch police said they were looking for someone 1.8m which is almost 5'11"
(https://i.imgur.com/1lsFO4V.png)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/very-ugly-man-is-new-madeleine-suspect-1680510.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/very-ugly-man-is-new-madeleine-suspect-1680510.html)
I somehow wonder if that sketch was actually done by Tasmin Silence.
It is from the hand of an experienced artist IMO. Just see the way that the neck fits inside the collar; most adults couldn't manage that.
See the rapid shading of the chest area. Once again the hand of a confident artist IMO
I wonder if they showed her a photo of some known paedos including Brech and she identified him from those. They then subtly drew that sketch with important details in, but minor differences. Minor differences intentionally so that they couldn't be accused of wrongful accusations ... and also rather rough to give the impression that Tasmin drew it
Who issued that drawing? .... cos it seems that the Police / PJ were already on the trail
It is an incredible likeness.
ETA:
I have always thought that this sketch was attributed to Tasmin Silence, but having read some of the posts above, I am wondering if it was done by the woman with child ?
Can someone please clear up that anomaly please?
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Mummy, Mummy please help me my eyes are burning!!!
Oh well stop spraying pepper into them... -SNIP-
What an unnecessary and cruel remark to make. Quite obviously putting the boot in again ... and lies.
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I somehow wonder if that sketch was actually done by Tasmin Silence.
It is from the hand of an experienced artist IMO. Just see the way that the neck fits inside the collar; most adults couldn't manage that.
See the rapid shading of the chest area. Once again the hand of a confident artist IMO
I wonder if they showed her a photo of some known paedos including Brech and she identified him from those. They then subtly drew that sketch with important details in, but minor differences. Minor differences intentionally so that they couldn't be accused of wrongful accusations ... and also rather rough to give the impression that Tasmin drew it
Who issued that drawing? .... cos it seems that the Police / PJ were already on the trail
It is an incredible likeness.
ETA:
I have always thought that this sketch was attributed to Tasmin Silence, but having read some of the posts above, I am wondering if it was done by the woman with child ?
Can someone please clear up that anomaly please?
That efit was produced by the woman with the child and Edgar and Cowley in 2009. She spoke to them, but there's no evidence she spoke to the police.
Tasmin Silence produced this efit with the PJ, it was identified as a man named Green, I believe.
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/tasminman.gif)
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It has been said that the ‘ugly man’ e-fit could not be found in the PJ files. It might have been contained in files that the McCann’s lawyers had access to and which is still under judicial secrecy. Or possibly from information from the public or Metodo 3. The mother is believed to be Jeni Weinberger (?)
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Hi Sadie, Brech’s DNA has not been captured on any database until August 2018 when he was captured in Spain, 50 km from Barcelona. All that is on record, as far as I can gather, is that he was relieved of his duties at a scouting camp in Poland in the 80’s because he molested some of the scout boys. I don’t know if this was ever captured on any database and that he has been listed as a pedophile as such. I don’t think so. My line of thinking centers around him as possibly being involved in Madeleine’s disappearance.
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It has been said that the ‘ugly man’ e-fit could not be found in the PJ files. It might have been contained in files that the McCann’s lawyers had access to and which is still under judicial secrecy. Or possibly from information from the public or Metodo 3. The mother is believed to be Jeni Weinberger (?)
That's not an e-fit, that's an e-fit up! That's the most accurate e-fit in the history of crime. I'm sorry, but it's too convenient.
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That efit was produced by the woman with the child and Edgar and Cowley in 2009. She spoke to them, but there's no evidence she spoke to the police.
Tasmin Silence produced this efit with the PJ, it was identified as a man named Green, I believe.
(https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/tasminman.gif)
It was reported that she first mentioned her sighting to her local police in Wiltshire in 2007, who then forwarded it to Leicestershire police dealing with the McCann case, but she heard nothing since.
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It has been said that the ‘ugly man’ e-fit could not be found in the PJ files. It might have been contained in files that the McCann’s lawyers had access to and which is still under judicial secrecy. Or possibly from information from the public or Metodo 3. The mother is believed to be Jeni Weinberger (?)
Jeni Weinberger owns or owned the "ART Salon" in Bath, so she would have had access to various talented artists who were capable of producing such a professional sketch, although a little caricaturish.
If she was a pro or talented amateur artist herself, it might have been her work.
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How interesting, thanks Myster.
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Hi Myster, presumably this is the person. Just to add: the Totmans and Weinbergers both stayed in block 4G.
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Hi Myster, presumably this is the person. Just to add: the Totmans and Weinbergers both stayed in block 4G.
I think so, with the same phone number here...
https://www.artsalon.co.uk/about-us/ (https://www.artsalon.co.uk/about-us/)
https://artefuse.com/2012/10/10/the-fall-2012-edition-of-affordable-art-fair/deukyun-hwang-aaf-fall-2012-pic-7/ (https://artefuse.com/2012/10/10/the-fall-2012-edition-of-affordable-art-fair/deukyun-hwang-aaf-fall-2012-pic-7/)
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I think so, with the same phone number here...
https://www.artsalon.co.uk/about-us/ (https://www.artsalon.co.uk/about-us/)
https://artefuse.com/2012/10/10/the-fall-2012-edition-of-affordable-art-fair/deukyun-hwang-aaf-fall-2012-pic-7/ (https://artefuse.com/2012/10/10/the-fall-2012-edition-of-affordable-art-fair/deukyun-hwang-aaf-fall-2012-pic-7/)
can i add no one should call her at all
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Jeni Weinberger owns or owned the "ART Salon" in Bath, so she would have had access to various talented artists who were capable of producing such a professional sketch, although a little caricaturish.
If she was a pro or talented amateur artist herself, it might have been her work.
I don't know what Mrs Weinberger was doing in 2007, but in 2010 she and her husband set up Diasolve Ltd, located in Porton Down in Wiltshire. That company was voluntarily liquidated in March 2019. The Art Salon was incorporated in 2015 with another woman, not with her husband. The Weinbergers appear to live in Marleborough, Wiltshire.
She saw a lot, Mrs Weinberger, but seemed to share her sightings with the McCann's investigators rather than the police. Here she is again;
Another witness, Jeni Weinberger, from Salisbury, Wiltshire, said she saw a woman resembling Mrs Albino outside the McCanns’ apartment in May 2007.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255297/Riddle-Madeleine-McCann-fat-gipsy-women.html
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I don't know what Mrs Weinberger was doing in 2007, but in 2010 she and her husband set up Diasolve Ltd, located in Porton Down in Wiltshire. That company was voluntarily liquidated in March 2019. The Art Salon was incorporated in 2015 with another woman, not with her husband. The Weinbergers appear to live in Marleborough, Wiltshire.
She saw a lot, Mrs Weinberger, but seemed to share her sightings with the McCann's investigators rather than the police. Here she is again;
Another witness, Jeni Weinberger, from Salisbury, Wiltshire, said she saw a woman resembling Mrs Albino outside the McCanns’ apartment in May 2007.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255297/Riddle-Madeleine-McCann-fat-gipsy-women.html
Porton Down you say? Any chance we can shoe-horn some more conspiracy into this?
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I don't know what Mrs Weinberger was doing in 2007, but in 2010 she and her husband set up Diasolve Ltd, located in Porton Down in Wiltshire. That company was voluntarily liquidated in March 2019. The Art Salon was incorporated in 2015 with another woman, not with her husband. The Weinbergers appear to live in Marleborough, Wiltshire.
She saw a lot, Mrs Weinberger, but seemed to share her sightings with the McCann's investigators rather than the police. Here she is again;
Another witness, Jeni Weinberger, from Salisbury, Wiltshire, said she saw a woman resembling Mrs Albino outside the McCanns’ apartment in May 2007.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255297/Riddle-Madeleine-McCann-fat-gipsy-women.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255297/Riddle-Madeleine-McCann-fat-gipsy-women.html)
Your link doesn't work.
Where did you get Porton Down from? Husband and wife had three offices successively for Diasolve Ltd (R & D in Biotechnology), the first in London the other two in Devizes, the last being at 7-7c Snuff Street here...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/7+Snuff+St,+Devizes/@51.3532704,-1.995934,19.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4871618b0ee3a5a1:0x6872e1320e3e78d6!8m2!3d51.3532546!4d-1.9958134 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/7+Snuff+St,+Devizes/@51.3532704,-1.995934,19.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4871618b0ee3a5a1:0x6872e1320e3e78d6!8m2!3d51.3532546!4d-1.9958134)
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This is her ART Salon...
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x48718113159938d5%3A0x4cf03d7100ad258d!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOjBYpbmCOgvfOtK9cIByCeyw7R6cWV_IN1x-Uk%3Dw213-h160-k-no!5sart%20salon%20bath%20-%20Google%20Search!15sCAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipOjBYpbmCOgvfOtK9cIByCeyw7R6cWV_IN1x-Uk&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiy8vCSiZTlAhU2REEAHXwgCvMQoiowDXoECAsQBg (https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x48718113159938d5%3A0x4cf03d7100ad258d!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOjBYpbmCOgvfOtK9cIByCeyw7R6cWV_IN1x-Uk%3Dw213-h160-k-no!5sart%20salon%20bath%20-%20Google%20Search!15sCAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipOjBYpbmCOgvfOtK9cIByCeyw7R6cWV_IN1x-Uk&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiy8vCSiZTlAhU2REEAHXwgCvMQoiowDXoECAsQBg)
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Your link doesn't work.
Where did you get Porton Down from? Husband and wife had three offices successively for Diasolve Ltd (R & D in Biotechnology), the first in London the other two in Devizes, the last being at 7-7c Snuff Street here...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/7+Snuff+St,+Devizes/@51.3532704,-1.995934,19.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4871618b0ee3a5a1:0x6872e1320e3e78d6!8m2!3d51.3532546!4d-1.9958134 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/7+Snuff+St,+Devizes/@51.3532704,-1.995934,19.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4871618b0ee3a5a1:0x6872e1320e3e78d6!8m2!3d51.3532546!4d-1.9958134)
The link worked for me.
I got Porton Down here, on the right hand side;
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1CAPKUQ_enGB867GB867&sxsrf=ACYBGNRKmuz7VDDhP_EvS36_Nxmm20pY9A%3A1570793816135&ei=WGmgXeTvB5G11fAPofKDqAY&q=diasolve+ltd&oq=diasolve+ltd&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39j0i13l3j0i13i30l2j0i8i13i30l4.37786.51778..52608...3.2..1.1920.9056.12j23j1j5-1j0j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....10..0i71j35i362i39j0i67j0i273j0i131j0j0i131i273j0i131i67j0i20i263j0i10j0i10i30j0i30.EYEqh2hYNeE&ved=0ahUKEwjk-7P7jpTlAhWRWhUIHSH5AGUQ4dUDCAs&uact=5
There's a difference between the registered office address of a company (Devizes) and the business address (Porton Down).
Many companies use their Accountants for their registered address, which is what I think Diasolve did;
Charlton Baker
Chartered Accountants
7 - 7c Snuff Street
Devizes
Wiltshire
SN10 1DU
https://www.charltonbaker.co.uk/contact
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The link worked for me.
I got Porton Down here, on the right hand side;
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1CAPKUQ_enGB867GB867&sxsrf=ACYBGNRKmuz7VDDhP_EvS36_Nxmm20pY9A%3A1570793816135&ei=WGmgXeTvB5G11fAPofKDqAY&q=diasolve+ltd&oq=diasolve+ltd&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39j0i13l3j0i13i30l2j0i8i13i30l4.37786.51778..52608...3.2..1.1920.9056.12j23j1j5-1j0j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....10..0i71j35i362i39j0i67j0i273j0i131j0j0i131i273j0i131i67j0i20i263j0i10j0i10i30j0i30.EYEqh2hYNeE&ved=0ahUKEwjk-7P7jpTlAhWRWhUIHSH5AGUQ4dUDCAs&uact=5 (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1CAPKUQ_enGB867GB867&sxsrf=ACYBGNRKmuz7VDDhP_EvS36_Nxmm20pY9A%3A1570793816135&ei=WGmgXeTvB5G11fAPofKDqAY&q=diasolve+ltd&oq=diasolve+ltd&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39j0i13l3j0i13i30l2j0i8i13i30l4.37786.51778..52608...3.2..1.1920.9056.12j23j1j5-1j0j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....10..0i71j35i362i39j0i67j0i273j0i131j0j0i131i273j0i131i67j0i20i263j0i10j0i10i30j0i30.EYEqh2hYNeE&ved=0ahUKEwjk-7P7jpTlAhWRWhUIHSH5AGUQ4dUDCAs&uact=5)
There's a difference between the registered office address of a company (Devizes) and the business address (Porton Down).
Many companies use their Accountants for their registered address, which is what I think Diasolve did;
Charlton Baker
Chartered Accountants
7 - 7c Snuff Street
Devizes
Wiltshire
SN10 1DU
https://www.charltonbaker.co.uk/contact (https://www.charltonbaker.co.uk/contact)
Still can't access, could be because I'm on a different browser.
Diasolve incorporated in 2010 and Diasolved (ho-ho) in 2019, but nothing to do with spotty man.
If Jeni Weinberger was a sole trader (of art) in 2007 then she wouldn't have needed to register with Companies House; she would merely have had to fill in her tax return form. However, by taking on her partner in 2015, who appears to concentrate on the accounts side, she would have been required to do so.
She might not even had a sales business in 2007, but held life drawing and painting classes, which she still does at ART Salon...
https://www.theartcourse.co.uk/adult (https://www.theartcourse.co.uk/adult)
Could also have trained in art, Dip A.D. or BA in Fine Art, and herself been responsible for the spotty man sketch.
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Still can't access, could be because I'm on a different browser.
Diasolve incorporated in 2010 and Diasolved (ho-ho) in 2019, but nothing to do with spotty man.
If Jeni Weinberger was a sole trader (of art) in 2007 then she wouldn't have needed to register with Companies House; she would merely have had to fill in her tax return form. However, by taking on her partner in 2015, who appears to concentrate on the accounts side, she would have been required to do so.
She might not even had a sales business in 2007, but held life drawing and painting classes, which she still does at ART Salon...
https://www.theartcourse.co.uk/adult (https://www.theartcourse.co.uk/adult)
Could also have trained in art, Dip A.D. or BA in Fine Art, and herself been responsible for the spotty man sketch.
She was probably busy bringing up her 3 year old daughter and 11 month old son. Whoever did the efit it wasn't the police, because no investigation was running at the time.
Try this link to her other alleged sighting;
The McCann’s investigators believe the red-haired woman was a cleaner from a town north of Portimao.
She was also identified by Jeni Weinberger, from Salisbury, who said she saw a woman of similar appearance outside the McCann’s apartment in May 2007.
The 38-year-old holiday-maker described the woman as “well built”, with “quite messy looking” hair and said she was seen with a man, sitting on a wall.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7364631/McCanns-detective-searching-for-girl-in-a-wig-seen-with-two-gipsies.html
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Porton Down you say? Any chance we can shoe-horn some more conspiracy into this?
Google what Diasolve did.
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Google what Diasolve did.
Rabbit hole. You go first, I'll watch your back. GO!
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Rabbit hole. You go first, I'll watch your back. GO!
You sound like one of the Jack Russells my husband used to own, or Alice in Wonderland.
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She was probably busy bringing up her 3 year old daughter and 11 month old son. Whoever did the efit it wasn't the police, because no investigation was running at the time.
Try this link to her other alleged sighting;
The McCann’s investigators believe the red-haired woman was a cleaner from a town north of Portimao.
She was also identified by Jeni Weinberger, from Salisbury, who said she saw a woman of similar appearance outside the McCann’s apartment in May 2007.
The 38-year-old holiday-maker described the woman as “well built”, with “quite messy looking” hair and said she was seen with a man, sitting on a wall.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7364631/McCanns-detective-searching-for-girl-in-a-wig-seen-with-two-gipsies.html (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7364631/McCanns-detective-searching-for-girl-in-a-wig-seen-with-two-gipsies.html)
It's definitely not an E-FIT, which as the name suggests is a likeness assembled from various facial features - hair, eyes, nose, mouth, etc. on a computer screen, although in its infancy was carried out with paper/cardboard cutouts, as I recall.
The pencil sketch was done by an experienced amateur artist, who I feel actually saw this mysterious person in reality, or by a professional guided by the input of Jeni Weinberger.
This OU video of an attempt at Judi Dench's face shows how poor E-FITs can be...
https://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=68096§ion=2.4 (https://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=68096§ion=2.4)
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Seeing as how y’all rather creepily know so much about this woman why don’t you go the whole hog and contact her directly to satisfy your curiosity? Invite her to the forum and we can all grill her. That would be entertaining.
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Seeing as how y’all rather creepily know so much about this woman why don’t you go the whole hog and contact her directly to satisfy your curiosity? Invite her to the forum and we can all grill her. That would be entertaining.
Nothing creepy about it... Butt Out!
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This is the artist who drew sketches of Tannerman and the guy with a zapata moustache and prominent teeth, although I don't think the one of spotty man...
(https://i.imgur.com/eB6OFAW.png)
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A reminder to everyone to stay within the thread topic.
Admin
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It's definitely not an E-FIT, which as the name suggests is a likeness assembled from various facial features - hair, eyes, nose, mouth, etc. on a computer screen, although in its infancy was carried out with paper/cardboard cutouts, as I recall.
The pencil sketch was done by an experienced amateur artist, who I feel actually saw this mysterious person in reality, or by a professional guided by the input of Jeni Weinberger.
This OU video of an attempt at Judi Dench's face shows how poor E-FITs can be...
https://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=68096§ion=2.4 (https://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=68096§ion=2.4)
I don't care who did the sketch or whatever you care to call it. What I do know is that she isn't mentioned anywhere until this efit is released to the press. Despite attempts by Dave Edgar to link her sighting and the efit with the sightings by Tasmin Silence and Derek Flack, they produced different efits from her and from each other.
Scarface witness: Police ignored me The Sun
By ANTONELLA LAZZERI
Published: Today (11 May 2009)
A WITNESS who sparked the hunt for a scarfaced suspect in the Madeleine McCann abduction has NEVER been questioned by police.
The woman twice saw a man dubbed "Mr Ugly" loitering near the McCann holiday apartment before Maddie, three, vanished.
She reported the sightings to British cops when she returned home from Portugal, but they failed to follow up her lead. It was only when she received an emotional phone call from Maddie's mum Kate, 41, nearly two years later that a photo-fit based on her description was put together.
The angry mum-of-two, 36, who has asked not to be identified, was in an apartment three doors from the McCanns. She said yesterday: "I feel vital time has been lost. Every day I hope Madeleine is found safe.
"When Kate asked me to help, I agreed immediately. But the police should have asked two years ago."
It was only after Kate got in touch that the woman learnt two other witnesses saw an identical man in the resort of Praia da Luz in May 2007. She said: "I can't believe our three sightings weren't linked earlier. It took the McCanns to do that."
The weirdo so unnerved her that she pulled her three-year-old daughter away. Back in England, she told her local police in Wiltshire.
They passed her report to Kate and Gerry McCanns' local force in Leicestershire. She said: "I heard nothing from them."
The woman who featured in a TV documentary about Maddie last week, finally gave her description to the McCanns' own investigators.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OdnhpX6xtuIJ:https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id239.htm+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
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Nothing creepy about it... Butt Out!
Do not talk to me like that.
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The 'Madeleine Was Here' documentary deliberately used the same actor to portray the man seen by three different witnesses, despite the fact that their actual descriptions differed significantly. I wonder why they sought to mislead people?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY&t=846s
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I don't care who did the sketch or whatever you care to call it. What I do know is that she isn't mentioned anywhere until this efit is released to the press. Despite attempts by Dave Edgar to link her sighting and the efit with the sightings by Tasmin Silence and Derek Flack, they produced different efits from her and from each other.
Scarface witness: Police ignored me The Sun
By ANTONELLA LAZZERI
Published: Today (11 May 2009)
A WITNESS who sparked the hunt for a scarfaced suspect in the Madeleine McCann abduction has NEVER been questioned by police.
The woman twice saw a man dubbed "Mr Ugly" loitering near the McCann holiday apartment before Maddie, three, vanished.
She reported the sightings to British cops when she returned home from Portugal, but they failed to follow up her lead. It was only when she received an emotional phone call from Maddie's mum Kate, 41, nearly two years later that a photo-fit based on her description was put together.
The angry mum-of-two, 36, who has asked not to be identified, was in an apartment three doors from the McCanns. She said yesterday: "I feel vital time has been lost. Every day I hope Madeleine is found safe.
"When Kate asked me to help, I agreed immediately. But the police should have asked two years ago."
It was only after Kate got in touch that the woman learnt two other witnesses saw an identical man in the resort of Praia da Luz in May 2007. She said: "I can't believe our three sightings weren't linked earlier. It took the McCanns to do that."
The weirdo so unnerved her that she pulled her three-year-old daughter away. Back in England, she told her local police in Wiltshire.
They passed her report to Kate and Gerry McCanns' local force in Leicestershire. She said: "I heard nothing from them."
The woman who featured in a TV documentary about Maddie last week, finally gave her description to the McCanns' own investigators.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OdnhpX6xtuIJ:https://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id239.htm+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
This is interesting in a few ways.
1. why did the police not pass this on the the PJ?- did they not believe it of find it worth while?
2. why did Kate n Gerry not pass this onto PJ it could have reopened the case?
3. If others saw this 'ugly man' (Good god how judgemental ew) why did crimewatch not make a big deal about it?
I wonderhow many sightings they got from all over the world are they using the fund to go find their daughter in these places?
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Hi Miss Taken Identity, I think when this surfaced, the McCanns have lost confidence that the PJ was acting in Madeleine’s interest.
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Could moderators look at the thread topic and enforce rules... There hasn't been an on topic post in about three days
Members are discussing people who may have been involved with solving the case.
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Hi Miss Taken Identity, I think when this surfaced, the McCanns have lost confidence that the PJ was acting in Madeleine’s interest.
Hi Anthro,
That is one way to look at it, however, another way is they trashed the police from that evening their daughter disappeared!
What brought that on. They claimed , via Gerry's sister who voiced on national TV, that no one was looking for Maddie that it was left to only them two. I never did see an apology or thankyou to those who gave up their sleep and time to search that evening.
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Hi Anthro,
That is one way to look at it, however, another way is they trashed the police from that evening their daughter disappeared!
What brought that on. They claimed , via Gerry's sister who voiced on national TV, that no one was looking for Maddie that it was left to only them two. This is ofcourse a pack of lies- I never did see an apology or thankyou to those who gave up their sleep and time to search that evening.
That isn't true.. But when the truth won't do......
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back on topic- re non professionals solving the case: it could be said that if some one came forward and named a person whom they believed was involved in some way then that could be classed as a non professional solving the case.
It is interesting though that with the reward being offered no one came forward at all.
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back on topic- re non professionals solving the case: it could be said that if some one came forward and named a person whom they believed was involved in some way then that could be classed as a non professional solving the case.
It is interesting though that with the reward being offered no one came forward at all.
How do you know no one came forward at all?
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That's not an e-fit, that's an e-fit up! That's the most accurate e-fit in the history of crime. I'm sorry, but it's too convenient.
Is it an e-fit up or is it legitimate?
Many years ago I had my wallet stolen from my handbag at the place I worked, which always had an open door.
Instantly realising he was up to no good, I stopped the man as he came down stairs, nobody about, and politely asked if I could help him. He didn't answer, so I touched the swell in his jumper to feel my wallet. He instantly ran, knocking me out of the way,almost down the stairs
Because of my seeing him so plainly (and possibly because of my history in portraiture and figure drawing) the Police rushed me the 6 or 7 miles to Lloyd House (West Mids police HQ) in the centre of Brum.
There I was shown hundreds of mugshots and one was strikingly like my man. I am virtually 100% sure it was him, but it was full face and I had only seen him from below. I said I was 99% sure, but that wasn't good enough.
Had this been a major crime and had the man vanished, then I can see no harm in putting forward a caricature image such as the one above, Near enough to jog some potential witnesses memories but not close enough to accuse him. Am i wrong seeing it like that? if identified by a woman with exceptional visual abilities such as Jeni Weinbergers, one should sit up and take notice IMO
But I agree with others, it seems that the Police / Mccann Private Investigaters were possibly already questioning involvement by this man Brech, who had form and had vanished, it seemed, from the face of the earth.
Interesting thread.
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It's definitely not an E-FIT, which as the name suggests is a likeness assembled from various facial features - hair, eyes, nose, mouth, etc. on a computer screen, although in its infancy was carried out with paper/cardboard cutouts, as I recall.
The pencil sketch was done by an experienced amateur artist, who I feel actually saw this mysterious person in reality, or by a professional guided by the input of Jeni Weinberger.
This OU video of an attempt at Judi Dench's face shows how poor E-FITs can be...
https://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=68096§ion=2.4 (https://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=68096§ion=2.4)
Best post in ages.
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I dont see how any member of the public could solve the case...they could come up with a theory but this doesnt equate to solving the case until the suspect is charged and proven guilty. Amaral has a theory...the members of CMOMM have a theory...who says these are not right.
Having looked at hollys claims and the clues shes given away I think its very simple to see who she claims carried out the abduction....the problem is she has no proof ...its simply a claim and not much more than a guess
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I dont see how any member of the public could solve the case...they could come up with a theory but this doesnt equate to solving the case until the suspect is charged and proven guilty. Amaral has a theory...the members of CMOMM have a theory...who says these are not right.
Having looked at hollys claims and the clues shes given away I think its very simple to see who she claims carried out the abduction....the problem is she has no proof ...its simply a claim and not much more than a guess
Holly's theory is interesting but not really a contender imo. SY will have looked at it all the same just in case.
As for a non professional investigator solving the case eventually, I see no reason why not. IMO, identify Smithman and you have solved the case.
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Holly's theory is interesting but not really a contender imo. SY will have looked at it all the same just in case.
As for a non professional investigator solving the case eventually, I see no reason why not. IMO, identify Smithman and you have solved the case.
As Ive already said...if someone had some inside information that would be different...but as it stands I dont see how anyone could solve the case just with the info on the net....
hollys theory is just one of many......and has little or no real evidence to support it
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As Ive already said...if someone had some inside information that would be different...but as it stands I dont see how anyone could solve the case just with the info on the net....
hollys theory is just one of many......and has little or no real evidence to support it
Many non professional investigators like our very own Heri have gone much further than the internet to their credit. I would include Sadie and Shining and a few others in this.
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Hi Davel, I agree, a theory is just a theory. Have you considered that in all the theories, there might be a minor detail that might be significant in Madeleine’s case?
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Hi Davel, I agree, a theory is just a theory. Have you considered that in all the theories, there might be a minor detail that might be significant in Madeleine’s case?
Davel would have us all believe that keyboard warriors have no value. Many of our members have been in touch with both OG and the PJ about the Maddie case and to their credit too!
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Davel would have us all believe that keyboard warriors have no value. Many of our members have been in touch with both OG and the PJ about the Maddie case and to their credit too!
How do you square this allegedly worthwhile contribution from our members to Operation Grange with your other firmly held belief that the Met haven’t got a bloody clue?
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Davel would have us all believe that keyboard warriors have no value. Many of our members have been in touch with both OG and the PJ about the Maddie case and to their credit too!
I certainly do believe that these keyboard warriors have no value.... Do you have any evidence that they do..
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Hi Davel, I agree, a theory is just a theory. Have you considered that in all the theories, there might be a minor detail that might be significant in Madeleine’s case?
Anything is possible but I don't see any evidence that any member here, has been of assistance to SY.
We have Holly insisting she has solved the case... Ridiculing others.... When it seems her theory has not impressed those she thought it might
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Holly's theory is interesting but not really a contender imo. SY will have looked at it all the same just in case.
As for a non professional investigator solving the case eventually, I see no reason why not. IMO, identify Smithman and you have solved the case.
If Smithman is relevant how do you explain the fact the S&R dogs did not scent in his direction? If must then surely mean that MM was placed in a car close to 5A, hence the dogs did not scent outside the immediate vicinity, and then for whatever reason(s) Smithman left the car with MM where they were spotted by the Smith family?
Some here believe KM deceived investigators by giving the dog handlers items that had not been in close proximity to MM's body to enable the dogs to pick up on her scent. Although no one has suggested who they were scenting.
My theory/suspects does not involve any straining of the facts. Its simple the suspects had a legitimate reason to be in close proximity to 5A and had access to a vehicle; MM was placed in a vehicle very close to 5A (sorry I can't provide GPS coordinates 8)--))) and driven away hence the dogs just scented around the immediate vicinity.
Bearing in mind the dogs scent off skin rafts which shed at the rate of 40,000 per minute therefore any slight air disturbance will move these things about akin to snow drifts but the bottom line is the dogs did not scent MM outside immediate vicinity which just happens to stack up with my theory/suspect(s). 8(>(( ?>)()<
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Hi Davel, I agree, a theory is just a theory. Have you considered that in all the theories, there might be a minor detail that might be significant in Madeleine’s case?
The best theories are surely those where the facts do not need to be strained?
Do you have any 'minor details' in mind?
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If Smithman is relevant how do you explain the fact the S&R dogs did not scent in his direction? If must then surely mean that MM was placed in a car close to 5A, hence the dogs did not scent outside the immediate vicinity, and then for whatever reason(s) Smithman left the car with MM where they were spotted by the Smith family?
Some here believe KM deceived investigators by giving the dog handlers items that had not been in close proximity to MM's body to enable the dogs to pick up on her scent. Although no one has suggested who they were scenting.
My theory/suspects does not involve any straining of the facts. Its simple the suspects had a legitimate reason to be in close proximity to 5A and had access to a vehicle; MM was placed in a vehicle very close to 5A (sorry I can't provide GPS coordinates 8)--))) and driven away hence the dogs just scented around the immediate vicinity.
Bearing in mind the dogs scent off skin rafts which shed at the rate of 40,000 per minute therefore any slight air disturbance will move these things about akin to snow drifts but the bottom line is the dogs did not scent MM outside immediate vicinity which just happens to stack up with my theory/suspect(s). 8(>(( ?>)()<
You seem to have ultimate faith in the dogs which I think is misplaced... The fact that you think the perps had a legitimate reason to be around 5a really does, narrow it down. I'm surprised ni one else has cracked your theory. Its really obvious
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You seem to have ultimate faith in the dogs which I think is misplaced... The fact that you think the perps had a legitimate reason to be around 5a really does, narrow it down. I'm surprised ni one else has cracked your theory. Its really obvious
The S&R dogs have a long proven track record over every environment and terrain imaginable. What reasons do you have for believing they tracked wrong in this case?
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The S&R dogs have a long proven track record over every environment and terrain imaginable. What reasons do you have for believing they tracked wrong in this case?
The testimony of their handlers
They may also have pucked up a, scent from a previous day
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The testimony of their handlers
Yes of course they may have been scenting MM's earlier movements and/or the second dog may have simply followed the first but it also might mean that MM was placed in a car in the immediate vicinity hence neither dog tracked outside the immediate vicinity.
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Yes of course they may have been scenting MM's earlier movements and/or the second dog may have simply followed the first but it also might mean that MM was placed in a car in the immediate vicinity hence neither dog tracked outside the immediate vicinity.
So Maddie MAY have been placed in a car... Nothing definite
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So Maddie MAY have been placed in a car... Nothing definite
As I've previously stated my theory/suspect(s) had a legitimate reason to be in close proximity to 5A along with a vehicle. The dogs did not scent MM outside immediate vicinity. I believe the reason for this is that MM was placed in my suspects vehicle parked up near to 5A hence the dogs did not scent outside immediate vicinity.
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As I've previously stated my theory/suspect(s) had a legitimate reason to be in close proximity to 5A along with a vehicle. The dogs did not scent MM outside immediate vicinity. I believe the reason for this is that MM was placed in my suspects vehicle parked up near to 5A hence the dogs did not scent outside immediate vicinity.
And the dogs may or may not support that... I understand your alleged perp had a legitimate reason to be around 5a... And could make a legitimate reason for entering 5a... I just don't think there is, any evidence to support your theory... It's fairly obvious who you are referring to
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And the dogs may or may not support that... I understand your alleged perp had a legitimate reason to be around 5a... And could make a legitimate reason for entering 5a... I just don't think there is, any evidence to support your theory... It's fairly obvious who you, are, referring to
I think it is old hat; if I am correct Misty mentioned the individual if not by name and possible scenarios on the forum many years ago; it was perfectly feasible then and possibly remains perfectly feasible now but I think present investigators will be aware of it without amateur assistance.
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And the dogs may or may not support that... I understand your alleged perp had a legitimate reason to be around 5a... And could make a legitimate reason for entering 5a... I just don't think there is, any evidence to support your theory... It's fairly obvious who you are referring to
Did my suspect(s) have a legitimate reason to enter 5A *%87 I don't think anyone had a legitimate reason to enter 5A other than those who paid to rent it for the week, those who were given permission to enter by those who paid to rent it for a week and those who were paid by OC to maintain 5A eg maintenance personnel and cleaners none of whom had a legitimate right to enter 5A during the evening.
The S&R dogs are just one aspect that support my suspect(s)/theory. On the other hand the dogs do not support Tannerman or Smithman. People can decide for themselves what they choose to believe or not to believe.
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I think it is old hat; if I am correct Misty mentioned the individual if not by name and possible scenarios on the forum many years ago; it was perfectly feasible then and possibly remains perfectly feasible now but I think present investigators will be aware of it without amateur assistance.
It must have been something John overlooked then?
I would have hoped that the individuals concerned had been scrutinised already.
Holly's theory is certainly plausible and as I haven't seen it suggested here previously, full marks for thinking outside the box.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10983.msg557923#msg557923
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Did my suspect(s) have a legitimate reason to enter 5A *%87 I don't think anyone had a legitimate reason to enter 5A other than those who paid to rent it for the week, those who were given permission to enter by those who paid to rent it for a week and those who were paid by OC to maintain 5A eg maintenance personnel and cleaners none of whom had a legitimate right to enter 5A during the evening.
The S&R dogs are just one aspect that support my suspect(s)/theory. On the other hand the dogs do not support Tannerman or Smithman. People can decide for themselves what they choose to believe or not to believe.
Others would have a legitimate reason to enter 5a... Mrs Fenn fir instance if she heard a child crying for an hour
And of course Mrs Fenns daughter
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Others would have a legitimate reason to enter 5a... Mrs Fenn fir instance if she heard a child crying for an hour
And of course Mrs Fenns daughter
I don't think Mrs Fenn would have a legitimate reason to enter 5A no matter how long she heard a child crying for. If she was concerned she could visit or call OC.
Afaik Mrs Fenn didn't have a daughter?
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I don't think Mrs Fenn would have a legitimate reason to enter 5A no matter how long she heard a child crying for. If she was concerned she could visit or call OC.
Afaik Mrs Fenn didn't have a daughter?
Her niece wasn't it visiting?
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I don't think Mrs Fenn would have a legitimate reason to enter 5A no matter how long she heard a child crying for. If she was concerned she could visit or call OC.
Afaik Mrs Fenn didn't have a daughter?
I think she, would have every reason.... Particularly if the door was open... Who was Carole Tranter... Wasn't she connected to Mrs Fenn
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Her niece wasn't it visiting?
Yes... The one who travelled throughout the EU... The one whose testimony Holly has, questioned
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I think she, would have every reason.... Particularly if the door was open... Who was Carole Tranter... Wasn't she connected to Mrs Fenn
Afaik the McCanns didn't leave any doors open?
I believe Carole Tranmer was Mrs Fenn's niece.
No one had a right to enter 5A without the McCanns permission. Even law enforcement would require some sort of warrant if not invited in.
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Yes... The one who travelled throughout the EU... The one whose testimony Holly has, questioned
Where's the evidence the niece travelled throughout the EU?
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Afaik the McCanns didn't leave any doors open?
I believe Carole Tranmer was Mrs Fenn's niece.
No one had a right to enter 5A without the McCanns permission. Even law enforcement would require some sort of warrant if not invited in.
Afaiaa... The patio door was left open.. Mrs fenn heard it opening... If it was locked it couldn't be opened from the outside
If a child was thought to be injured or in distress that would be a legitimate reason to enter
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Where's the evidence the niece travelled throughout the EU?
Wasn't her husband an eu employee
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Wasn't her husband an eu employee
Is there any evidence her husband was an EU employee? If he was how did this lend to his wife travelling throughout EU?
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Is there any evidence her husband was an EU employee? If he was how did this lend to his wife travelling throughout EU?
It's not important... The fact she could enter 5a legitimately perhaps is
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Afaiaa... The patio door was left open.. Mrs fenn heard it opening... If it was locked it couldn't be opened from the outside
If a child was thought to be injured or in distress that would be a legitimate reason to enter
How could the patio door have been left open if Mrs Fenn heard it opening?
Are you conflating open with unsecured?
If I heard some disturbance from a neighbour I would have no right to take it upon myself to start trespassing on private property. If I was that concerned that someone was in imminent danger I would call emergency services or social services.
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It's not important... The fact she could enter 5a legitimately perhaps is
I have no idea what possible reason PF's niece would have for legitimately entering 5A?
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I have no idea what possible reason PF's niece would have for legitimately entering 5A?
I've explained
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How could the patio door have been left open if Mrs Fenn heard it opening?
Are you conflating open with unsecured?
If I heard some disturbance from a neighbour I would have no right to take it upon myself to start trespassing on private property. If I was that concerned that someone was in imminent danger I would call emergency services or social services.
Open as opposed to locked... We disagree on the other point
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I've explained
Mrs Fenn claims she heard crying on 1st May. MM disappeared on 3rd May.
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Open as opposed to locked... We disagree on the other point
Where's the evidence the McCanns left any of the doors open when they went out in the evening?
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Where's the evidence the McCanns left any of the doors open when they went out in the evening?
The mccanns, statements..... Plus Mrs Fenn said they returned via the patio door... Which would have to be unlocked fir them to enter
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The mccanns, statements..... Plus Mrs Fenn said they returned via the patio door... Which would have to be unlocked fir them to enter
The McCanns said they left the patio doors unlocked. Mrs Fenn said she heard the patio doors slide open and although she didn't see the McCanns she assumed it was them returning. No one has said anything about the doors left open.
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The McCanns said they left the patio doors unlocked. Mrs Fenn said she heard the patio doors slide open and although she didn't see the McCanns she assumed it was them returning. No one has said anything about the doors left open
Open as in unlocked
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Open as in unlocked
Oh ok but there's a world of difference between doors closed but unlocked and open doors. Either way no one had any legitimate right to enter 5A unless of course there was clear signs of imminent danger eg a fire breaking out. I don't believe a child crying amounts to imminent danger. If PF was so concerned she could have called OC reception instead of a local friend.
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Oh ok but there's a world of difference between doors closed but unlocked and open doors. Either way no one had any legitimate right to enter 5A unless of course there was clear signs of imminent danger eg a fire breaking out. I don't believe a child crying amounts to imminent danger. If PF was so concerned she could have called OC reception instead of a local friend.
I disagree. Your criteria for 'legitimate right' are flawed. If the resident above heard a continued, distressed child crying, knowing that in all likelihood the parents were out, then that person would be well within their rights to intervene. Imminent danger wouldn't be the only reason, you just decided that's the case.
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I disagree. Your criteria for 'legitimate right' are flawed. If the resident above heard a continued, distressed child crying, knowing that in all likelihood the parents were out, then that person would be well within their rights to intervene. Imminent danger wouldn't be the only reason, you just decided that's the case.
Where do you think the law stands?
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Where do you think the law stands?
Don't know. But I'm sure the moral reasoning would outweigh the legal implications, or at least mitigate them.
Would you smash a car window to help a dog dying of heat exhaustion? Depends where your moral compass is I suppose.
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Oh ok but there's a world of difference between doors closed but unlocked and open doors. Either way no one had any legitimate right to enter 5A unless of course there was clear signs of imminent danger eg a fire breaking out. I don't believe a child crying amounts to imminent danger. If PF was so concerned she could have called OC reception instead of a local friend.
You are giving your opinion which is fine ...but it isn't fact
If CT had entered the apartment through an unlocked door.. to investigate a distressed child she, would be committing no offence
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Where do you think the law stands?
And in any event as I've pointed out PF's wit stat states she heard crying on 1st May and that on 3rd May she did not hear anything not even the opening and closing of doors:
When asked, she replied that on 3rd May she did not hear any noise from the McCann apartment, not even the opening of doors.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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You are giving your opinion which is fine ...but it isn't fact
If CT had entered the apartment through an unlocked door.. to investigate a distressed child she, would be committing no offence
Where's the evidence of a distressed child on 3rd May?
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Where do you think the law stands?
There is no law of trespass
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Where's the evidence of a distressed child on 3rd May?
Any perp.... If caught in the, apt could claim she had heard a child crying
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You are giving your opinion which is fine ...but it isn't fact
If CT had entered the apartment through an unlocked door.. to investigate a distressed child she, would be committing no offence
Technically it may be trespass, which is a civil violation. You'd be hard-pressed to push a charge of breaking and entering, given that there was no breaking to speak of and the moral reasons I discussed earlier. Not even the inept, sardine-munching, keystone cope-like layabouts of the PJ would go for that one against a concerned, elderly lady.
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Any perp.... If caught in the, apt could claim she had heard a child crying
Or he?
But if he/she wanted to abduct a child and thought ok if I'm caught I will say he/she was crying they would have to know a) a child was in the apartment and b) they could gain access and c) if caught they could quickly induce crying if the child wasn't in fact crying!
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Technically it may be trespass, which is a civil violation. You'd be hard-pressed to push a charge of breaking and entering, given that there was no breaking to speak of and the moral reasons I discussed earlier. Not even the inept, sardine-munching, keystone cope-like layabouts of the PJ would go for that one against a concerned, elderly lady.
But why would a concerned elderly lady take it upon herself to venture into unknown territory during the hours of darkness which in any event didn't actually happen. Surely the concerned elderly lady would simply pick up her phone and call OC main reception where she could remain anonymous and just say she could hear on-going crying which appeared to be from apartment 5A?
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Or he?
But if he/she wanted to abduct a child and thought ok if I'm caught I will say he/she was crying they would have to know a) a child was in the apartment and b) they could gain access and c) if caught they could quickly induce crying if the child wasn't in fact crying!
I understand... According to you... The perp knew Maddie was without adult supervision
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But why would a concerned elderly lady take it upon herself to venture into unknown territory during the hours of darkness which in any event didn't actually happen. Surely the concerned elderly lady would simply pick up her phone and call OC main reception where she could remain anonymous and just say she could hear on-going crying which appeared to be from apartment 5A?
Mrs Fenn may not have... But didn't you say your perp may have had altruistic intent
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But why would a concerned elderly lady take it upon herself to venture into unknown territory during the hours of darkness which in any event didn't actually happen. Surely the concerned elderly lady would simply pick up her phone and call OC main reception where she could remain anonymous and just say she could hear on-going crying which appeared to be from apartment 5A?
Maybe. Maybe not. I thought we were talking hypothetically, attempting to establish justification for entering the apartment. You categorically stated that nobody had the 'right', wheres I was positing a scenario whereby the act may justified / rationalised by a reasonable person.
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But why would a concerned elderly lady take it upon herself to venture into unknown territory during the hours of darkness which in any event didn't actually happen. Surely the concerned elderly lady would simply pick up her phone and call OC main reception where she could remain anonymous and just say she could hear on-going crying which appeared to be from apartment 5A?
The question arises... Why didn't Mrs Fenn do this..
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The question arises... Why didn't Mrs Fenn do this..
Why would she?
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I understand... According to you... The perp knew Maddie was without adult supervision
Mrs Fenn's wit stat states she heard crying which in her opinion was from a child MM's age and emanated from 5A. The crying and calling 'Daddy, daddy' started around 10.30 pm and ended around 11.45 pm at which time she heard the patio doors slide open. What can reasonably be inferred from this:
- MM was home alone
- The patio doors were unlocked
Mrs Fenn's wit stat also states she called local friend Edna Glyn to discuss the siutation. What can reasonably be inferred from this:
- PF was discussing with others
- Others may have discussed with others
- Others may have overheard
So yes imo the perp was someone who gleaned intelligence from PF that:
- MM was home alone without adult supervision/baby monitor
- Patio doors were unlocked
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The question arises... Why didn't Mrs Fenn do this..
Perhaps because she had no connection to the OC.
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Mrs Fenn's wit stat states she heard crying which in her opinion was from a child MM's age and emanated from 5A. The crying and calling 'Daddy, daddy' started around 10.30 pm and ended around 11.45 pm at which time she heard the patio doors slide open. What can reasonably be inferred from this:
- MM was home alone
- The patio doors were unlocked
Mrs Fenn's wit stat also states she called local friend Edna Glyn to discuss the siutation. What can reasonably be inferred from this:
- PF was discussing with others
- Others may have discussed with others
- Others may have overheard
So yes imo the perp was someone who gleaned intelligence from PF that:
- MM was home alone without adult supervision/baby monitor
- Patio doors were unlocked
I had already worked out that the information came from PF.
It sort of narrows, the field
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Perhaps because she had no connection to the OC.
I don't see that, as a valid reason
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I had already worked out that the information came from PF.
It sort of narrows, the field
Not really because we don't know who PF imparted the info to and who in turn they imparted to and who might have overheard. We only know from PF's wit stat she discussed with Edna Glyn.
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I don't see that, as a valid reason
PF was an elderly lady enjoying her twilight years not some sort of remote unpaid child minder/social worker.
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You are giving your opinion which is fine ...but it isn't fact
If CT had entered the apartment through an unlocked door.. to investigate a distressed child she, would be committing no offence
As I understand it you break the law if you enter someone else's premises through an unlocked door or window without permission.
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As I understand it you break the law if you enter someone else's premises through an unlocked door or window without permission.
In fact no
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Mrs Fenn's wit stat states she heard crying which in her opinion was from a child MM's age and emanated from 5A. The crying and calling 'Daddy, daddy' started around 10.30 pm and ended around 11.45 pm at which time she heard the patio doors slide open. What can reasonably be inferred from this:
- MM was home alone
- The patio doors were unlocked
Mrs Fenn's wit stat also states she called local friend Edna Glyn to discuss the siutation. What can reasonably be inferred from this:
- PF was discussing with others
- Others may have discussed with others
- Others may have overheard
So yes imo the perp was someone who gleaned intelligence from PF that:
- MM was home alone without adult supervision/baby monitor
- Patio doors were unlocked
Ooooo ooooo Davel don't forget too PF sustained an attempted burglary a few days before the McCanns arrival. PF's wit stat:
She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
Do you think the perp might have 'staged' the window and shutter from within to throw PF and investigators perhaps with knowledge gleaned from PF?
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Not really because we don't know who PF imparted the info to and who in turn they imparted to and who might have overheard. We only know from PF's wit stat she discussed with Edna Glyn.
I would say it narrows the field... According to you the perp had received information from or second hand from Mrs fenn
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As I understand it you break the law if you enter someone else's premises through an unlocked door or window without permission.
I'm not sure where the law stands English or Portuguese but in any event I think its (to coin a word from Davel) ridiculous to expect an elderly lady in her 80's to enter into an apartment during the hours of darkness to interfere with distressed children that she had no connection with.
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I would say it narrows the field... According to you the perp had received information from or second hand from Mrs fenn
Yes I've always maintained the field is narrow.
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I'm not sure where the law stands English or Portuguese but in any event I think its (to coin a word from Davel) ridiculous to expect an elderly lady in her 80's to enter into an apartment during the hours of darkness to interfere with distressed children that she had no connection with.
You've moved this on from hypothesising. We are trying to establish a justifiable reason for anyone to enter, short of imminent danger.
I think we've established it.
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In fact no
Even the police can't enter without permission or a warrant.
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You've moved this on from hypothesising. We are trying to establish a justifiable reason for anyone to enter, short of imminent danger.
I think we've established it.
But even if a justifiable reason existed for anyone to enter what possible justification existed to remove MM?
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But even if a justifiable reason existed for anyone to enter what possible justification existed to remove MM?
Well there obviously is one......by fair means or fowl, by hook or by crook, dead or alive!
And there are only a finite number of reasonable hypothesis; all of which have been wrung dry.
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Even the police can't enter without permission or a warrant.
Yes they can..if there is a reason... Fire etc... Child in danger or distressed
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Yes they can..if there is a reason... Fire etc... Child in danger or distressed
A very fine line; a crying child isn't a reason to enter.
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A very fine line; a crying child isn't a reason to enter.
In your opinion... A distressed child is... Imo
Unless you feel a child left unattended who is crying is in no danger and should be left
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Back to the opening post....
Yes, especially in this case given Portuguese law whereby all evidence is released into the public domain post case closed.
The PJ files contain all relevant wit stats along with info from police officers, experts and forensics all of which are easily accessible via the internet. Plus the internet allows us to perform numerous other tasks eg Google maps to consider key locations etc, etc.
Solving a crime is no different to solving any problem which is something we all do everyday ranging from the small eg where did I leave my keys to bigger problems in the workplace etc.
I don't think it's possible for a non-professional to solve the case as they cannot properly investigate the original Portuguese investigation team. IMO there were two separate crimes & the first cannot be solved before the second has been proven.
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Holly: “The best theories are surely those where the facts do not need to be strained? Do you have any 'minor details' in mind?”
I doubt that any complete theory from a member of the public will solve the case. By means of triangulation though, authorities may be able to study some detail(s) across theories to advance the case e.g theories x, y and z all mention a grey/dark blue car parked close to Madeleine’s bedroom window during the evening of 3 May 2007.
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Holly: “The best theories are surely those where the facts do not need to be strained? Do you have any 'minor details' in mind?”
I doubt that any complete theory from a member of the public will solve the case. By means of triangulation though, authorities may be able to study some detail(s) across theories to advance the case e.g theories x, y and z all mention a grey/dark blue car parked close to Madeleine’s bedroom window during the evening of 3 May 2007.
Hi Anthro. I've looked at enough of these cases now to know that the "authorities" are not all they are cracked up to be eg Knox/Sollecito (Italy), Bain (NZ) and many high profile historic miscarriages of justice in the UK.
In this case, with a lack of leadership and oversight its all to play for imo.
Must dash I want to watch international footy ko 7.45 pm Bulgaria v England.
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In your opinion... A distressed child is... Imo
Unless you feel a child left unattended who is crying is in no danger and should be left
I don't think the police would respond if telephoned and told that a child was crying in a property.
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Don't know. But I'm sure the moral reasoning would outweigh the legal implications, or at least mitigate them.
Would you smash a car window to help a dog dying of heat exhaustion? Depends where your moral compass is I suppose.
The police in the States call it a welfare check. Probably better to have authorities involved as they have the tendency to shoot trespasses over there.
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I don't think the police would respond if telephoned and told that a child was crying in a property.
I never said they would... I explained that trespass is not a criminal offence... As you seem to think
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I don't think the police would respond if telephoned and told that a child was crying in a property.
I remember when I popped to the petrol station for some supplies... My 10 yr old son thought he was on his own with his two younger siblings and phoned the police.. The police came... Climbed over the fence and entered the house through an unlocked door... My wife was in fact upstairs in the shower and hadn't come with me
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Jeezuz H. None of you can even agree on anything that happened when, let alone how or why. You can't even agree on a Day.
It has always been very simple to me. Someone stole a child with some knowledge aforethought. The risks were to great for otherwise.
Yep, I do have a theory, but not something that I am prepared to talk about because I am not so arrogant as to assume.
But there is no way in which that child would have been stolen by some potential child abuser when such children are two a penny on the streets of anywhere.
The continued assumption that The McCanns had anything to do with this leaves me nearly bereft for those of you who do. Heaven alone knows what must have been done to you all for you to think of such.
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I remember when I popped to the petrol station for some supplies... My 10 yr old son thought he was on his own with his two younger siblings and phoned the police.. The police came... Climbed over the fence and entered the house through an unlocked door... My wife was in fact upstairs in the shower and hadn't come with me
The first thing the police do is ring the doorbell or knock. I've seen it on one of the police programmes. A neighbout phoned to tell them two children were home alone.
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The first thing the police do is ring the doorbell or knock. I've seen it on one of the police programmes. A neighbout phoned to tell them two children were home alone.
They may well do but if no one answers they enter
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They may well do but if no one answers they enter
Did they knock on your door then?
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Did they knock on your door then?
Isn't that a rather stupid question?
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Isn't that a rather stupid question?
A 10 year old phones the police and says he's home alone with younger sibllings. Perhaps it's true, perhaps not. The first step for the police is to knock on the front door and see who answers.
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A 10 year old phones the police and says he's home alone with younger sibllings. Perhaps it's true, perhaps not. The first step for the police is to knock on the front door and see who answers.
What if no one answers
The house is behind a wall with security gates. The police have already trespassed by entering my garden
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A 10 year old phones the police and says he's home alone with younger sibllings. Perhaps it's true, perhaps not. The first step for the police is to knock on the front door and see who answers.
I don't understand why you are doing this. You have always seemed more reasonable to me.
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I rather think we're drifting off into la la land here....
There's surely a world of difference in the police getting involved in a domestic situation on home territory where the police can swiftly carry out background checks on the occupants etc and neighbours/local community might well know something about the occupants too. At OC the occupants are almost exclusively holiday makers renting apartments for very short periods of time where the authorities would have no idea about the occupants without referring to OC nor would the other residents/holiday makers have any idea either. PF was in a unique position in that she was the only full-time resident but even so she only had knowledge of the McCanns over the 3 days prior to the crying incident. I can't see any reason whatsoever why she would be expected to take it upon herself to get involved and go investigate the crying.
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I rather think we're drifting off into la la land here....
There's surely a world of difference in the police getting involved in a domestic situation on home territory where the police can swiftly carry out background checks on the occupants etc and neighbours/local community might well know something about the occupants too. At OC the occupants are almost exclusively holiday makers renting apartments for very short periods of time where the authorities would have no idea about the occupants without referring to OC nor would the other residents/holiday makers have any idea either. PF was in a unique position in that she was the only full-time resident but even so she only had knowledge of the McCanns over the 3 days prior to the crying incident. I can't see any reason whatsoever why she would be expected to take it upon herself to get involved and go investigate the crying.
If I heard a child crying for over an hour I would certainly investigate... By going to the apartment.
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i remember reading years ago that a couple went in the apartment the night maddie was crying?? to comfort her
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I don't think that was ever substantiated. Probably one of these media-created stories.
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I don't think that was ever substantiated. Probably one of these media-created stories.
But believed by many it seems
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If I heard a child crying for over an hour I would certainly investigate... By going to the apartment.
Mrs Fenn should have reported the matter to reception so that appropriate action could be taken. The ironic thing is that had she done so then things might have turned out so differently.
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Mrs Fenn should have reported the matter to reception so that appropriate action could be taken. The ironic thing is that had she done so then things might have turned out so differently.
Do you think the McCanns et al would have paid any attention ?
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Do you think the McCanns et al would have paid any attention ?
Yes.
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Mrs Fenn should have reported the matter to reception so that appropriate action could be taken. The ironic thing is that had she done so then things might have turned out so differently.
Totally agree
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Do you think the McCanns et al would have paid any attention ?
Yes
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I rather think we're drifting off into la la land here....
There's surely a world of difference in the police getting involved in a domestic situation on home territory where the police can swiftly carry out background checks on the occupants etc and neighbours/local community might well know something about the occupants too. At OC the occupants are almost exclusively holiday makers renting apartments for very short periods of time where the authorities would have no idea about the occupants without referring to OC nor would the other residents/holiday makers have any idea either. PF was in a unique position in that she was the only full-time resident but even so she only had knowledge of the McCanns over the 3 days prior to the crying incident. I can't see any reason whatsoever why she would be expected to take it upon herself to get involved and go investigate the crying.
At the time she heard the crying she knew nothing about the family. They hadn't disturbed her before that because they were out most of the time. All she knew of them was having seen them walking around the resort.
Her friend Edna Glyn's reaction shows, perhaps, the attitude of local residents to the holidaymakers. She 'wasn't surprised' when told that a child had been crying for over half an hour. Perhaps it wasn't unusual in a resort where adults were given free booze with their dinners that they were slow to respond to a crying child.
Mrs Fenn didn't say that she knew the children were home alone on 1st.
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Oh I see, right, so it's all Mrs Fenn's fault that Maddie wasn't abducted. *&^^&
Blame anyone but the Mc Parents, isn't it.
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"Why didn't you come when Sean & I cried?"
'Oh sorry hun, that was Mrs Fenn's job'
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Oh I see, right, so it's all Mrs Fenn's fault that Maddie wasn't abducted. *&^^&
Blame anyone but the Mc Parents, isn't it.
I thought it was her neices fault
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Someone should have looked in on Maddie.
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Someone should have looked in on Maddie.
No one is blaming Mrs Fenn... I don't think she heard Maddie crying for over an hour.
I've said what I would do in the circumstances... And if I hadn't intervened in those circumstances I would put some blame on myself
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No one is blaming Mrs Fenn... I don't think she heard Maddie crying for over an hour.
I've said what I would do in the circumstances... And if I hadn't intervened in those circumstances I would put some blame on myself
She was concerned enough that she telephoned her friend for advice as to what she should do, intervene or not.
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She was concerned enough that she telephoned her friend for advice as to what she should do, intervene or not.
I'd prefer to hear Mrs Fenns own account rather than the non verbatim translation by the unnoficial police interpreter
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If I heard a child crying for over an hour I would certainly investigate... By going to the apartment.
But you're not PF. By all accounts PF was an elderly widow in her 80's with arthritis who had downsized from her previous abode in nearby Lagos for an easy life at Waterside Gardens. Is it really reasonable to expect such an individual to venture out during the hours of darkness/low season when no one was around to investigate?
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At the time she heard the crying she knew nothing about the family. They hadn't disturbed her before that because they were out most of the time. All she knew of them was having seen them walking around the resort.
Her friend Edna Glyn's reaction shows, perhaps, the attitude of local residents to the holidaymakers. She 'wasn't surprised' when told that a child had been crying for over half an hour. Perhaps it wasn't unusual in a resort where adults were given free booze with their dinners that they were slow to respond to a crying child.
Mrs Fenn didn't say that she knew the children were home alone on 1st.
At the time of the crying she may not have known whether or not the children were home alone but come 11.45 pm she may have deduced they were as the crying ceased upon her hearing the patio doors slide open although she did not actually see the McCanns.
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But you're not PF. By all accounts PF was an elderly widow in her 80's with arthritis who had downsized from her previous abode in nearby Lagos for an easy life at Waterside Gardens. Is it really reasonable to expect such an individual to venture out during the hours of darkness/low season when no one was around to investigate?
No it isn't... That's, why I said I didn't blame her... I said what I would do... I'm quite pro-active in those sort of situations
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I'd prefer to hear Mrs Fenns own account rather than the non verbatim translation by the unnoficial police interpreter
What reason(s) do you have to believe Mrs Fenn's wit stat is inaccurate?
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No one is blaming Mrs Fenn... I don't think she heard Maddie crying for over an hour.
I've said what I would do in the circumstances... And if I hadn't intervened in those circumstances I would put some blame on myself
Why do you believe PF's wit stat is inaccurate?
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I thought it was her neices fault
It seems the niece visited on the Sunday and the Thursday not the Tuesday when PF's wit stat states MM was crying.
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Why do you believe PF's wit stat is inaccurate?
I think it could be inaccurate... I don't think we can safely say any of the statements, are accurate. Kate has, already said there's, weren't and they made new ones
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It seems the niece visited on the Sunday and the Thursday not the Tuesday when PF's wit stat states MM was crying.
I was thinking outside the box
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Mrs Fenn should have reported the matter to reception so that appropriate action could be taken. The ironic thing is that had she done so then things might have turned out so differently.
I agree imo that would be the most sensible course of action but we don't know what thoughts went through her mind during the incident. It seems from her wit stat she was concerned that it might have been connected to burglary/attempted burglary given she was the victim of such a week prior to the McCanns arrival.
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I think it could be inaccurate... I don't think we can safely say any of the statements, are accurate. Kate has, already said there's, weren't and they made new ones
Well there's inaccurate and then there's inaccurate. I guess PF could have been mistaken over the day/timings but this could have been checked at the time by investigating authorities looking at phone records: PF to Edna Glyn. I don't think there's any doubt she heard prolonged crying from 5A and even if her account is totally unreliable in every aspect if she was letting others effectively know small children were home alone in 5A and the patio doors unsecured it was a green light for any would be abductor!
There's no doubt in my mind that MM was abducted from 5A and intelligence for the abduction was gleaned from PF. PF's wit stat is dated 20th Aug 2007 and I believe this was the first time investigating authorities contacted her by which time Amaral had already seized on the McCanns.
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I agree imo that would be the most sensible course of action but we don't know what thoughts went through her mind during the incident. It seems from her wit stat she was concerned that it might have been connected to burglary/attempted burglary given she was the victim of such a week prior to the McCanns arrival.
Again if the abductor gleaned all this intelligence from PF:
- Children home alone
- Patio doors unsecured
it makes me wonder if the abductor also learned of PF's recent attempted burglary and staged the shutter/window from within in an attempt to throw PF and investigating authorities.
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No need to investigate any further. It's already been solved by a non-professional ghost-hunting crank...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpDG0k7XD8U&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpDG0k7XD8U&feature=youtu.be)
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Again if the abductor gleaned all this intelligence from PF:
- Children home alone
- Patio doors unsecured
it makes me wonder if the abductor also learned of PF's recent attempted burglary and staged the shutter/window from within in an attempt to throw PF and investigating authorities.
What I would like to know is who this mysterious gleaner was?
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What I would like to know is who this mysterious gleaner was?
Hasn't Holly told you
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Hasn't Holly told you
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At the time of the crying she may not have known whether or not the children were home alone but come 11.45 pm she may have deduced they were as the crying ceased upon her hearing the patio doors slide open although she did not actually see the McCanns.
The patio doors could have been opened for a variety of reasons, so why would she deduce it was because both parents were entering the apartment? She admits she didn't see them.
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The patio doors could have been opened for a variety of reasons, so why would she deduce it was because both parents were entering the apartment? She admits she didn't see them.
Mrs Fenn lived permanently above 5a so was well aware of those particular sounds associated with people coming and going. She probably heard the parents voices followed by the opening of the patio door so put two and two together.
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Mrs Fenn lived permanently above 5a so was well aware of those particular sounds associated with people coming and going. She probably heard the parents voices followed by the opening of the patio door so put two and two together.
That's not what she said, however. I wonder why she heard the patio doors on 1st but heard nothing on 3rd until 10:30pm?
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That's not what she said, however. I wonder why she heard the patio doors on 1st but heard nothing on 3rd until 10:30pm?
Read her wit stat G-Unit...
When asked, she replied that on 3rd May she did not hear any noise from the McCann apartment, not even the opening of doors. She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late.
What was her definition of "late"?
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
On 1st May PF claims the crying started at 10.30 pm to 11.45 pm.
On 3rd May KM raised the alarm re MM's disappearance at circa 10 pm.
PF may well have listened to the teli during the evenings including the 10 pm news and then retired to her bed by circa 10.30 pm hence anything post circa 10.30 pm she was able to hear clearly as her apartment was without background noise.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
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Read her wit stat G-Unit...
When asked, she replied that on 3rd May she did not hear any noise from the McCann apartment, not even the opening of doors. She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late.
What was her definition of "late"?
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
On 1st May PF claims the crying started at 10.30 pm to 11.45 pm.
On 3rd May KM raised the alarm re MM's disappearance at circa 10 pm.
PF may well have listened to the teli during the evenings including the 10 pm news and then retired to her bed by circa 10.30 pm hence anything post circa 10.30 pm she was able to hear clearly as her apartment was without background noise.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
No-one knows why she heard nothing until 10:30pm on 3rd May, but the fact is that she didn't.
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No-one knows why she heard nothing until 10:30pm on 3rd May, but the fact is that she didn't.
I disagree. Firstly KM's book states a woman with a rather plummy accent (any accent South of the Watford Gap is considered 'plummy' by Liverpudlians) inquired what all the noise was about. What time was that? Secondly they are clearly two different time zones:
1st May
- 10.30 pm - 11.45 pm heard what she thought was MM crying and calling 'Daddy, daddy'...
3rd May
- Pre 10 pm when she heard nothing
- Circa 10 pm when KM raised the alarm and PF inquired what all the noise was about.
- Circa 10.30 pm when PF claims she offered up her tel to GM.
Pre 10.30 pm. Post 10.30 pm.
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I disagree. Firstly KM's book states a woman with a rather plummy accent (any accent South of the Watford Gap is considered 'plummy' by Liverpudlians) inquired what all the noise was about. What time was that? Secondly they are clearly two different time zones:
1st May
- 10.30 pm - 11.45 pm heard what she thought was MM crying and calling 'Daddy, daddy'...
3rd May
- Pre 10 pm when she heard nothing
- Circa 10 pm when KM raised the alarm and PF inquired what all the noise was about.
- Circa 10.30 pm when PF claims she offered up her tel to GM.
Pre 10.30 pm. Post 10.30 pm.
Can I ask why you persist in referring to Kate’s book as a “book” when you know it annoys some members of the forum? Do you have a problem with people from Liverpool and how they speak?
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No need to investigate any further. It's already been solved by a non-professional ghost-hunting crank...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpDG0k7XD8U&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpDG0k7XD8U&feature=youtu.be)
Lol as you said 'crank'!
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I disagree. Firstly KM's book states a woman with a rather plummy accent (any accent South of the Watford Gap is considered 'plummy' by Liverpudlians) inquired what all the noise was about. What time was that? Secondly they are clearly two different time zones:
1st May
- 10.30 pm - 11.45 pm heard what she thought was MM crying and calling 'Daddy, daddy'...
3rd May
- Pre 10 pm when she heard nothing
- Circa 10 pm when KM raised the alarm and PF inquired what all the noise was about.
- Circa 10.30 pm when PF claims she offered up her tel to GM.
Pre 10.30 pm. Post 10.30 pm.
I find you continued use of the word book quite childish. I find your belief you have solved the case when you obviously
haven't quite childish... I cant take any of your posts seriously... I wonder if others feel the same and that is why the forum has gone so quiet
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Lol as you said 'crank'!
I don't think you are in a position to refer to anyone as a crank... LOL
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Can I ask why you persist in referring to Kate’s book as a “book” when you know it annoys some members of the forum? Do you have a problem with people from Liverpool and how they speak?
No need for anyone to get annoyed by my style of posting when a clear choice exists: read/don't read.
Anyone who reads my posts will know the North/South divide is part of my repertoire!
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No need for anyone to get annoyed by my style of posting when a clear choice exists: read/don't read.
Anyone who reads my posts will know the North/South divide is part of my repertoire!
I am annoyed, can I put you on ignore Ms Moderator? I thought the role of a moderator should include not winding up members of the forum deliberately?
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I find you continued use of the word book quite childish. I find your belief you have solved the case when you obviously
haven't quite childish... I cant take any of your posts seriously... I wonder if others feel the same and that is why the forum has gone so quiet
As I said up thread no one needs to read my posts when a clear choice exists: read/don't read.
If you're so concerned about how others feel/level of activity on the forum then why not undertake a poll in an attempt to determine?
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As I said up thread no one needs to read my posts when a clear choice exists: read/don't read.
If you're so concerned about how others feel/level of activity on the forum then why not undertake a poll in an attempt to determine?
Why can’t you just refer to the book by the word book? Is it your intention to get some peoples’ backs up?
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As I said up thread no one needs to read my posts when a clear choice exists: read/don't read.
If you're so concerned about how others feel/level of activity on the forum then why not undertake a poll in an attempt to determine?
I'm not concerned in the slightest... I find it all quite laughable
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No need for anyone to get annoyed by my style of posting when a clear choice exists: read/don't read.
Anyone who reads my posts will know the North/South divide is part of my repertoire!
Little things annoy little minds - IMO
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Little things annoy little minds - IMO
Abusive and rude.
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I am annoyed, can I put you on ignore Ms Moderator? I thought the role of a moderator should include not winding up members of the forum deliberately?
Do you really think the McCanns care if they and/or their children are referred to by their initials? Likewise for KM's book? The McCanns have lost a child in tragic circumstances; many people on and offline think they accidentally killed their daughter and covered it up; they are involved in a costly and exhausting legal battle. Please put my "childish" comments into perspective.
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No need for anyone to get annoyed by my style of posting when a clear choice exists: read/don't read.
Anyone who reads my posts will know the North/South divide is part of my repertoire!
As a scouser, whilst I don't take any of your stereotypical references to heart, you are way off the mark. We're not the Harry Enfield devices that you refer to and the north - south thing is barely mentioned - it's not the 80's.
The 'plummy accent / south of the Watford Gap' reference is also off the mark. We perhaps hold a more derogatory stance with the occupants of the towns directly around Liverpool than we do with anyone else.
But crack on, you seem to have your finger on the pulse of 1987
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Do you really think the McCanns care if they and/or their children are referred to by their initials? Likewise for KM's book? The McCanns have lost a child in tragic circumstances; many people on and offline think they accidentally killed their daughter and covered it up; they are involved in a costly and exhausting legal battle. Please put my "childish" comments into perspective.
This isn’t about the McCanns, it’s about your role as a moderator. Would it be ok for Brietta and Eleanor to continually refer to Amaral as Amaral deliberately to wind up sceptics? Yes or no?
ETA, haha, the forum autocorrect has answered for me. It is not permitted to refer to A M O R A L as it winds up his fanclub. I suggest we ban “book” because it is a deliberate goad, or re-permit the use of all forbidden words.
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I don't think you are in a position to refer to anyone as a crank... LOL
Do you know who the individual is in the Video Myster uploaded?
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This isn’t about the McCanns, it’s about your role as a moderator. Would it be ok for Brietta and Eleanor to continually refer to Amaral as Amaral deliberately to wind up sceptics? Yes or no?
I'm sorry I've no idea what you are referring to.
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I'm sorry I've no idea what you are referring to.
See my amended post above.
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Do you really think the McCanns care if they and/or their children are referred to by their initials? Likewise for KM's book? The McCanns have lost a child in tragic circumstances; many people on and offline think they accidentally killed their daughter and covered it up; they are involved in a costly and exhausting legal battle. Please put my "childish" comments into perspective.
It just seems an unnecessary and insulting way to change the word book to "book" in order to make fun of a regional accent .
I'm sure the McCanns don't care but I do find it tiresome.
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If the McCanns don't care why should anyone else ?
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As a scouser, whilst I don't take any of your stereotypical references to heart, you are way off the mark. We're not the Harry Enfield devices that you refer to and the north - south thing is barely mentioned - it's not the 80's.
The 'plummy accent / south of the Watford Gap' reference is also off the mark. We perhaps hold a more derogatory stance with the occupants of the towns directly around Liverpool than we do with anyone else.
But crack on, you seem to have your finger on the pulse of 1987
Exactly this.
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If the McCanns don't care why should anyone else ?
I’m sure Am o ral doesn’t mind his name being misspelt, so that is what I am going to do from now on, and ain’t no autocorrect gonna stop me!
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If the McCanns don't care why should anyone else ?
Don't you think it has now become tiresome or do you find it amusing?
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Don't you think it has now become tiresome or do you find it amusing?
Neither, though what I do find amusing is people claiming to be upset about such trivia.
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This isn’t about the McCanns, it’s about your role as a moderator. Would it be ok for Brietta and Eleanor to continually refer to Amaral as Amaral deliberately to wind up sceptics? Yes or no?
ETA, haha, the forum autocorrect has answered for me. It is not permitted to refer to A M O R A L as it winds up his fanclub. I suggest we ban “book” because it is a deliberate goad, or re-permit the use of all forbidden words.
If folk get wound up by the use of "Amaral" or "book" it sounds to me as though they have low levels of tolerance. How about focusing on post content as opposed to the odd re-arranged letter?
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I disagree. Firstly KM's book states a woman with a rather plummy accent (any accent South of the Watford Gap is considered 'plummy' by Liverpudlians) inquired what all the noise was about. What time was that? Secondly they are clearly two different time zones:
1st May
- 10.30 pm - 11.45 pm heard what she thought was MM crying and calling 'Daddy, daddy'...
3rd May
- Pre 10 pm when she heard nothing
- Circa 10 pm when KM raised the alarm and PF inquired what all the noise was about.
- Circa 10.30 pm when PF claims she offered up her tel to GM.
Pre 10.30 pm. Post 10.30 pm.
Saying someone has a plummy voice doesn't mean they come from south of the Watford Gap. Cockneys don't have plummy voices, the upper classes do. The word is used to criticise, not to describe.
I wonder what the 'short and to the point' reply shouted by Kate and Fiona to Mrs Fenn was? More Ango Saxon than plummy I expect.
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Neither, though what I do find amusing is people claiming to be upset about such trivia.
It does irritate me when reading a post, and I do read most posts on the forum, to read the word "book".
It does alter somewhat the flow of the sentence.
I find it unnecessary , somewhat insulting and very "old hat".
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Saying someone has a plummy voice doesn't mean they come from south of the Watford Gap. Cockneys don't have plummy voices, the upper classes do. The word is used to criticise, not to describe.
I wonder what the 'short and to the point' reply shouted by Kate and Fiona to Mrs Fenn was? More Ango Saxon than plummy I expect.
I've pointed out previously KM's judgement of PF and her 'plummy' accent.
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Do you really think the McCanns care if they and/or their children are referred to by their initials? Likewise for KM's book? The McCanns have lost a child in tragic circumstances; many people on and offline think they accidentally killed their daughter and covered it up; they are involved in a costly and exhausting legal battle. Please put my "childish" comments into perspective.
As far as I know neither Kate nor Gerry McCann are members of the forum and have expressed no opinion one way or another regarding your posting style.
Some forum members have expressed opinions ... myself included.
I can appreciate that there may be some gain in initialising in context; few would have to puzzle over, for example ... SY or PJ ... but not HEH unless previously referenced in the post by the full name of Hoos Evert Hendrik which I believe to be protocol.
"book" in my opinion is harder to type than "Book" and therefore comes into no category other than for your own particular reasons best known to yourself.
I believe it devalues what you are posting and I for one switch off when I see it.
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Saying someone has a plummy voice doesn't mean they come from south of the Watford Gap. Cockneys don't have plummy voices, the upper classes do. The word is used to criticise, not to describe.
I wonder what the 'short and to the point' reply shouted by Kate and Fiona to Mrs Fenn was? More Ango Saxon than plummy I expect.
Is the word "plummy" used by posters on this forum?
It's the usage of words on this forum which is being discussed.
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KM is rather judgmental in her book: referring to GNR/PJ as Tweedledee and Tweedledum and PF as having a 'plummy accent'. I could go on and on but why bother?
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I think we all need to show a greater degree of tolerance for posting styles and idiosyncrasies of individuals posters. I would rather cease posting than be marshaled into pandering to the whims of others.
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I think we all need to show a greater degree of tolerance for posting styles and idiosyncrasies of individuals posters. I would rather cease posting than be marshaled into pandering to the whims of others.
Why do you type the word "book" instead of book when mentioning Kate's book?
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Is the word "plummy" used by posters on this forum?
It's the usage of words on this forum which is being discussed.
The word was used by Kate McCann and a reason for it's use was given by a forum member. I disagreed with that reason so I replied. I'm not interested in forum spats about the spelling of words.
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KM is rather judgmental in her book: referring to GNR/PJ as Tweedledee and Tweedledum and PF as having a 'plummy accent'. I could go on and on but why bother?
Are you repeatedly reminded of a single reference made over twelve years ago in a moment of the greatest distress and to be criticised for it?
How do you think that will help amateurs to solve Madeleine's case?
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Why do you type the word "book" instead of book when mentioning Kate's book?
Self-amusement.
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Are you repeatedly reminded of a single reference made over twelve years ago in a moment of the greatest distress and to be criticised for it?
How do you think that will help amateurs to solve Madeleine's case?
KM was not in a moment of great distress when she wrote her b..k
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It just seems an unnecessary and insulting way to change the word book to "book" in order to make fun of a regional accent .
I'm sure the McCanns don't care but I do find it tiresome.
It's easy to criticise the posting style of others when you're only watching on from the sidelines.
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If folk get wound up by the use of "Amaral" or "book" it sounds to me as though they have low levels of tolerance. How about focusing on post content as opposed to the odd re-arranged letter?
The whole point is that your misspelling of "book" does exactly focus on the tone and context of the post.
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Neither, though what I do find amusing is people claiming to be upset about such trivia.
Little things please little minds - IMO.
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If folk get wound up by the use of "Amaral" or "book" it sounds to me as though they have low levels of tolerance. How about focusing on post content as opposed to the odd re-arranged letter?
Right so let's have a playing field and get rid of all auto-correct then that is used on words that inflame and goad. Kindly have a word with your boss and get it sorted asap.
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KM is rather judgmental in her book: referring to GNR/PJ as Tweedledee and Tweedledum and PF as having a 'plummy accent'. I could go on and on but why bother?
It seems you are determined to provoke further with every post you make, why?
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Self-amusement.
Knowing that it provokes a negative reaction is not a good look for a moderator IMO.
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It's easy to criticise the posting style of others when you're only watching on from the sidelines.
That does seem like a rebuke!.
However, even watching from the sidelines does give one the right to commentate when one is inclined to do so.
I've not criticised any of your posts, including your theory ones, but the use of the word b**k has been an irritant to me for some time and I do believe I have mentioned this previously.
You are not alone in the use of the word b**k but it's quite a wee while since it has been used.
Probably going back to the sidelines now.
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KM was not in a moment of great distress when she wrote her b..k
Kate describes events surrounding the disappearance of a dearly loved child in her book. I suppose it is a matter of opinion whether or not that could be described as a moment of great distress. I know what I think and I have had a fair inkling of your thoughts on the matter for quite some time.
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KM is rather judgmental in her book: referring to GNR/PJ as Tweedledee and Tweedledum and PF as having a 'plummy accent'. I could go on and on but why bother?
Accuracy? As opposed to sweeping statements about Liverpudlians and a supposed North/South divide.
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Little things please little minds - IMO.
Quite, but I get entertainment, whereas I doubt you can claim the same. ?{)(**
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Accuracy? As opposed to sweeping statements about Liverpudlians and a supposed North/South divide.
Do you suppose this could be part of Holly's greater plan to get us all singing from the same hymn sheet?
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Quite, but I get entertainment, whereas I doubt you can claim the same. ?{)(**
And I said... I find it quite funny
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And I said... I find it quite funny
Glad to hear it, though it was VS I was replying to, who seems annoyed by it all.
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Kate describes events surrounding the disappearance of a dearly loved child in her book. I suppose it is a matter of opinion whether or not that could be described as a moment of great distress. I know what I think and I have had a fair inkling of your thoughts on the matter for quite some time.
It is clear that Kate's descriptions include criticising those around her. Mrs Fenn has a plummy voice and her reaction to the events is seen by Kate as casual and unconcerned. A British woman 'smells of cigarettes' and is 'quite drunk'. The GNR officers were 'bewildered and out of their depth'. I can understand why she wanted understanding, sympathy and action at the time, but I have difficulty understanding why she was still complaining four years later.
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Do you suppose this could be part of Holly's greater plan to get us all singing from the same hymn sheet?
Is that her plan?
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Quite, but I get entertainment, whereas I doubt you can claim the same. ?{)(**
That makes you a really lovely person - not. IMO.
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Glad to hear it, though it was VS I was replying to, who seems annoyed by it all.
What annoys me is hypocrisy and unfairness. Either we should all be able to take the piss out of each other and rub each other up the wrong way unhindered by mods, their arbitrary rulings and word censors, or the rules should be applied fairly and squarely to all, and on every occasion.
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That makes you a really lovely person - not. IMO.
I'm renowned for my sunny disposition and good humour 8(0(*
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What annoys me is hypocrisy and unfairness. Either we should all be able to take the piss out of each other and rub each other up the wrong way unhindered by mods, their arbitrary rulings and word censors, or the rules should be applied fairly and squarely to all, and on every occasion.
There's something in this. Holly's get out of jail card was 'well don't read my posts then', which is sort of against the general ethos of a forum. You can't wrap anything up in this convenient caveat.
I'm not particularly arsed about the gentle piss taking, but the whole book thing was funny the first couple of times, but got old really quickly.
Incidentally, not all scousers say 'book', it's actually more the previous generation - and not all of them pronounce 'oo' the same consistently - and it's pretty prevalent across the north, so there you go.
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I'm renowned for my sunny disposition and good humour 8(0(*
Oh is THAT what it's called these days? Right you are then. Standards sure have slipped!
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There's something in this. Holly's get out of jail card was 'well don't read my posts then', which is sort of against the general ethos of a forum. You can't wrap anything up in this convenient caveat.
I'm not particularly arsed about the gentle piss taking, but the whole book thing was funny the first couple of times, but got old really quickly.
Incidentally, not all scousers say 'book', it's actually more the previous generation - and not all of them pronounce 'oo' the same consistently - and it's pretty prevalent across the north, so there you go.
I left the north of England (not Liverpool) in 1968, but people still comment on my accent, particularly when I say book, cook or look.
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It is clear that Kate's descriptions include criticising those around her. Mrs Fenn has a plummy voice and her reaction to the events is seen by Kate as casual and unconcerned. A British woman 'smells of cigarettes' and is 'quite drunk'. The GNR officers were 'bewildered and out of their depth'. I can understand why she wanted understanding, sympathy and action at the time, but I have difficulty understanding why she was still complaining four years later.
In my opinion she wrote it as she saw it and as she experienced it at the time. The whole truth as it happened and as she saw it happening and as recorded in the diary she kept. Unfortunately the passage of time did not make her trauma any the less ... one only has to listen to the personal accounts of the parents of other missing children whose lives and that of their families have been shaped by that one single event to know the truth of that.
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Glad to hear it, though it was VS I was replying to, who seems annoyed by it all.
I've been through the hypocrisy of the mods and told them what I think of them... So I don't take it too seriously... Two bit dentist from Wolverhampton... I cod accept the two bit dentist but accusing me of coming from Wolverhampton us taking things a, bit far
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Accents interest me because I'm trying to teach Spanish to 4 people at the moment.
I know a little about the pronunciation that varies from Spanish speaker to Spanish speaker, so my students can lisp or not, as they choose.
As to British accents, I would have thought plummy suggests Oxford, or having been brought up to talk posh, like wot my better half woz.
If this matter is any way important, do we have a background for Mrs Fenn?
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In my opinion she wrote it as she saw it and as she experienced it at the time. The whole truth as it happened and as she saw it happening and as recorded in the diary she kept. Unfortunately the passage of time did not make her trauma any the less ... one only has to listen to the personal accounts of the parents of other missing children whose lives and that of their families have been shaped by that one single event to know the truth of that.
She certainly did, although her diary didn't include the various criticisms I posted.
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It is clear that Kate's descriptions include criticising those around her. Mrs Fenn has a plummy voice and her reaction to the events is seen by Kate as casual and unconcerned. A British woman 'smells of cigarettes' and is 'quite drunk'. The GNR officers were 'bewildered and out of their depth'. I can understand why she wanted understanding, sympathy and action at the time, but I have difficulty understanding why she was still complaining four years later.
Do you understand that Kate was writing a book about her personal experiences, and that for such a book to be detailed, colourful and entertaining it needs to include observations, thoughts and feelings? Does she ONLY criticise people she comes into contact with or does she have nice words for some people too, words that you have chosen not to include in your little round up above?
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Accents interest me because I'm trying to teach Spanish to 4 people at the moment.
I know a little about the pronunciation that varies from Spanish speaker to Spanish speaker, so my students can lisp or not, as they choose.
As to British accents, I would have thought plummy suggests Oxford, or having been brought up to talk posh, like wot my better half woz.
If this matter is any way important, do we have a background for Mrs Fenn?
Not much, other than that she lived in Stratfield Saye, Berkshire before moving to Portugal. Difficult to discern where Mrs Fenn was from...
https://youtu.be/KFHbkbBh5BM?t=76 (https://youtu.be/KFHbkbBh5BM?t=76)
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html (https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html)
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Not much, other than that she lived in Stratfield Saye, Berkshire before moving to Portugal. Difficult to discern where Mrs Fenn was from...
https://youtu.be/KFHbkbBh5BM?t=76 (https://youtu.be/KFHbkbBh5BM?t=76)
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html (https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html)
Mrs Fenn has told friends she heard a noise as she watched television and found a man escaping through her bedroom window.
I think this from.Mrs Fenn is far more pertinent... A burglary involving an open window
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Mrs Fenn has told friends she heard a noise as she watched television and found a man escaping through her bedroom window.
As you do...
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Do you understand that Kate was writing a book about her personal experiences, and that for such a book to be detailed, colourful and entertaining it needs to include observations, thoughts and feelings? Does she ONLY criticise people she comes into contact with or does she have nice words for some people too, words that you have chosen not to include in your little round up above?
Don't you know the answer?
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Don't you know the answer?
Yes, but I was asking you. It was rhetorical, and I certainly don’t expect you to give the correct answer therefore revealing your clear bias on the matter.
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If folk get wound up by the use of "Amaral" or "book" it sounds to me as though they have low levels of tolerance. How about focusing on post content as opposed to the odd re-arranged letter?
Is there any need for it though?
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What annoys me is hypocrisy and unfairness. Either we should all be able to take the piss out of each other and rub each other up the wrong way unhindered by mods, their arbitrary rulings and word censors, or the rules should be applied fairly and squarely to all, and on every occasion.
I think gentle P taking of non-members is fair game. I say non-members as if we allowed members to do so it would inevitably escalate into something more than gentle P taking! To give an example I firmly believe JB is innocent but it didn't stop me posting a ditty about his plight!
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Is there any need for it though?
Lets just say its not exactly a life function but there again neither is posting on a forum!
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In my opinion she wrote it as she saw it and as she experienced it at the time. The whole truth as it happened and as she saw it happening and as recorded in the diary she kept. Unfortunately the passage of time did not make her trauma any the less ... one only has to listen to the personal accounts of the parents of other missing children whose lives and that of their families have been shaped by that one single event to know the truth of that.
KM admits in her b..k that post MM's disappearance she became less judgemental of others.
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I think gentle P taking of non-members is fair game. I say non-members as if we allowed members to do so it would inevitably escalate into something more than gentle P taking! To give an example I firmly believe JB is innocent but it didn't stop me posting a ditty about his plight!
That's fine as long as I don't get warning points, Amaral it is from now on then.
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Kate describes events surrounding the disappearance of a dearly loved child in her book. I suppose it is a matter of opinion whether or not that could be described as a moment of great distress. I know what I think and I have had a fair inkling of your thoughts on the matter for quite some time.
But she didn't need to refer to GNR/PJ as Tweedledee and Tweedledum in her b..k. She could just as easily have said they didn't fill her with confidence; she felt they were out of their depth etc.
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But she didn't need to refer to GNR/PJ as Tweedledee and Tweedledum in her b..k. She could just as easily have said they didn't fill her with confidence; she felt they were out of their depth etc.
I completely agree. Sharing her concerns is fine, name-calling isn't. There was a similar lack of respect shown to the local priest, I recall.
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I completely agree. Sharing her concerns is fine, name-calling isn't. There was a similar lack of respect shown to the local priest, I recall.
Compared to how the police referred to the mccanns they have every right... Cite for local priest... That's s pretty. Serious allegation
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Not much, other than that she lived in Stratfield Saye, Berkshire before moving to Portugal. Difficult to discern where Mrs Fenn was from...
https://youtu.be/KFHbkbBh5BM?t=76 (https://youtu.be/KFHbkbBh5BM?t=76)
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html (https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html)
Stratfield Saye looks like a well-off area. From your first link, Mrs Fenn sounds like Queen's English to me. It's interesting that Kate chose to describe her accent as plummy.
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Stratfield Saye looks like a well-off area. From your first link, Mrs Fenn sounds like Queen's English to me. It's interesting that Kate chose to describe her accent as plummy.
Sounds plummy to me... I live in a well off area... None of my neighbours talk like that
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Sounds plummy to me... I live in a well off area... None of my neighbours talk like that
How close do your neighbours live to Oxford?
And what do their accents have to do with PF? Or the label Kate chose?
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Compared to how the police referred to the mccanns they have every right... Cite for local priest... That's s pretty. Serious allegation
Did the police call them names? Cites please.
Recollections of Kenny Everett in the guise of his singing pastor, Brother Lee Love, would often spring to mind in the
coming weeks. [madeleine]
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How close do your neighbours live to Oxford?
And what do their accents have to do with PF? Or the label Kate chose?
What does the queens English have to do with Oxford... It's spoken throughout the UK.. Including in most well to do neighbourhoods... Her acccent was plummy imo... What's your problem with every single word Kate says... It doesn't have any hidden meaning as you seem to think
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Did the police call them names? Cites please.
Recollections of Kenny Everett in the guise of his singing pastor, Brother Lee Love, would often spring to mind in the
coming weeks. [madeleine]
What was that in relation to
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Did the police call them names? Cites please.
Recollections of Kenny Everett in the guise of his singing pastor, Brother Lee Love, would often spring to mind in the
coming weeks. [madeleine]
Didn't the police describe them as praying like Arabs.... And judged them to be lying about what happened
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Sounds plummy to me... I live in a well off area... None of my neighbours talk like that
A person's accent isn't necessarily related to earnings; it's more likely to be related to breeding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyyT2jmVPAk
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Didn't the police describe them as praying like Arabs.... And judged them to be lying about what happened
No they didn't, that phrase wasn't used by the police.
It's part of the job of a policeperson to work out who is telling the truth.
The Portuguese police never called the McCanns names.
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No they didn't, that phrase wasn't used by the police.
It's part of the job of a policeperson to work out who is telling the truth.
The Portuguese police never called the McCanns names.
Doesn't really make any difference.. Praying like, Arabs and lying to cover up their child's disappearance... It's the police job to gather evidence... It's not up to the police to act, as judge and jury
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Doesn't really make any difference.. Praying like, Arabs and lying to cover up their child's disappearance... It's the police job to gather evidence... It's not up to the police to act, as judge and jury
You clearly have no cites which support your claims.
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But she didn't need to refer to GNR/PJ as Tweedledee and Tweedledum in her b..k. She could just as easily have said they didn't fill her with confidence; she felt they were out of their depth etc.
She didn't need to but she did because that is what she thought of them - her book, her terms. You don't need to refer to Kate's "book" but you do it for your own amusement and to wind people up.
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Did the police call them names? Cites please.
Recollections of Kenny Everett in the guise of his singing pastor, Brother Lee Love, would often spring to mind in the
coming weeks. [madeleine]
You have taken that quote entirely out of context. Kate expressed love of the father and his 'joie de vivre' not the ridicule as you suggest.
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No they didn't, that phrase wasn't used by the police.
It's part of the job of a policeperson to work out who is telling the truth.
The Portuguese police never called the McCanns names.
Where did the Portuguese press pick up the word "swingers" from?
Who leaked the contents of Kate's diary to pejorative effect if not the police who had the only copy?
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A person's accent isn't necessarily related to earnings; it's more likely to be related to breeding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyyT2jmVPAk
and why is this so important to some posters
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You clearly have no cites which support your claims.
sorry...the portuguese were the model of empathy...absolutely brilianrt...beyond any criticism whatsoever...the mcccanns however were seeds of satan...at least thats how i think Amarol saw it...and the rest of the PJ according to him..its laughable really
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What does the queens English have to do with Oxford... It's spoken throughout the UK.. Including in most well to do neighbourhoods... Her acccent was plummy imo... What's your problem with every single word Kate says... It doesn't have any hidden meaning as you seem to think
I don't have any issue with Mrs Fenn's accent, but it would appear you feel the need to make a meal out of it.
Most people will understand Queen's English and Oxford English, just they would Glaswegian or Liverpudlian, or a host of other regional accents.
Kate's book makes it clear that Mrs Fenn offered a quicker way to call the police. That her offer was rebuked does annoy me. Madeleine appeared to be bottom of the pile of interests, for whatever reason.
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I don't have any issue with Mrs Fenn's accent, but it would appear you feel the need to make a meal out of it.
Most people will understand Queen's English and Oxford English, just they would Glaswegian or Liverpudlian, or a host of other regional accents.
Kate's book makes it clear that Mrs Fenn offered a quicker way to call the police. That her offer was rebuked does annoy me. Madeleine appeared to be bottom of the pile of interests, for whatever reason.
none of that has any relevance to kates comment of "plummy" ....i dont but you do.....As far as Gerry was concerned the police had already been called ...imo you just dont seem to be in full posession of the facts.
you posted this..
It's interesting that Kate chose to describe her accent as plummy
could you supply any reasonable explanation of why you find it interesting....
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I don't have any issue with Mrs Fenn's accent, but it would appear you feel the need to make a meal out of it.
Most people will understand Queen's English and Oxford English, just they would Glaswegian or Liverpudlian, or a host of other regional accents.
Kate's book makes it clear that Mrs Fenn offered a quicker way to call the police. That her offer was rebuked does annoy me. Madeleine appeared to be bottom of the pile of interests, for whatever reason.
could you explain how mrs fenn intended to call the police when she didnt speak portuguese....now I find her offfer quite interesting....perhaps she was going to call 999
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none of that has any relevance to kates comment of "plummy" ....i dont but you do.....As far as Gerry was concerned the police had already been called ...imo you just dont seem to be in full posession of the facts.
you posted this..
It's interesting that Kate chose to describe her accent as plummy
could you supply any reasonable explanation of why you find it interesting....
I appear to be in possession of simple facts that you are choosing to ignore or obscure.
Interesting.
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I appear to be in possession of simple facts that you are choosing to ignore or obscure.
Interesting.
what facts would those be or are you making them up...how could mrs fenn call the police when she did not speak portuguese...I doubt you have an answer to taht
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could you explain how mrs fenn intended to call the police when she didnt speak portuguese....now I find her offfer quite interesting....perhaps she was going to call 999
The emergency services number speaks English.
The GNR officers we have dealt with in Lagos police station speak English.
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The emergency services number speaks English.
The GNR officers we have dealt with in Lagos police station speak English.
do you have a cite for the emergency number speaking english. dr Amaral didnt speak english but the humble GNR do...pull the other one
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You're new to living in the Algarve and an emergency arises – what to do? Print this list of emergency numbers and information, and keep it handy for immediate help.
Note that if you call the emergency services it might be hard to explain where you live. Keep the geo-coordinates of your location handy or write it on your print-out of this list, so that you can give that to the emergency services and ensure that they can find you fast! Note that most of the responders on the emergency lines do not speak much English.
https://meravista.com/en/algarve/resources/useful-information/emergency-numbers-in-the-algarve
For instance, when dialling the standard emergency number – 112 – the operator is unlikely to speak English. The caller is reliant on their Portuguese language skills.
https://www.portugalresident.com/2014/01/31/emergency-service-for-foreign-residents/
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I don't have any issue with Mrs Fenn's accent, but it would appear you feel the need to make a meal out of it.
Most people will understand Queen's English and Oxford English, just they would Glaswegian or Liverpudlian, or a host of other regional accents.
Kate's book makes it clear that Mrs Fenn offered a quicker way to call the police. That her offer was rebuked does annoy me. Madeleine appeared to be bottom of the pile of interests, for whatever reason.
Ofcourse there is a very good reason why Kate in her book slags people off by name calling those who offered help.
The fact is Kate n Gerry far from being the upper middle class they believed they belonged, Kate gave herself a showing up by demonstrating what a common lot the McCanns and Healy's are. They can barely string a sentence together. That clucking sound with the pulled facial expression still cracks me up. And then I realise she is giving an interview about her 'abducted' daughter...
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Ofcourse there is a very good reason why Kate in her book slags people off by name calling those who offered help.
The fact is Kate n Gerry far from being the upper middle class they believed they belonged, Kate gave herself a showing up by demonstrating what a common lot the McCanns and Healy's are. They can barely string a sentence together. That clucking sound with the pulled facial expression still cracks me up. And then I realise she is giving an interview about her 'abducted' daughter...
Another poster pre occupied by class... The mccanns have never claimed to be middle or upper middle class... The only people mentioning class is you and other skeptics
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I am not British, therefore I am not sure how to interpret the innuendos of members. In my country, one would rarely ridicule someone who has suffered a loss, irrespective the circumstances and perception by the media and general public. With the advantage of hindsight, I often wonder how I would have reacted to my child’s disappearance in a foreign country. With all the media coverage, weren't the McCanns perhaps in a dual predicament of being thankful that the press is reporting on Madeleine’s disappearance and keeping it current, but also the harsh reality that she is nowhere to be found and the desperate situation of imagining the worst?
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Where did the Portuguese press pick up the word "swingers" from?
Who leaked the contents of Kate's diary to pejorative effect if not the police who had the only copy?
Retired detective Jose Barra da Costa told Portuguese TV that Kate and Gerry McCann were "swingers".
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/couple-suffer-a-bad-press-955971
The diary as printed by TNOTW didn't contain what the police said it contained. Why would they leak an innocuouse narrative when they apparently had a damning one?
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Ofcourse there is a very good reason why Kate in her book slags people off by name calling those who offered help.
The fact is Kate n Gerry far from being the upper middle class they believed they belonged, Kate gave herself a showing up by demonstrating what a common lot the McCanns and Healy's are. They can barely string a sentence together. That clucking sound with the pulled facial expression still cracks me up. And then I realise she is giving an interview about her 'abducted' daughter...
LOL at “can barely string a sentence together”. You really, really have no self awareness at all do you?
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Retired detective Jose Barra da Costa told Portuguese TV that Kate and Gerry McCann were "swingers".
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/couple-suffer-a-bad-press-955971
The diary as printed by TNOTW didn't contain what the police said it contained. Why would they leak an innocuouse narrative when they apparently had a damning one?
What exactly did they have which was more damning than the lies they leaked?
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What exactly did they have which was more damning than the lies they leaked?
Nobody ever said the diary extracts were lies, did they? Private but correct.
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Nobody ever said the diary extracts were lies, did they? Private but correct.
You said: "Why would they leak an innocuouse narrative when they apparently had a damning one?"
Which 'apparently damning' information are you referring to?
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You're new to living in the Algarve and an emergency arises – what to do? Print this list of emergency numbers and information, and keep it handy for immediate help.
Note that if you call the emergency services it might be hard to explain where you live. Keep the geo-coordinates of your location handy or write it on your print-out of this list, so that you can give that to the emergency services and ensure that they can find you fast! Note that most of the responders on the emergency lines do not speak much English.
https://meravista.com/en/algarve/resources/useful-information/emergency-numbers-in-the-algarve
For instance, when dialling the standard emergency number – 112 – the operator is unlikely to speak English. The caller is reliant on their Portuguese language skills.
https://www.portugalresident.com/2014/01/31/emergency-service-for-foreign-residents/
Oh dear. If your inormation is coming from an iMergencies ad, it's no wonder you are getting it wrong.
We have used 112 twice, and on both occasions the operator spoke English. That could be because 8 years of English is mandatory in Portugal. More likely in a land of frequent English speakers, an operator who spoke only English would be as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Though it is not explicitly stated in the files, I cannot see a receptionist at the OC getting a job unless he spoke English.
Nurses etc have to take further English, presumably to cover medical terminology.
Emergency ambulances always carry at least one person who can speak good English. iMergencies is a waste of money if you hope they will answer on-the-spot questions in Portuguese for you.
Of the 3 or 4 occasions we have been in contact withe the GNR and PSP here, the exchange has always been in English.
Not that it matters, the Great Gonçalo was not part of any emergency response team. And I suspect he knows more English than he claims.
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Oh dear. If your inormation is coming from an iMergencies ad, it's no wonder you are getting it wrong.
We have used 112 twice, and on both occasions the operator spoke English. That could be because 8 years of English is mandatory in Portugal. More likely in a land of frequent English speakers, an operator who spoke only English would be as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Though it is not explicitly stated in the files, I cannot see a receptionist at the OC getting a job unless he spoke English.
Nurses etc have to take further English, presumably to cover medical terminology.
Emergency ambulances always carry at least one person who can speak good English. iMergencies is a waste of money if you hope they will answer on-the-spot questions in Portuguese for you.
Of the 3 or 4 occasions we have been in contact withe the GNR and PSP here, the exchange has always been in English.
Not that it matters, the Great Gonçalo was not part of any emergency response team. And I suspect he knows more English than he claims.
I prefer to believe the Portugal Resident newspaper rather than an anonymous internet poster who is biased .
You accuse others of bias when you exercise it yourself. Everything you post Re the McCanns is coloured by the fact that you wanted to get involved in the investigation and they ignored your offer of help.... Quite the right thing to do afaiac
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Ofcourse there is a very good reason why Kate in her book slags people off by name calling those who offered help.
The fact is Kate n Gerry far from being the upper middle class they believed they belonged, Kate gave herself a showing up by demonstrating what a common lot the McCanns and Healy's are. They can barely string a sentence together. That clucking sound with the pulled facial expression still cracks me up. And then I realise she is giving an interview about her 'abducted' daughter...
The McCann's were both Drs at the time Madeleine disappeared, so they were upper middle class, sorry if that upsets you. You laugh at very strange things MTI, I just listened to that interview and thought Kate betrayed a very sad woman who had lost her child. What if she had just clicked her fingers instead? Would that have been ok for you?
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Not much, other than that she lived in Stratfield Saye, Berkshire before moving to Portugal. Difficult to discern where Mrs Fenn was from...
https://youtu.be/KFHbkbBh5BM?t=76 (https://youtu.be/KFHbkbBh5BM?t=76)
https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html (https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html)
From her wit stat it appears PF hails from Newmarket.
Who is Frederick Charles Webb e de Hida Youds? He is named under 'Filicao' which translated literally means 'membership'? Father, maybe? I'm unsure about the 'e de' part of the surname? Hida is apparently a Japanese surname and Youds a rare English surname with origins in the Wirral.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2412.jpg
In the niece's wit stat she refers to her uncle (PF's late husband I assume) as hailing from Oz.
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The McCann's were both Drs at the time Madeleine disappeared, so they were upper middle class, sorry if that upsets you. You laugh at very strange things MTI, I just listened to that interview and thought Kate betrayed a very sad woman who had lost her child. What if she had just clicked her fingers instead? Would that have been ok for you?
Would the fact the McCanns are qualified medi doctors make them upper middle class? I don't think it would. If I had to describe them in such terms I would place them in socioeconomic group A based on education, income and professional status and in general terms describe them as 'professionals'. Afaik they both hail from working class Irish Catholic families and attended state schools.
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Would the fact the McCanns are qualified medi doctors make them upper middle class? I don't think it would. If I had to describe them in such terms I would place them in socioeconomic group A based on education, income and professional status and in general terms describe them as 'professionals'. Afaik they both hail from working class Irish Catholic families and attended state schools.
&%%6 Didn't they do well!!
What shining examples of and an absolute credit to the Catholic education system.
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Would the fact the McCanns are qualified medi doctors make them upper middle class? I don't think it would. If I had to describe them in such terms I would place them in socioeconomic group A based on education, income and professional status and in general terms describe them as 'professionals'. Afaik they both hail from working class Irish Catholic families and attended state schools.
Ther is no real dedinition of middle class that is accepted as a fact and it really is quite pointless to try and pigeonhole people. I have never heard the Mccanns describe themselves as middle class and it seems only sceptics have tried to label them....just another mccann bashing exercise.
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Ther is no real dedinition of middle class that is accepted as a fact and it really is quite pointless to try and pigeonhole people. I have never heard the Mccanns describe themselves as middle class and it seems only sceptics have tried to label them....just another mccann bashing exercise.
I agree the class categories are outdated now but the government does actually use socioeconomic data for various purposes. The McCanns would undoubtedly feature in socio-economic group A by virtue of their education (uni), income and professional status.
The McCann children would be described as coming from a middle class background.
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&%%6 Didn't they do well!!
What shining examples of and an absolute credit to the Catholic education system.
I'm not in favour of faith schools but I guess it did produce a good footballer by way of Wayne Rooney 8)--))
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From her wit stat it appears PF hails from Newmarket.
Who is Frederick Charles Webb e de Hida Youds? He is named under 'Filicao' which translated literally means 'membership'? Father, maybe? I'm unsure about the 'e de' part of the surname? Hida is apparently a Japanese surname and Youds a rare English surname with origins in the Wirral.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2412.jpg
In the niece's wit stat she refers to her uncle (PF's late husband I assume) as hailing from Oz.
I hope I'm not going to be written off as some obsessive weirdo for looking up PF in the public records but from my search I have found the following:
Pamela A Tombs
Year Born: 1929
Place of Birth: Newmarket, Cambridgeshire
The summaries do not always tie up with the full certificates which might explain why an 'A' appears and not an 'I' or Isobel. On the other hand it might mean that the above entry is unrelated to PF but it is the only entry for a Pamela born in Newmarket during 1929 as per the info in the wit stat.
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I can't find any marriage records for a Pamela Tombs.
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i do criticise holly but i must say she accepts it...does not delete posts and for that she deserves respect
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Would the fact the McCanns are qualified medi doctors make them upper middle class? I don't think it would. If I had to describe them in such terms I would place them in socioeconomic group A based on education, income and professional status and in general terms describe them as 'professionals'. Afaik they both hail from working class Irish Catholic families and attended state schools.
Upper middle class people are those born into a specific type of family, speaking Received Pronounciation and privately educated. People such as Boris Johnson and David Cameron are upper middle class.
Middle class people are often those who have changed the class they were born into by doing well in school, going to University and entering well-paid careers. People such as Michael Parkinson and the McCanns are middle class.
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I agree the class categories are outdated now but the government does actually use socioeconomic data for various purposes. The McCanns would undoubtedly feature in socio-economic group A by virtue of their education (uni), income and professional status.
The McCann children would be described as coming from a middle class background.
Yes the class categories are outdated, but it all comes down to money IMO
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Upper middle class people are those born into a specific type of family, speaking Received Pronounciation and privately educated. People such as Boris Johnson and David Cameron are upper middle class.
Middle class people are often those who have changed the class they were born into by doing well in school, going to University and entering well-paid careers. People such as Michael Parkinson and the McCanns are middle class.
Well historically you had the upper class which would be described as titled eg royalty and the landed gentry. Upper middle class which I would describe as the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg, BoJo, DC etc. Middle class those who work in the professions and are defined by their professional status in that they may have been born to working class families and attended state schools eg McCanns. Working class and underclass for the rest 8)><(
But you can see the above doesn't really work now. Eg Kate Middleton and Megan Markle, Sir Philip Green, the Beckhams and Rooneys of this world.
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I'm not in favour of faith schools but I guess it did produce a good footballer by way of Wayne Rooney 8)--))
Ah yes, the one who'd rather play away than at home.
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From her wit stat it appears PF hails from Newmarket.
Who is Frederick Charles Webb e de Hida Youds? He is named under 'Filicao' which translated literally means 'membership'? Father, maybe? I'm unsure about the 'e de' part of the surname? Hida is apparently a Japanese surname and Youds a rare English surname with origins in the Wirral.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2412.jpg (https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2412.jpg)
In the niece's wit stat she refers to her uncle (PF's late husband I assume) as hailing from Oz.
Is "e de" not Portuguese for "and from" or "and of"? Linguist SIL will know.
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Ah yes, the one who'd rather play away than at home.
Don't you get more points for an away win ?
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Don't you get more points for an away win ?
Coleen follows the money know matter how soiled.
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Is "e de" not Portuguese for "and from" or "and of"? Linguist SIL will know.
They are her parents.
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They are her parents.
I was thinking it was one long name! So you think its Frederick Charles Webb and Hida Youds? That would make more sense. Maybe there's a 'l' missing in Hida. I will endevour to clarify.
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From her wit stat it appears PF hails from Newmarket.
Who is Frederick Charles Webb e de Hida Youds? He is named under 'Filicao' which translated literally means 'membership'? Father, maybe? I'm unsure about the 'e de' part of the surname? Hida is apparently a Japanese surname and Youds a rare English surname with origins in the Wirral.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2412.jpg
In the niece's wit stat she refers to her uncle (PF's late husband I assume) as hailing from Oz.
The correct name is Hilda Youds, not Hida and she was born in Gateshead in 1899. She married Webb in Gateshead, in 1923. There are several "Youds" listed in Gateshead in the early part of the last century.
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Copy of PF birth & marriage recorded..
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Copy of PF birth & marriage recorded..
Rabbit hole.
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Rabbit hole.
Pardon?
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Pardon?
You don't even know you're in it.
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Copy of PF birth & marriage recorded..
Nice one Misty 8((()*/
Thanks for all the info.
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You don't even know you're in it.
No idea what you're referring to?
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Don't you get more points for an away win ?
Yes in some of the competitions but lose points for an own goal 8(0(*
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Nice one Misty 8((()*/
Thanks for all the info.
How does this advance anything? Were you doubting the woman existed ?
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How does this advance anything? Were you doubting the woman existed ?
I'm not sure it does advance anything directly? No I wasn't doubting she existed but its always nice to see a clear audit trail and sometimes you can glean further info/pick up other little clues.
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Misty I've been endeavoring to do the same for PF's niece, Carole Anne Tranmer, along with the husband Christopher Tranmer.
According to CAT's police rog April 2008 her dob is 1st May 1948 and at the time of her rog she had been married for 20 years. She also claims to have had a twin brother who passed away in 2003.
Another forum (not a patch on this one ?>)()<) claim that Christopher Tranmer is a medi doc who in 2010 was working for Medecins Sans Frontieres but I don't believe they are one and the same?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kppjWOaGTWo
I can only find one appropriate by birth record for Christopher Tranmer:
- Christopher B Tranmer
- Born 1945
- Place of Birth: Hampshire
The Christopher Tranmer who at one time worked for MSF is on the electoral roll at Woodford Green, Essex and the Christopher Tranmer connected to PF/CAT is on the electoral roll at Slough, Berkshire.
https://www.192.com/people/search/
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I'm not sure it does advance anything directly? No I wasn't doubting she existed but its always nice to see a clear audit trail and sometimes you can glean further info/pick up other little clues.
What like? It looks like some totally bizarre crusade to determine whether she qualified as 'plummy'.
As I said, rabbit hole.
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Misty I've been endeavoring to do the same for PF's niece, Carole Anne Tranmer, along with the husband Christopher Tranmer.
According to CAT's police rog April 2008 her dob is 1st May 1948 and at the time of her rog she had been married for 20 years. She also claims to have had a twin brother who passed away in 2003.
Another forum (not a patch on this one ?>)()<) claim that Christopher Tranmer is a medi doc who in 2010 was working for Medecins Sans Frontieres but I don't believe they are one and the same?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kppjWOaGTWo
I can only find one appropriate by birth record for Christopher Tranmer:
- Christopher B Tranmer
- Born 1945
- Place of Birth: Hampshire
The Christopher Tranmer who at one time worked for MSF is on the electoral roll at Woodford Green, Essex and the Christopher Tranmer connected to PF/CAT is on the electoral roll at Slough, Berkshire.
https://www.192.com/people/search/
The Tranmers did move to Slough - it's in Carole's statement. She had some dealings with art iirc. It may be that Christopher was born abroad and the pair married abroad, hence no birth/marriage record.
There are quite a few Tranmers on the Algarve e.g. John Tranmer property agent & connections to Luz can be seen on social media.
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The Tranmers did move to Slough - it's in Carole's statement. She had some dealings with art iirc. It may be that Christopher was born abroad and the pair married abroad, hence no birth/marriage record.
There are quite a few Tranmers on the Algarve e.g. John Tranmer property agent & connections to Luz can be seen on social media.
Afaik all British citizens appear in BMD records regardless of where in the world the event takes place. They should appear in overseas section?
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The Tranmers did move to Slough - it's in Carole's statement. She had some dealings with art iirc. It may be that Christopher was born abroad and the pair married abroad, hence no birth/marriage record.
There are quite a few Tranmers on the Algarve e.g. John Tranmer property agent & connections to Luz can be seen on social media.
Yes they appear on the electoral at an address in Slough at certain times.
Her wit stat states she run an antique business for 4 years.
I think our man is a Christopher Tranmer as per CAT's wit stat and the electoral roll.
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But she didn't need to refer to GNR/PJ as Tweedledee and Tweedledum in her b..k. She could just as easily have said they didn't fill her with confidence; she felt they were out of their depth etc.
Those derogatory references to the two Portuguese police officers gained Kate McCann no friends in Portugal or elsewhere for that matter, it was so unnecessary.
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For the benefit of newer members. As a result of complaints the words 'b e u k', 'b e w k' and 'A m 0 r a l' have been added to the censor library. We previously had this issue and it was agreed then not to use such terms as some posters found them tasteless and not conducive to the spirit which we like to maintain here. TY
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Those derogatory references to the two Portuguese police officers gained Kate McCann no friends in Portugal or elsewhere for that matter, it was so unnecessary.
I doubt that many are as concerned as you think... I don't think it's, any big deal
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I doubt that many are as concerned as you think... I don't think it's, any big deal
Rather ironic imo. You don't believe the Portuguese and/or others were offended by KM referring to Portuguese investigating officials as Tweedledee/Tweedledum in her best-selling bwek and yet some here were so offended by my reference to KM's bwek, pronounced Liverpudlian style, that they took it upon themselves to make a complaint to John. Could those whose sensibilities were so affected not just send me a pm appealing to my better side? The phrase big girls blouses springs to mind.
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Rather ironic imo. You don't believe the Portuguese and/or others were offended by KM referring to Portuguese investigating officials as Tweedledee/Tweedledum in her best-selling bwek and yet some here were so offended by my reference to KM's bwek, pronounced Liverpudlian style, that they took it upon themselves to make a complaint to John. Could those whose sensibilities were so affected not just send me a pm appealing to my better side? The phrase big girls blouses springs to mind.
How many Portuguese do you think are, aware of it....aren't you being a bit of a big girls blouse... Should I now refer to the coordinator as anaral... All this faux outrage is a bit childish afaiac... Has your suspect been arrested yet or are the met still gathering evidence
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Rather ironic imo. You don't believe the Portuguese and/or others were offended by KM referring to Portuguese investigating officials as Tweedledee/Tweedledum in her best-selling bwek and yet some here were so offended by my reference to KM's bwek, pronounced Liverpudlian style, that they took it upon themselves to make a complaint to John. Could those whose sensibilities were so affected not just send me a pm appealing to my better side? The phrase big girls blouses springs to mind.
I didn’t complain to John, I complained to you because I think, as a mod, you should be above piss-taking. How about it?
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Rather ironic imo. You don't believe the Portuguese and/or others were offended by KM referring to Portuguese investigating officials as Tweedledee/Tweedledum in her best-selling bwek and yet some here were so offended by my reference to KM's bwek, pronounced Liverpudlian style, that they took it upon themselves to make a complaint to John. Could those whose sensibilities were so affected not just send me a pm appealing to my better side? The phrase big girls blouses springs to mind.
I don't think anyone complained to John but more like John saw your behaviour as goading
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10983.msg558627#msg558627
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I don't think anyone complained to John but more like John saw your behaviour as goading
Are you implying John is a liar?
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Are you implying John is a liar?
There is no grounds to accuse me of that... Read the post by john carefully
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Holly is to be congratulated for her efforts in keeping discussion points going at a time when there is absolutely nothing coming out from the current investigation into Madeleine's case.
In many cases though, I don't think there should be quite so much credibility given to notions which have been prevalent on the internet for some time and may or may never have been worth bothering about in the first instance.
I think the best chance of solving Madeleine's case using non professional input might have been for the professionals to pay more attention to prevalent local conditions and to give more credibility to avenues suggested which were not in line with police thinking.
For example ... Jane Tanner's sighting was not considered credible and until Mr Smith had his revelation moment many months after the event while watching the news, neither was his.
I wonder what other information given by non professionals might have been relevant and if acted on at the time might have changed the course of the investigation and solved what happened to Madeleine.
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Holly is to be congratulated for her efforts in keeping discussion points going at a time when there is absolutely nothing coming out from the current investigation into Madeleine's case.
In many cases though, I don't think there should be quite so much credibility given to notions which have been prevalent on the internet for some time and may or may never have been worth bothering about in the first instance.
I think the best chance of solving Madeleine's case using non professional input might have been for the professionals to pay more attention to prevalent local conditions and to give more credibility to avenues suggested which were not in line with police thinking.
For example ... Jane Tanner's sighting was not considered credible and until Mr Smith had his revelation moment many months after the event while watching the news, neither was his.
I wonder what other information given by non professionals might have been relevant and if acted on at the time might have changed the course of the investigation and solved what happened to Madeleine.
I assume your criticisms are aimed at the PJ? According to the PJ files there was a lot of evidence in the possession of the UK police which didn't reach the PJ immediately. Perhaps the PJ would have performed better if they'd had all the evidence, not just that which they had collected themselves.
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I assume your criticisms are aimed at the PJ? According to the PJ files there was a lot of evidence in the possession of the UK police which didn't reach the PJ immediately. Perhaps the PJ would have performed better if they'd had all the evidence, not just that which they had collected themselves.
There's an interesting role-play on this in which one gets to be the SIO of this case. Acting within the legal and logistical realities, just how well did the PJ do?
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There's an interesting role-play on this in which one gets to be the SIO of this case. Acting within the legal and logistical realities, just how well did the PJ do?
I think they did very well in terms of identifying and interviewing everyone who worked at the Ocean Club. It's down to their hard work that we know where every worker says they were on the evening of 3rd May. By contrast we know very little about the whereabouts of most of the holidaymakers that evening.
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There's an interesting role-play on this in which one gets to be the SIO of this case. Acting within the legal and logistical realities, just how well did the PJ do?
Considering they misunderstood the dog alerts and the dna. Not too well
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For the benefit of newer members. As a result of complaints the words 'b e u k', 'b e w k' and 'A m 0 r a l' have been added to the censor library. We previously had this issue and it was agreed then not to use such terms as some posters found them tasteless and not conducive to the spirit which we like to maintain here. TY
John says there had been complaints... We all saw complaints on the board. He doesn't say anyone complained to him
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John says there had been complaints... We all saw complaints on the board. He doesn't say anyone complained to him
John needs to add “bwek” to the list.
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On the other hand John could stop pandering to the playground just forget the whole silly censorship thing.
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On the other hand John could stop pandering to the playground just forget the whole silly censorship thing.
or he could ask posters to post in more adult fashion
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On the other hand John could stop pandering to the playground just forget the whole silly censorship thing.
What is childish is continuing to goad and take the piss, when you have been asked politely not to do so, particularly when you’re a moderator.
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I assume your criticisms are aimed at the PJ? According to the PJ files there was a lot of evidence in the possession of the UK police which didn't reach the PJ immediately. Perhaps the PJ would have performed better if they'd had all the evidence, not just that which they had collected themselves.
Madeleine's disappearance happened on Portuguese soil and outwith the jurisdiction of UK police.
A cite is required for "a lot of evidence was in the possession of UK police which did not immediately reach the PJ".
Thank you
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John needs to add “bwek” to the list.
What's a bwek? Is it related to bweksit?
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book, bew*, *ewk, b*wk, etc etc. Are they to be on the forbidden list as well?
Where does it all end ?
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Has any DNA/forensics been obtained from the bed at the window in the children’s bedroom?
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book, bew*, *ewk, b*wk, etc etc. Are they to be on the forbidden list as well?
Where does it all end ?
Could we get rid of all the berks... That might help
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Who would decide ?
One person's berk is another person's super-hero.
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Who would decide ?
One person's berk is another person's super-hero.
That's very apparrant
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Madeleine's disappearance happened on Portuguese soil and outwith the jurisdiction of UK police.
A cite is required for "a lot of evidence was in the possession of UK police which did not immediately reach the PJ".
Thank you
Madeleine's disappearance was indeed in Portugal, but the UK police insinuated themselves into the investigation and took on the task of gathering information from the returning holidaymakers.
The UK police were given the contact details of 550 people who had been in Luz at the time. There seems to have been no attempt to interview them all.
There seems to have been no attempt to forward the statements of the few who did give information;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GAIL_COOPER.htm
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What's a bwek? Is it related to bweksit?
It’s Holly’s hugely amusing new way of spelling book.
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Has any DNA/forensics been obtained from the bed at the window in the children’s bedroom?
There was a suspected semen sample which became not semen.
The voluntary samples were also compared with 'crime stain 1', a DNA profile obtained by Portuguese scientists using their DNA profile system. The profile was recovered from suspected semen on a blanket in the apartment 5.
I conclude further that, the DNA profiles obtained from the 'crime stain 1' and 286A/2007/CRL9A & B coincide with Charlie Gordon (bar code 51156964). I believe that Charlie Gordon was born on 29 January 2005, and if this is the case, in my opinion, the DNA profile obtained in 'crime stain 1' is not the result of semen found on the blanket.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
I wonder if that boy slept in the bed? He was only a month older than the McCann twins.
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Madeleine's disappearance was indeed in Portugal, but the UK police insinuated themselves into the investigation and took on the task of gathering information from the returning holidaymakers.
The UK police were given the contact details of 550 people who had been in Luz at the time. There seems to have been no attempt to interview them all.
There seems to have been no attempt to forward the statements of the few who did give information;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAUL_GORDON.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GAIL_COOPER.htm
You really do make the attempt to muddy the waters by stating your opinion quite firmly as fact.
I found your use of “insinuate” … : to introduce (someone, such as oneself) by stealthy, smooth, or artful means) with regard to the British police illuminating. According to his book and various other verging on the paranoid expressions of his suspicions, seems to sit exceedingly well with Amaral’s mindset as recorded in his book and noted elsewhere.
Snip
Amaral was suspicious of the motives of the British police officers who arrived in Luz on May 7. He ordered a 'shadow' on the senior British officer in Luz. 'I want to know what they are doing,' he told his subordinate. 'You will escort them day and night.'
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/a-copper-without-shame-maddies-top-detective-blames-everyone-but-himself-6836324.html
I find the cites you have provided extraordinary: as explained in one of them by police detective Ivor Messiah to Carol Tranmer the interviews (and that is all of those you have linked to) are as a result of requests from the Portuguese police (Rebelo investigation) to clarify statements already made (Amaral investigation).
The cites therefore do not support your allegation because they could not be asking for clarification regarding documents they did not already have in their possession … therefore you are wrong in alleging that information was not passed on when it patently had been.
Snip
DC1485'The reason for our discussion today, Carole, has to do with the Portuguese investigation regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCANN on Thursday the 3rd of May of 2007. Essentially, the Portuguese police, or the PJ as they are also known, are leading this investigation and have asked us, the Leicestershire police--because the McCANN family are also from Leicestershire--to be the their link in England to the investigation. Do you understand what we have to do'
CT'Mmm, mmm yes.
DC1485'The reason for speaking to you is obviously the same reason we are speaking to the other people who were in Portugal and who know the McCann family. They are all being questioned and their statements recorded on video, as are you. You are not in the minority'everyone's testimony has proceeded in the same way.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And as I have already mentioned, the reason for this meeting is to produce an interview so that the Portuguese authorities can have all the statements that are needed in order to proceed with the investigation and/or conclude the enquiry. This is their decision and we are merely collaborating with them.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'They only want us to speak with you so as to elaborate questions or to our interview technique. Short of this, they are trying to see if there is any existing piece of information that may surface.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
The result of this process was a whole raft of rogatory interviews to enable the Portuguese investigation to clarify matters at their end.
I reiterate that the four individuals whose names you used could only have been requested if already known to the Portuguese.
Your following post makes reference to a forensic sample recovered in apartment 5 from an individual with the surname Gordon ... presumably the young son of one of the individuals whose details you allege the British police didn't pass on. I find that if your post is subterfuge rather than error it is indeed quite disturbing and I note it does seem to happen quite often.
Dates of the first interviews from your links ... - 16/05/2007 Katherina Gaspar
- 06/05/2007 Paul Gordon
- the 08/05/2007 Carol Tranmer
- 21/05/2007 Gail Cooper
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You really do make the attempt to muddy the waters by stating your opinion quite firmly as fact.
I found your use of “insinuate” … : to introduce (someone, such as oneself) by stealthy, smooth, or artful means) with regard to the British police illuminating. According to his book and various other verging on the paranoid expressions of his suspicions, seems to sit exceedingly well with Amaral’s mindset as recorded in his book and noted elsewhere.
Snip
Amaral was suspicious of the motives of the British police officers who arrived in Luz on May 7. He ordered a 'shadow' on the senior British officer in Luz. 'I want to know what they are doing,' he told his subordinate. 'You will escort them day and night.'
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/a-copper-without-shame-maddies-top-detective-blames-everyone-but-himself-6836324.html
I find the cites you have provided extraordinary: as explained in one of them by police detective Ivor Messiah to Carol Tranmer the interviews (and that is all of those you have linked to) are as a result of requests from the Portuguese police (Rebelo investigation) to clarify statements already made (Amaral investigation).
The cites therefore do not support your allegation because they could not be asking for clarification regarding documents they did not already have in their possession … therefore you are wrong in alleging that information was not passed on when it patently had been.
Snip
DC1485'The reason for our discussion today, Carole, has to do with the Portuguese investigation regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCANN on Thursday the 3rd of May of 2007. Essentially, the Portuguese police, or the PJ as they are also known, are leading this investigation and have asked us, the Leicestershire police--because the McCANN family are also from Leicestershire--to be the their link in England to the investigation. Do you understand what we have to do'
CT'Mmm, mmm yes.
DC1485'The reason for speaking to you is obviously the same reason we are speaking to the other people who were in Portugal and who know the McCann family. They are all being questioned and their statements recorded on video, as are you. You are not in the minority'everyone's testimony has proceeded in the same way.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And as I have already mentioned, the reason for this meeting is to produce an interview so that the Portuguese authorities can have all the statements that are needed in order to proceed with the investigation and/or conclude the enquiry. This is their decision and we are merely collaborating with them.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'They only want us to speak with you so as to elaborate questions or to our interview technique. Short of this, they are trying to see if there is any existing piece of information that may surface.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
The result of this process was a whole raft of rogatory interviews to enable the Portuguese investigation to clarify matters at their end.
I reiterate that the four individuals whose names you used could only have been requested if already known to the Portuguese.
Your following post makes reference to a forensic sample recovered in apartment 5 from an individual with the surname Gordon ... presumably the young son of one of the individuals whose details you allege the British police didn't pass on. I find that if your post is subterfuge rather than error it is indeed quite disturbing and I note it does seem to happen quite often.
Dates of the first interviews from your links ... - 16/05/2007 Katherina Gaspar
- 06/05/2007 Paul Gordon
- the 08/05/2007 Carol Tranmer
- 21/05/2007 Gail Cooper
Paul Gordon was included in the rogatory requests because he was a previous occupant of 5A. The questions suggest the PJ didn't know he had seen a charity collector. That suggests they hadn't received his first statement, as does the fact that it was included with his rogatory interview. The PJ didn't ask for his son to give a DNA sample.
VII - Interview to the adult users of the apartment (G5A) from which MADELEINE MCCANN went missing, who stayed there before 28th April (the date on which the MCCANNs arrived there). They should be subject to a buccal swab and hair sample collection (only the below UNDERLINED individuals :
* The FAWKES family, namely SIMON ANDREW , CLAIRE LOUISE AND daughter RUXX ELXXXXXXX, 62 EvXXXXXX LaXX, WOXXXXXXX, BEXXXXXXX, RGXX 4XX, UK.
* CARLOS DAMBROSIO and JUNE HUGHES, 53x MoXXXXXX DRXXX, Glasgow, GXX 1XX, UK.
* The GORDON family, namely PAUL ANTHONY, SALEIGH LOUISE and two children - CHXXXXX HAXXXXXX and JAXXXXX ISXXXX - 2 DaXXXXXXX, WIXXXXX, Hants, PXXX 6XX, UK.
The aforementioned persons should be asked the following questions :
* Did any incident happen during your stay at the apartment, i.e. was anyone injured or did anyone die ?
* Did you ever suffer theft or did any of your belongings disappear from the apartment ?
* Did you ever detect the presence of anyone strange inside or around your apartment ?
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Paul Gordon was included in the rogatory requests because he was a previous occupant of 5A. The questions suggest the PJ didn't know he had seen a charity collector. That suggests they hadn't received his first statement, as does the fact that it was included with his rogatory interview. The PJ didn't ask for his son to give a DNA sample.
VII - Interview to the adult users of the apartment (G5A) from which MADELEINE MCCANN went missing, who stayed there before 28th April (the date on which the MCCANNs arrived there). They should be subject to a buccal swab and hair sample collection (only the below UNDERLINED individuals :
* The FAWKES family, namely SIMON ANDREW , CLAIRE LOUISE AND daughter RUXX ELXXXXXXX, 62 EvXXXXXX LaXX, WOXXXXXXX, BEXXXXXXX, RGXX 4XX, UK.
* CARLOS DAMBROSIO and JUNE HUGHES, 53x MoXXXXXX DRXXX, Glasgow, GXX 1XX, UK.
* The GORDON family, namely PAUL ANTHONY, SALEIGH LOUISE and two children - CHXXXXX HAXXXXXX and JAXXXXX ISXXXX - 2 DaXXXXXXX, WIXXXXX, Hants, PXXX 6XX, UK.
The aforementioned persons should be asked the following questions :
* Did any incident happen during your stay at the apartment, i.e. was anyone injured or did anyone die ?
* Did you ever suffer theft or did any of your belongings disappear from the apartment ?
* Did you ever detect the presence of anyone strange inside or around your apartment ?
If the PJ didn't request a DNA sample from the child how on earth was it possible to eliminate the stain he left behind on the bed cover as his which allowed it to be eliminated as being of interest to the enquiry.
I rather get the impression that you are labouring under the misapprehension that the files uploaded to the internet are all the files that were available.
In thinking that I believe that you are really misguided.
We know there was a bit of consternation when the British police discovered the intention to release confidential witness statements from an unsolved case to interested parties in accordance with Portuguese law and in the main managed to prevent this happening meaning that statements made remained confidential.
Which may lead non professional investigators to presume that the Brits were in dereliction of their duty when in effect they were ensuring the probity of the case for the future.
I cringe when I read here and elsewhere on the internet what has been made of Carol Tranmer's confidentiality as one of the statements which unfortunately has slipped through the net.
That is a prime example of why non professional investigators who think they know it all but who actually know nothing will never in my opinion have a clue about how to conduct any case let alone Madeleine's let alone bring one even close to being solved.
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If the PJ didn't request a DNA sample from the child how on earth was it possible to eliminate the stain he left behind on the bed cover as his which allowed it to be eliminated as being of interest to the enquiry.
I rather get the impression that you are labouring under the misapprehension that the files uploaded to the internet are all the files that were available.
In thinking that I believe that you are really misguided.
We know there was a bit of consternation when the British police discovered the intention to release confidential witness statements from an unsolved case to interested parties in accordance with Portuguese law and in the main managed to prevent this happening meaning that statements made remained confidential.
Which may lead non professional investigators to presume that the Brits were in dereliction of their duty when in effect they were ensuring the probity of the case for the future.
I cringe when I read here and elsewhere on the internet what has been made of Carol Tranmer's confidentiality as one of the statements which unfortunately has slipped through the net.
That is a prime example of why non professional investigators who think they know it all but who actually know nothing will never in my opinion have a clue about how to conduct any case let alone Madeleine's let alone bring one even close to being solved.
The FSS had the Gordon child's DNA because they matched it to the stain on the bedspread under the window in the front bedroom and to samples 9A & B found on the wall behind the couch in the Living Room.
They reached those conclusions before 22nd May 2008, when they replied to their rogatory questions. Paul Gordon supplied his rog. statement on 24th April. The PJ asked for a DNA sample from him, but not his son.
Lawyers acting for the UK police requested certain information was withdrawn from the PJ files. Whether that included freely given witness statements or not it doesn't say.
A. Material relating to condemned and suspected sex offenders
B. Intelligence Reports
C. Crimestoppers (Crime Combating Unit)
D. Communication between Police Forces
E. Orientation of the NPIA
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LAWYERS_UK_POLICE.htm
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The FSS had the Gordon child's DNA because they matched it to the stain on the bedspread under the window in the front bedroom and to samples 9A & B found on the wall behind the couch in the Living Room.
They reached those conclusions before 22nd May 2008, when they replied to their rogatory questions. Paul Gordon supplied his rog. statement on 24th April. The PJ asked for a DNA sample from him, but not his son.
Lawyers acting for the UK police requested certain information was withdrawn from the PJ files. Whether that included freely given witness statements or not it doesn't say.
A. Material relating to condemned and suspected sex offenders
B. Intelligence Reports
C. Crimestoppers (Crime Combating Unit)
D. Communication between Police Forces
E. Orientation of the NPIA
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LAWYERS_UK_POLICE.htm
You post as if the FSS had a database of every British child. They do not. To make a match they had to have parental permission to swab the child’s cheek to gather cells.
The resulting match had its very own identification code which is recorded in the files. (bar code 51156964) https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
Paulo Rebelo signed the order requesting the collection of DNA samples from previous holidaymakers who had stayed in apartment 5A. Bearing in mind the Samples had been collected by the Portuguese forensic team in the first instance after Madeleine’s disappearance that is quite a gap.
I think you are going to have to accept that there is a tremendous amount of information out there which about which you simply know nothing.
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You post as if the FSS had a database of every British child. They do not. To make a match they had to have parental permission to swab the child’s cheek to gather cells.
The resulting match had its very own identification code which is recorded in the files. (bar code 51156964) https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
Paulo Rebelo signed the order requesting the collection of DNA samples from previous holidaymakers who had stayed in apartment 5A. Bearing in mind the Samples had been collected by the Portuguese forensic team in the first instance after Madeleine’s disappearance that is quite a gap.
I think you are going to have to accept that there is a tremendous amount of information out there which about which you simply know nothing.
There is indeed a tremendous amount of information about which I know nothing; it's in the hands of the UK police. It probably includes details of why and when DNA was collected from the Gordon child-something which the PJ didn't request or authorise.
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There is indeed a tremendous amount of information about which I know nothing; it's in the hands of the UK police. It probably includes details of why and when DNA was collected from the Gordon child-something which the PJ didn't request or authorise.
[/b]
What makes you think that?
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[/b]
What makes you think that?
Post #875 tells which people the PJ wanted DNA collected from, and it didn't include the Gordon children. It was just the father they wanted DNA from.
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Post #875 tells which people the PJ wanted DNA collected from, and it didn't include the Gordon children. It was just the father they wanted DNA from.
Well there could be follow-up requests for Mr Gordon's DNA would be a partial match to the sample. This would suggest the need to test the kids as well.
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How many Portuguese do you think are, aware of it....aren't you being a bit of a big girls blouse... Should I now refer to the coordinator as anaral... All this faux outrage is a bit childish afaiac... Has your suspect been arrested yet or are the met still gathering evidence
How many Portuguese are aware of what? On the assumption you are referring to KM's comments re Tweedeldee and Tweedledum I guess anyone who read her best-selling b..k. But such comments were not restricted to GNR/PJ.
I personally would not object to anyone here referring to GA in unflattering terms and/or making a wordplay on his name but if rules have been put in place to prevent such then its not really up for debate.
I've explained previously as far as I'm concerned, as a mod and poster, gentle P taking of non-members providing it doesn't break forum rules is all to play for; gentle p taking of members is off limits as it would inevitably escalate.
You make disparaging comments about those who read The Sun and watch Loose Women which some might find offensive especially if they read The Sun and watch Loose Women. Where does all this subjectivity start and end? I would suggest its the reason that we have laws of the land which are objective and clearly defined as to what is and isn't acceptable.
I agree all the faux outrage about petty irrelevant comments is childish and the stuff of primary school playgrounds.
Since arriving here, and no doubt my mere presence has outraged some, I've been criticised for referring to the main protagonists by their initials. Someone even went as far as suggesting it was disrespectful to MM. I made a light-hearted comment about KM/GM, as a Liverpudlian and Glaswegian, preferring sausage and chips over the tapas dishes of chorizio and patatas bravas which didn't go down well in some quarters. Now its my reference to KM's b..k. I rather think some here would like me gone. And yet a former investigating official is allowed, by law, to publish a book about the McCanns on the basis they killed their daughter and covered it up with a little help from their friends. &%%6
I don't get emotionally involved with the cases I look at or the protagonists. I've already said on the basis of KM's b..k I find her difficult to warm to but that makes no difference to the fact that I believe her testimony to be entirely reliable and I think the idea she administered sedatives to her children and/or accidentally killed MM and then attempted to cover it up is utterly absurd.
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Post #875 tells which people the PJ wanted DNA collected from, and it didn't include the Gordon children. It was just the father they wanted DNA from.
I once had a stereo unit which would intercept police radio messages to play audio from the unit broadcasting. Not only annoying when interrupting the programme being listened to but frustrating in that only one side of the police conversation could be heard and understood.
I think that is very much the trap you fall into when skimming through the PJ files available to us on the internet.
You are hearing one side of a story taken out of context and focusing all your reliance on it if it suits your purposes, quite forgetting there are many other inputs of which you cannot be aware.
The FSS didn't act on their own initiative; the check on the child's DNA was requested by someone; and you don't have sufficient information to speculate either on whose DNA may or may not have been requested, by whom or when, but the report was sent to the Policia Judiciaria in Portugal which might provide a clue.
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Davel re your comment re my suspects/MET, as I've previously posted afaik my suspects have not lived in UK since 2005 therefore all the MET can do is pass on any intelligence to the country where the crime was committed and the current country of residence which I believe to be Portugal. Given the secrecy laws in Portugal surrounding the reporting on criminal cases what would you expect to see/hear this early on?
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Davel re your comment re my suspects/MET, as I've previously posted afaik my suspects have not lived in UK since 2005 therefore all the MET can do is pass on any intelligence to the country where the crime was committed and the current country of residence which I believe to be Portugal. Given the secrecy laws in Portugal surrounding the reporting on criminal cases what would you expect to see/hear this early on?
Given that you think Maddie is actually with this couple... Given that you have named this couple... And uts quite obvious who they are. .the Cats out of the bag... After 3 months I would have expected Maddue to have been found and the culpruts arrested
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What is childish is continuing to goad and take the p, when you have been asked politely not to do so, particularly when you’re a moderator.
Admin/John and moderators decide the boundaries based on many factors and as far as I know none of us wish to model ourselves on the late Mary Whitehouse.
I would suggest if some here are so offended by my play on a word using the letters ew instead of oo to emphasise a Liverpudlian accent then public internet forums are probably not the place for them.
I seem to recall someone here removed a hyphen from a member's forum name to form the name gunnit instead of G-Unit which I thought rather disrespectful although I never commented and afaik neither did G-Unit.
Anyway hows about you making a positive contribution to the forum by way of a case related post and/or starting up a thread for debate instead of popping up all the time at the slightest whiff of any discord.
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Admin/John and moderators decide the boundaries based on many factors and as far as I know none of us wish to model ourselves on the late Mary Whitehouse.
I would suggest if some here are so offended by my play on a word using the letters ew instead of oo to emphasise a Liverpudlian accent then public internet forums are probably not the place for them.
I seem to recall someone here removed a hyphen from a member's forum name to form the name gunnit instead of G-Unit which I thought rather disrespectful although I never commented and afaik neither did G-Unit.
Anyway hows about you making a positive contribution to the forum by way of a case related post and/or starting up a thread for debate instead of popping up all the time at the slightest whiff of any discord.
I don't think making a ridiculous claim that you've solved the case amounts to a positive contribution to the forum
It's all about opinion
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Given that you think Maddie is actually with this couple... Given that you have named this couple... And uts quite obvious who they are. .the Cats out of the bag... After 3 months I would have expected Maddue to have been found and the culpruts arrested
Although I'm sure, in my own mind, on my suspect(s)/theory I've always said I can't be sure of the motive. And you will also note that I use the word 'suspect(s)' as I can't be sure whether both were involved or one acted alone and if the latter which one.
How do you know they haven't?
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I don't think making a ridiculous claim that you've solved the case amounts to a positive contribution to the forum
It's all about opinion
And I think your overuse of the word 'ridiculous' reduces its effect to zero.
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Although I'm sure, in my own mind, on my suspect(s)/theory I've always said I can't be sure of the motive. And you will also note that I use the word 'suspect(s)' as I can't be sure whether both were involved or one acted alone and if the latter which one.
How do you know they haven't?
Are you suggesting they may have been arrested...
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And I think your overuse of the word 'ridiculous' reduces its effect to zero.
I don't... Again it's down to opinion
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Are you suggesting they may have been arrested...
I haven't suggested anything but you seem sure that MM hasn't been found, dead or alive, and arrests haven't been made?
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I haven't suggested anything but you seem sure that MM hasn't been found, dead or alive, and arrests haven't been made?
I'm sure, we would have heard if she had been found
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Are you suggesting they may have been arrested...
I haven't suggested anything. You have suggested that if my theory/suspect(s) passed to OG are correct then you would expect MET to have taken action, MM found and arrests made. I'm asking you if any such action has been taken how/when would you expect this to be communicated the general public?
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I'm sure, we would have heard if she had been found
By what means?
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By what means?
Do you think something as big as that could be kept quiet
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Do you think something as big as that could be kept quiet
Do you think it couldn't?
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I think they did very well in terms of identifying and interviewing everyone who worked at the Ocean Club. It's down to their hard work that we know where every worker says they were on the evening of 3rd May. By contrast we know very little about the whereabouts of most of the holidaymakers that evening.
PJ was able to do this effectively as the OC employees were part of the static population of PDL. Much of the PDL population was highly transient in that they were holidaymakers many of whom departed on Sat 5th May and some visitors would not have featured on anyone's radar.
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Do you think it couldn't?
I think it would be impossible
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Maybe OG has been systematically working through holiday makers in PDL by way of info from tour companies, passport control, phone records, hire cars, phone records, electronic payments etc, etc.
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U think it would be impossible
Did I say I thought it impossible?
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There was a suspected semen sample which became not semen.
The voluntary samples were also compared with 'crime stain 1', a DNA profile obtained by Portuguese scientists using their DNA profile system. The profile was recovered from suspected semen on a blanket in the apartment 5.
I conclude further that, the DNA profiles obtained from the 'crime stain 1' and 286A/2007/CRL9A & B coincide with Charlie Gordon (bar code 51156964). I believe that Charlie Gordon was born on 29 January 2005, and if this is the case, in my opinion, the DNA profile obtained in 'crime stain 1' is not the result of semen found on the blanket.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
I wonder if that boy slept in the bed? He was only a month older than the McCann twins.
But what method of profiling was used? Low copy number (LCN) is not capable of determining the type of cellular material eg blood, sweat, semen etc.
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But what method of profiling was used? Low copy number (LCN) is not capable of determining the type of cellular material eg blood, sweat, semen etc.
If it was visible it wouldnt be LCN
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If it was visible it wouldnt be LCN
So what method was used then?
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Does any reliable DNA exist?
Many newspaper articles claim the following:
Now, after all the innuendo, Jornal de Notícias has carried a report saying that DNA evidence has ruled Euclides out.
https://www.portugalresident.com/2014/11/10/madeleine-dna-finally-clears-dead-suspect/
If the above is accurate it suggests some reliable DNA evidence was found in 5A?
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I've only read quickly the FSS report but I seem to recall the scientist(s) claimed a male component was found and I'm wondering whether some have then attributed this to a semen stain when in reality if the profile/component was produced from LCN it would not be possible to determine the source of cellular material ie semen.
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But what method of profiling was used? Low copy number (LCN) is not capable of determining the type of cellular material eg blood, sweat, semen etc.
Acid Phosphatase Test to detect semen on the small spot on the cloth fragment in envelope no. 5 recovered from the bedspread of the bed next to the window of the children's bedroom: Weakly positive...
Autosomic STRs:
- were obtained from: hair root CEnv 7-51 recovered in the apartment (entrance hall-Env.7), hair root PVT07 recovered in the vehicle (floor in front of rear seat Env.4), hair root C742-05 recovered in the vehicle (floor in front of the front seat-Env. 3) and the small spot on the piece of cloth (recovered from the bedspread of the bed next to the window in the children's bedroom Env.5).
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
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Acid Phosphatase Test to detect semen on the small spot on the cloth fragment in envelope no. 5 recovered from the bedspread of the bed next to the window of the children's bedroom: Weakly positive...
Autosomic STRs:
- were obtained from: hair root CEnv 7-51 recovered in the apartment (entrance hall-Env.7), hair root PVT07 recovered in the vehicle (floor in front of rear seat Env.4), hair root C742-05 recovered in the vehicle (floor in front of the front seat-Env. 3) and the small spot on the piece of cloth (recovered from the bedspread of the bed next to the window in the children's bedroom Env.5).
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
The Acid Phosphatase Test (APT) is a presumptive test for semen and must be confirmed by other means to determine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdnOTMXiUW0
At the end of the day apartment 5A temporarily housed a high turnover of holiday makers and was visited by others eg guests of holiday makers, cleaning and maintenance personnel all of whom would leave behind a trail of dna. The only way I can see any of it being relevant is if a match can be found by someone already on a database and/or a suspect provides a dna sample and it matches dna found in 5A. Even then it could be fraught with issues of contamination if the person had some legitimate reason for being around 5A.
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Did police ever produce a list of DNA from 5A that they did identify ?
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I once had a stereo unit which would intercept police radio messages to play audio from the unit broadcasting. Not only annoying when interrupting the programme being listened to but frustrating in that only one side of the police conversation could be heard and understood.
I think that is very much the trap you fall into when skimming through the PJ files available to us on the internet.
You are hearing one side of a story taken out of context and focusing all your reliance on it if it suits your purposes, quite forgetting there are many other inputs of which you cannot be aware.
The FSS didn't act on their own initiative; the check on the child's DNA was requested by someone; and you don't have sufficient information to speculate either on whose DNA may or may not have been requested, by whom or when, but the report was sent to the Policia Judiciaria in Portugal which might provide a clue.
My radiogramme used to pick up messages from airline pilots landing at JFK in the US (when I lived in the Hebrides)
There is clearly information missing from the PJ files, because we don't know who decided to collect DNA from the Gordon child. What is clear is that it wasn't done at the request of the PJ; they only requested his father's DNA.
The report was sent to the PJ in reply to their rogatory request to the FSS, in which they asked about the profile obtained from the semen stain.
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Did police ever produce a list of DNA from 5A that they did identify ?
Afaik its all contained in this report unless others here know different?
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
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Can someone please explain the following in layman’s terms:
“Profile identified by letter "L", present in the spot on the bedspread of the bed next to the window and in seven hairs, meaning that all these samples came from the same person or from someone having the same maternal bloodline, did not match any of the reference samples”.
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Can someone please explain the following in layman’s terms:
“Profile identified by letter "L", present in the spot on the bedspread of the bed next to the window and in seven hairs, meaning that all these samples came from the same person or from someone having the same maternal bloodline, did not match any of the reference samples”.
My interpretation is that various biological samples were collected and tested. The spot on the bedspread was given the reference 'L' along with 7 hairs found in the following locations all of which originated from the same person or persons having the same maternal bloodline.
1 entrance to bedroom
2 entrance hall
4 floor; bed next to window
Reference 'L' did not match any of the reference samples from persons identified eg McCanns.
I don't think its possible to conclude what the spot on the bedspread was. Items such as bedspreads are probably not washed upon changeover of guests 8)><(
Although not harmful if you sent a forensic scientist into a hotel you would expect to find all manner of biological traces from previous guests even when the hotel has a good housekeeping programme in place. Its one of the reasons I try not to think about it when staying in a hotel!
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Thanks, Holly.
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My radiogramme used to pick up messages from airline pilots landing at JFK in the US (when I lived in the Hebrides)
There is clearly information missing from the PJ files, because we don't know who decided to collect DNA from the Gordon child. What is clear is that it wasn't done at the request of the PJ; they only requested his father's DNA.
The report was sent to the PJ in reply to their rogatory request to the FSS, in which they asked about the profile obtained from the semen stain.
Would the child parents not have to give authorisation for childs DNA to be taken? I wonder who asked for it.
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Considering ‘woke, wandered, abducted’: Perhaps Madeleine woke up amidst someone opening the shutters and window. And, hearing people talking. She would have remembered that previously her parents were not in the apartment but at the Tapas bar. Also, that she and Sean were crying and asking her parents the next day why they did not come. She may have asked the person who lifted the shutter where her Mom and Dad were. S/he might have told her she must come to the window, get onto the bed and s/he will take her to her parents. The person might have known that Gerry and Jez were at the small gate and that Madeleine would have probably recognised her Dad’s voice and as being nearby. That would explain the head on the left arm and legs across right arm. She would not have put her shoes on, nor taken her blanket and cuddlecat because she was told that she would be taken to her parents, hence no comfort needed. Therefore no trace of a perpetrator entering/leaving 5A. This might bring back into the frame the Tanner/Smith sighting?
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And Nicola Wall?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10177250/madeleine-mccann-police-knife-crime/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10177250/madeleine-mccann-police-knife-crime/)
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Would the child parents not have to give authorisation for childs DNA to be taken? I wonder who asked for it.
The PJ asked for written consent when they took DNA swabs. If the UK police did the same they didn't enclose that paperwork with the statements of the witnesses.
The FSS created a database of DNA given voluntarily, but who gave the samples isn't known.
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I thought I would leave a reminder that Holly promised to have an update...hopefully later this week. Her claims really do call her judgement and analytical skills into question....imo
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I thought I would leave a reminder that Holly promised to have an update...hopefully later this week. Her claims really do call her judgement and analytical skills into question....imo
Although I do not share a belief in Holly's theory.(what we know of it so far) I respect her right to air it,post it and believe it because she does it so elequently.
If I really had to believe in an abduction from the apartment- Holly's makes more sense than those parents and T9.
All due respect Anthro- the jemmied shutters and open window and whooshing are all red herrings as is the 'moving door'.
However, " The person might have known that Gerry and Jez were at the small gate and that Madeleine would have probably recognised her Dad’s voice and as being nearby. That would explain the head on the left arm and legs across right arm. She would not have put her shoes on, nor taken her blanket and cuddlecat because she was told that she would be taken to her parents, hence no comfort needed. Therefore no trace of a perpetrator entering/leaving 5A. This might bring back into the frame the Tanner/Smith sighting?"
this is a possibility, highly unlikely IMO.
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Although I do not share a belief in Holly's theory.(what we know of it so far) I respect her right to air it,post it and believe it because she does it so elequently.
If I really had to believe in an abduction from the apartment- Holly's makes more sense than those parents and T9.
All due respect Anthro- the jemmied shutters and open window and whooshing are all red herrings as is the 'moving door'.
However, " The person might have known that Gerry and Jez were at the small gate and that Madeleine would have probably recognised her Dad’s voice and as being nearby. That would explain the head on the left arm and legs across right arm. She would not have put her shoes on, nor taken her blanket and cuddlecat because she was told that she would be taken to her parents, hence no comfort needed. Therefore no trace of a perpetrator entering/leaving 5A. This might bring back into the frame the Tanner/Smith sighting?"
this is a possibility, highly unlikely IMO.
Holly hasn't posted her theory as you seem to think... So I'm not sure how you can refer to her post as eloquent
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Although I do not share a belief in Holly's theory.(what we know of it so far) I respect her right to air it,post it and believe it because she does it so elequently.
If I really had to believe in an abduction from the apartment- Holly's makes more sense than those parents and T9.
All due respect Anthro- the jemmied shutters and open window and whooshing are all red herrings as is the 'moving door'.
However, " The person might have known that Gerry and Jez were at the small gate and that Madeleine would have probably recognised her Dad’s voice and as being nearby. That would explain the head on the left arm and legs across right arm. She would not have put her shoes on, nor taken her blanket and cuddlecat because she was told that she would be taken to her parents, hence no comfort needed. Therefore no trace of a perpetrator entering/leaving 5A. This might bring back into the frame the Tanner/Smith sighting?"
this is a possibility, highly unlikely IMO.
Do you respect my right to believe that Madeleine was abducted? If not, why not?
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Holly hasn't posted her theory as you seem to think... So I'm not sure how you can refer to her post as eloquent
You missed a bit in a hurry to snipe... Oh dear.
[what we know of it so far] All her posts are interesting and thought provoking IMO. as are G units.
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You missed a bit in a hurry to snipe... Oh dear.
[what we know of it so far] All her posts are interesting and thought provoking IMO. as are G units.
as you say...in your opinion....thats about the most enlightening staeemnt youve ever made....puts all your posts into context.
Hollys conclusion...its not a theory she actully thinks its true. Maddie was taken by Mrs Fenns neice to teach the McCanns a lesson as she felt she maddie was being neglected.....her idea was to return Maddie to the McCanns once the dust had settled. if you want to beleive thats a reasonable idea thats up to you. i think its straight from the nutty box
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as you say...in your opinion....thats about the most enlightening staeemnt youve ever made....puts all your posts into context.
Hollys conclusion...its not a theory she actully thinks its true. Maddie was taken by Mrs Fenns neice to teach the McCanns a lesson as she felt she maddie was being neglected.....her idea was to return Maddie to the McCanns once the dust had settled. if you want to beleive thats a reasonable idea thats up to you. i think its straight from the nutty box
Unlike you and the other 'supporters', I can disagree with someones theory without being nasty and snipe at them.
You said she didn't disclose her theory- Seh discussed she believed in the abduction and explained how. I disagree with that. anything else I am not aware of. I do not live here like you and other people who spend life pretending to support (in what way -I wonder) a group of selfish self centered chancers.
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Unlike you and the other 'supporters', I can disagree with someones theory without being nasty and snipe at them.
You said she didn't disclose her theory- Seh discussed she believed in the abduction and explained how. I disagree with that. anything else I am not aware of. I do not live here like you and other people who spend life pretending to support (in what way -I wonder) a group of selfish self centered chancers.
holly has not expalined how..you are wrong yet again.. I worked out her theory...holly has revealed nothing. I dont particu;arly support the Mccanns....but I do support the rule of law. They have never been arrested ...the pJ say there is no evidence against them. You and others seem to prefer anarchy...thats not something to be proud of..
holly has every right to have a theory but to claim it as a fact with no evidence to support it invites ridicule
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‘ ... the jemmied shutters and open window and whooshing are all red herrings as is the 'moving door'.
Hi Miss Taken Identity, you identify four things that were intended to mislead the investigation. How could Madeleine’s parents and their friends fabricate all of this amidst a child being missing? In my opinion it is possible that Madeleine could have had in her mind the selective memory that she and her brother were scared and crying previously. Hypothetically, if she heard some sort of noise she would get up and look around and perhaps ask questions. In my experience it is very likely that a child of that age would follow instructions from an adult, especially if for example the person is skilled in working/communicating with children.
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‘ ... the jemmied shutters and open window and whooshing are all red herrings as is the 'moving door'.
Hi Miss Taken Identity, you identify four things that were intended to mislead the investigation. How could Madeleine’s parents and their friends fabricate all of this amidst a child being missing? In my opinion it is possible that Madeleine could have had in her mind the selective memory that she and her brother were scared and crying previously. Hypothetically, if she heard some sort of noise she would get up and look around and perhaps ask questions. In my experience it is very likely that a child of that age would follow instructions from an adult, especially if for example the person is skilled in working/communicating with children.
Hi Anthro,
No one else saw these jemmied shutters, blowing curtains, or moving doors. They managed to do quite a lot of things while a child is missing,suspected by paedophiles.
"In my experience it is very likely that a child of that age would follow instructions from an adult, especially if for example the person is skilled in working/communicating with children."
I agree with this entirely, for any child in any situation it can be called 'grooming' but do not see this within the realms of the time line of the McCanns claims. We need to agree to disagree on this part.
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Hi Anthro,
No one else saw these jemmied shutters, blowing curtains, or moving doors. They managed to do quite a lot of things while a child is missing,suspected by paedophiles.
"In my experience it is very likely that a child of that age would follow instructions from an adult, especially if for example the person is skilled in working/communicating with children."
I agree with this entirely, for any child in any situation it can be called 'grooming' but do not see this within the realms of the time line of the McCanns claims. We need to agree to disagree on this part.
anthro is not talking about grooming....simply the language of persuasion
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Different question, same analogy: Dig - Ok, Mickey, he's the boss, no question, a little naive, a little reckless. Vindictive? No. Heck, he's Steamboat Willie from the off, but incompetent - and lucky.
Goofy - what is he? A dog? No. He's a half-wit - Lennie Small, if you will, a Davel type, not much happening up there? A shiftless, gangly dude, feckless in a way, compassionate. But there's George completing the symbiosis.
He's a device. In it's own way your question is loaded - loaded with goofy - it's a device. Are you George? No. You're Donald - the quick-tempered, with semi-intelligible speech, coupled with mischievous and temperamental personality. In a sailor's costume. No gloves.
OK, you’ve resorted to insults. What a shame. Semi-intelligble? Really?? Deeply hurt.
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OK, you’ve resorted to insults. What a shame. Semi-intelligble? Really?? Deeply hurt.
The uninitiated may take that at face value, but I know you've got the skin of an Aussie Gold Miner
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The uninitiated may take that at face value, but I know you've got the skin of an Aussie Gold Miner
VS may or may not ....i certainly do and dont take any offence at your post. Im quite confident and comfortable as to where my intellect places me on the Bell curve...
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The uninitiated may take that at face value, but I know you've got the skin of an Aussie Gold Miner
That’s where you’re wrong. You’re the omly sceptic on here whose views I respect, because I think you’re basically honest and decent. So well done, your post hurt. Had theycome from anyone else not so much. No matter. The gloves (that I don’t wear, having instead white feathers for hands) are off. Quack, quack!!!!!!
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That’s where you’re wrong. You’re the omly sceptic on here whose views I respect, because I think you’re basically honest and decent. So well done, your post hurt. Had theycome from anyone else not so much. No matter. The gloves (that I don’t wear, having instead white feathers for hands) are off. Quack, quack!!!!!!
Yeh, I still think you're kidding.
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Yeh, I still think you're kidding.
I don’t care what you think anymore *waddles off to quack furiously and semi-intelligibly at Huey, Lewis and Dewie*
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‘ ... the jemmied shutters and open window and whooshing are all red herrings as is the 'moving door'.
Hi Miss Taken Identity, you identify four things that were intended to mislead the investigation. How could Madeleine’s parents and their friends fabricate all of this amidst a child being missing? In my opinion it is possible that Madeleine could have had in her mind the selective memory that she and her brother were scared and crying previously. Hypothetically, if she heard some sort of noise she would get up and look around and perhaps ask questions. In my experience it is very likely that a child of that age would follow instructions from an adult, especially if for example the person is skilled in working/communicating with children.
I agree with your synopsis Anthro, particularly if that person is known to the child.
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So what is the position Holly on the news you said you might have towards the end of the week.... It's the end of the week
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So what is the position Holly on the news you said you might have towards the end of the week.... It's the end of the week
I have carried out offline activities this week but it remains a work in progress 8(>(( ?>)()< I will email John and Myster an update just to verify that I have this week been involved in offline activities as well as non-forum online activities.
And yes I'm still firmly of the opinion that I'm right with my suspects/theory. And yes I know you think I'm ridiculous/rubbish along with my posts 8)><(
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I have carried out offline activities this week but it remains a work in progress 8(>(( ?>)()< I will email John and Myster an update just to verify that I have this week been involved in offline activities as well as non-forum online activities.
And yes I'm still firmly of the opinion that I'm right with my suspects/theory. And yes I know you think I'm ridiculous/rubbish along with my posts 8)><(
It isn't just me... Myster told us about your theory and he thinks it's ridiculous too..
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It isn't just me... Myster told us about your theory and he thinks it's ridiculous too..
Goading is allowed now? Sweet!
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Although I do not share a belief in Holly's theory.(what we know of it so far) I respect her right to air it,post it and believe it because she does it so elequently.
If I really had to believe in an abduction from the apartment- Holly's makes more sense than those parents and T9.
All due respect Anthro- the jemmied shutters and open window and whooshing are all red herrings as is the 'moving door'.
However, " The person might have known that Gerry and Jez were at the small gate and that Madeleine would have probably recognised her Dad’s voice and as being nearby. That would explain the head on the left arm and legs across right arm. She would not have put her shoes on, nor taken her blanket and cuddlecat because she was told that she would be taken to her parents, hence no comfort needed. Therefore no trace of a perpetrator entering/leaving 5A. This might bring back into the frame the Tanner/Smith sighting?"
this is a possibility, highly unlikely IMO.
Thanks Miss Taken Identity 8((()*/
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It isn't just me... Myster told us about your theory and he thinks it's ridiculous too..
Interesting that wish to focus on what Myster said and not what John said ie it was plausible; he hadn't seen it suggested previously; showed I was thinking out the box!
And Myster did not tell the forum about my theory.
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Interesting that wish to focus on what Myster said and not what John said ie it was plausible; he hadn't seen it suggested previously; showed I was thinking out the box!
And Myster did not tell the forum about my theory.
So Mrs Fenn’s niece is categorically not your suspect then?
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So Mrs Fenn’s niece is categorically not your suspect then?
That's Davel's theory about Holly's theory, isn't it? Holly's theory includes someone watching and noticing that the children were being left alone and that the patio doors were being left unlocked every evening. The lady you mention wasn't there to do that imo.
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That's Davel's theory about Holly's theory, isn't it? Holly's theory includes someone watching and noticing that the children were being left alone and that the patio doors were being left unlocked every evening. The lady you mention wasn't there to do that imo.
Very much along the lines of Sadie's theory minus indicating any named individual on Sadie's part..
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That's Davel's theory about Holly's theory, isn't it? Holly's theory includes someone watching and noticing that the children were being left alone and that the patio doors were being left unlocked every evening. The lady you mention wasn't there to do that imo.
My question was addressed to Holly, hopefully she can answer in the affirmative or the negative.
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That's Davel's theory about Holly's theory, isn't it? Holly's theory includes someone watching and noticing that the children were being left alone and that the patio doors were being left unlocked every evening. The lady you mention wasn't there to do that imo.
My theory is that the abductor was someone who knew MM was 'home alone' in the unsecured apartment and what the McCanns MO was of an evening. This knowledge could have been gained first hand by observation or second-hand from someone else who was in a position to gain that information.
PF claims she heard MM crying on 1st May calling out 'Daddy, daddy' from 10.30 pm - 11.45 pm which stopped when she heard the patio doors slide open which she assumed was the McCanns returning. PF claims she called a local friend to discuss the situation. Who else, if anyone, did PF tell and was it passed on to anyone else by PF's local friend, Edna Glyn? Effectively they were letting others know MM was home alone in the unsecured apartment.
By all accounts the nights were cold and dark so I can't see too many people spending enough time on balconies to observe the McCanns MO directly. I think the abductor(s) gained the knowledge from PF directly or indirectly.
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My theory is that the abductor was someone who knew MM was 'home alone' in the unsecured apartment and what the McCanns MO was of an evening. This knowledge could have been gained first hand by observation or second-hand from someone else who was in a position to gain that information.
PF claims she heard MM crying on 1st May calling out 'Daddy, daddy' from 10.30 pm - 11.45 pm which stopped when she heard the patio doors slide open which she assumed was the McCanns returning. PF claims she called a local friend to discuss the situation. Who else, if anyone, did PF tell and was it passed on to anyone else by PF's local friend, Edna Glyn? Effectively they were letting others know MM was home alone in the unsecured apartment.
By all accounts the nights were cold and dark so I can't see too many people spending enough time on balconies to observe the McCanns MO directly. I think the abductor(s) gained the knowledge from PF directly or indirectly.
Pamela Fenn made no such observation.
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That's Davel's theory about Holly's theory, isn't it? Holly's theory includes someone watching and noticing that the children were being left alone and that the patio doors were being left unlocked every evening. The lady you mention wasn't there to do that imo.
It's not a theory it's a fact. Hollys theory is that Mrs, Fenns neice took Madeleine to teach the mccanns a lesson
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Interesting that wish to focus on what Myster said and not what John said ie it was plausible; he hadn't seen it suggested previously; showed I was thinking out the box!
And Myster did not tell the forum about my theory.
Mystery said yesterday that Maddie, was taken by someone concerned Maddie, was being left alone... Taken to teach the McCann's a lesson. We've already established that person was Mrs fenns niece
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So Mrs Fenn’s niece is categorically not your suspect then?
According to PF's niece's police rog she visited on the Sun and Thu along with her husband. If they have knowledge of MM's disappearance how would I know if they both have knowledge or one only has knowledge and if one, which one?!
If MM was abducted we have no idea of the motive: perp(s) have emotional/mental health issues/addictions to mood altering substances/child/grandchild to raise as own/sexual/monetary gain.
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Mystery said yesterday that Maddie, was taken by someone concerned Maddie, was being left alone... Taken to teach the McCann's a lesson. We've already established that person was Mrs fenns niece
I've never put forward a definitive motive to anyone and that's a FACT.
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Pamela Fenn made no such observation.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.
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https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.
Like I said no claim it was Madeleine crying.
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PF also claims she was the victim of a recent burglary so any perp gaining info from PF might well have opened the window/raised the shutter knowing an attempted burglary had recently taken place above 5A.
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I've never put forward a definitive motive to anyone and that's a FACT.
So that's just a possible motive. ......put forward by you
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Like I said no claim it was Madeleine crying.
No she didn't refer to MM by name but she had seen the McCann family walking around during the day, was adamant the crying was from 5A and that it wasn't from a child of 2 years or younger ergo MM.
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No she didn't refer to MM by name but she had seen the McCann family walking around during the day, was adamant the crying was from 5A and that it wasn't from a child of 2 years or younger ergo MM.
Still doesn't make it so.
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So that's just a possible motive. ......put forward by you
Its possible some high minded person might have thought the McCanns needed teaching a lesson about leaving their children 'home alone'. Even someone who might appear outwardly 'normal' can have emotional problems, mental health issues and/or abuse substances that make them act irrationally. We simply don't know. It would be silly to say well this person or that person wouldn't do this that or the other because they don't appear criminally minded or they have such and such status or they're this age or that age etc, etc.
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According to PF's niece's police rog she visited on the Sun and Thu along with her husband. If they have knowledge of MM's disappearance how would I know if they both have knowledge or one only has knowledge and if one, which one?!
If MM was abducted we have no idea of the motive: perp(s) have emotional/mental health issues/addictions to mood altering substances/child/grandchild to raise as own/sexual/monetary gain.
You’ve already described your suspect as female, middle class, well off - are you now backtracking?
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Still doesn't make it so.
Its a sensible inference to draw.
In any event it doesn't really matter. What's important is what she thinks she heard:
- A child not under the age of 2 crying 10.30 pm to 11.45 pm
- Parents returning via patio doors which can't be locked from outside
Who did she tell the above to other than Edna Glyn and who did EG tell?
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You’ve already described your suspect as female, middle class, well off - are you now backtracking?
I thought I always referred to suspect(s)?
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Its a sensible inference to draw.
In any event it doesn't really matter. What's important is what she thinks she heard:
- A child not under the age of 2 crying 10.30 pm to 11.45 pm
- Parents returning via patio doors which can't be locked from outside
Who did she tell the above to other than Edna Glyn and who did EG tell?
It clearly matters to your theory.
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May I remind posters of the high level rules on the homepage:
* Posters are asked to keep to thread topics where possible
* Libellous or defamatory material will be removed on sight
* Abuse will not be tolerated. Break the rules expect a ban!
Putting forward names as potential abductors is considered libellous as such any posts will be removed on sight.
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It clearly matters to your theory.
My theory is that someone abducted MM from 5A having gleaned knowledge of the McCanns nighttime MO. Its possible PF may have unwittingly been the source of that knowledge.
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No she didn't refer to MM by name but she had seen the McCann family walking around during the day, was adamant the crying was from 5A and that it wasn't from a child of 2 years or younger ergo MM.
From her vantage points in 5G, how would Mrs Fenn have been aware which of the 4 families was in 5A?
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My theory is that the abductor was someone who knew MM was 'home alone' in the unsecured apartment and what the McCanns MO was of an evening. This knowledge could have been gained first hand by observation or second-hand from someone else who was in a position to gain that information.
PF claims she heard MM crying on 1st May calling out 'Daddy, daddy' from 10.30 pm - 11.45 pm which stopped when she heard the patio doors slide open which she assumed was the McCanns returning. PF claims she called a local friend to discuss the situation. Who else, if anyone, did PF tell and was it passed on to anyone else by PF's local friend, Edna Glyn? Effectively they were letting others know MM was home alone in the unsecured apartment.
By all accounts the nights were cold and dark so I can't see too many people spending enough time on balconies to observe the McCanns MO directly. I think the abductor(s) gained the knowledge from PF directly or indirectly.
Libel by inference.
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According to PF's niece's police rog she visited on the Sun and Thu along with her husband. If they have knowledge of MM's disappearance how would I know if they both have knowledge or one only has knowledge and if one, which one?!
If MM was abducted we have no idea of the motive: perp(s) have emotional/mental health issues/addictions to mood altering substances/child/grandchild to raise as own/sexual/monetary gain.
Libel by inference.
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Libel by inference.
I am not inferring anyone since no one knows who PF may have shared the knowledge with other than Edna Glyn and no one knows who Edna Glyn shared with and no one knows who may have overheard.
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From her vantage points in 5G, how would Mrs Fenn have been aware which of the 4 families was in 5A?
Please read PF's wit stat:
When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence.
She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle.
She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering.
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I am not inferring anyone since no one knows who PF may have shared the knowledge with other than Edna Glyn and no one knows who Edna Glyn shared with and no one knows who may have overheard.
You are inferring someone because we all know who you’ve fingered in your theory which you sent to the police.
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Its a sensible inference to draw.
In any event it doesn't really matter. What's important is what she thinks she heard:
- A child not under the age of 2 crying 10.30 pm to 11.45 pm
- Parents returning via patio doors which can't be locked from outside
Who did she tell the above to other than Edna Glyn and who did EG tell?
The earliest either of those ladies would have had chance to gossip locally about the crying would have been the Wednesday morning. Surely the crying was insignificant to Mrs Fenn as it didn't prevent her from sleeping on the Tuesday night and was even more meaningless to Edna Glyn. Furthermore PF could not possibly have known that the children in 5A had been left without adult supervision, given that occupancy of the apartment changed on at least a weekly basis if not more frequently.
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Please read PF's wit stat:
When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence.
She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle.
She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering.
Her statement does not answer the question as to how she knew the McCann family were in the apartment immediately below her if she only saw them on the streets. From her vantage point, how could she tell which apartment the McCann family, as opposed to the Paynes or JT/ROB departed from before seeing them on the streets?
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Her statement does not answer the question as to how she knew the McCann family were in the apartment immediately below her if she only saw them on the streets. From her vantage point, how could she tell which apartment the McCann family, as opposed to the Paynes or JT/ROB departed from before seeing them on the streets?
Misty she was a retired 80 year old widow who resided directly above 5A full-time. I doubt much escaped her attention.
The McCanns were having breakfast and lunch in their apartment returning at 5.30 pm with the children. I would imagine PF saw/heard the McCanns especially if the respective occupants of 5A and 5G were sat out on their balconies and/or the McCann children were playing in the small garden.
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Misty she was a retired 80 year old widow who resided directly above 5A full-time. I doubt much escaped her attention.
The McCanns were having breakfast and lunch in their apartment returning at 5.30 pm with the children. I would imagine PF saw/heard the McCanns especially if the respective occupants of 5A and 5G were sat out on their balconies and/or the McCann children were playing in the small garden.
Carole Tranmer could not fully describe the man she saw leaving by 5B's gateway because she only saw him from above. Given that the McCanns often left the apartment separately with a differing number of children each time, how observant do you think that 80 year old lady was when leaning over her balcony?
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Carole Tranmer could not fully describe the man she saw leaving by 5B's gateway because she only saw him from above. Given that the McCanns often left the apartment separately with a differing number of children each time, how observant do you think that 80 year old lady was when leaning over her balcony?
PF was living directly above the McCanns for 5 days when MM disappeared. CAT was only visiting and according to her rog visited on the Sun and Thu.
CAT claims she observed a man acting suspiciously but we don't know whether she actually saw anyone. She may have wanted to mislead the investigation eg Wearside Jack; or just want to be part of something; or using it to deflect blame.
She claims she alerted PF and her husband to the man at the time but they were too engrossed in conversation to hear. Given PF had recently sustained an attempted burglary, and assuming she told CAT why wouldn't she make sure PF heard?
It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible). I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident.
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The earliest either of those ladies would have had chance to gossip locally about the crying would have been the Wednesday morning. Surely the crying was insignificant to Mrs Fenn as it didn't prevent her from sleeping on the Tuesday night and was even more meaningless to Edna Glyn. Furthermore PF could not possibly have known that the children in 5A had been left without adult supervision, given that occupancy of the apartment changed on at least a weekly basis if not more frequently.
You don't know who was with EG when PF phoned.
The crying was significant enough for PF to call a local friend late at night to discuss.
Misty PF's wit stat makes clear she knew who the McCanns were as she saw them walking around. Consider the McCanns entering and exiting via the side gate as they did during the day along with the children and PF sat out on her balcony. Yes PF did know the children were left unsupervised in 5A in the unsecured apartment based on the crying which ceased when she heard the patio doors slide open.
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You don't know who was with EG when PF phoned.
The crying was significant enough for PF to call a local friend late at night to discuss.
Misty PF's wit stat makes clear she knew who the McCanns were as she saw them walking around. Consider the McCanns entering and exiting via the side gate as they did during the day along with the children and PF sat out on her balcony. Yes PF did know the children were left unsupervised in 5A in the unsecured apartment based on the crying which ceased when she heard the patio doors slide open.
Sorry but I disagree almost entirely with all that.
If Mrs Fenn KNEW the children were alone and crying...if Mrs Fenn had experienced a home intrusion days before....why, oh why would she have "phoned a friend", chatted for 75mins & let the crying continue rather than contacting OC reception or the GNR? Did she care so little about what may be unfolding downstairs & so little that the episode didn't warrant mentioning to the parents the following morning?
She could see precious little of 5A sitting on her balcony, let alone the side gate. Furthermore, the sliding of the patio door may have been a babysitter leaving rather than the parents returning - she was indoors & didn't witness anything visually.
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‘My theory is that someone abducted MM from 5A having gleaned knowledge of the McCanns nighttime MO. Its possible PF may have unwittingly been the source of that knowledge’. (Holly)
Didn’t Robert Murat say that a woman phoned him up on the night of the crying coming from 5A?
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‘My theory is that someone abducted MM from 5A having gleaned knowledge of the McCanns nighttime MO. Its possible PF may have unwittingly been the source of that knowledge’. (Holly)
Didn’t Robert Murat say that a woman phoned him up on the night of the crying coming from 5A?
Was he not in England on that day/night ?
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Hi Jassi, he must have been. If I remember correctly the statement was made by a police officer re. Murat saying an unknown woman phoned him on the night of the crying.
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Murat left Exeter at 7am on Tuesday, 1 May it seems. Presumably he was in Lagos (with Mikhaela) or Praia da Luz (with Jenny) on the evening of 1 May?
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Please keep to the topic guys and cut the snide remarks otherwise I will impose sanctions.
And by the way, the mass deletion of post content by any member is seen as disruption and will result in permanent account deletion.
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My theory is that someone abducted MM from 5A having gleaned knowledge of the McCanns nighttime MO. Its possible PF may have unwittingly been the source of that knowledge’. (Holly)
Hi Holly, according to your theory, who are the persons who might have gained information from Pamela Fenn that 5A was occupied by three young children each night without parental presence?
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Furthermore, why does Holly believe PF is the only person outside the Tapas group who knew the kids were being left unattended each evening?
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My theory is that someone abducted MM from 5A having gleaned knowledge of the McCanns nighttime MO. Its possible PF may have unwittingly been the source of that knowledge’. (Holly)
Hi Holly, according to your theory, who are the persons who might have gained information from Pamela Fenn that 5A was occupied by three young children each night without parental presence?
Hi Anthro. I've no idea as I don't know who PF discussed with other than her local friend Edna Glyn as per her wit stat. And obviously I've no idea who EG might have discussed with. But basically these ladies were potentially, and unwittingly, letting others know small children were home alone in an unsecured apartment.
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Furthermore, why does Holly believe PF is the only person outside the Tapas group who knew the kids were being left unattended each evening?
That's clearly not the case since JW/BO knew.
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Hi Anthro. I've no idea as I don't know who PF discussed with other than her local friend Edna Glyn as per her wit stat. And obviously I've no idea who EG might have discussed with. But basically these ladies were potentially, and unwittingly, letting others know small children were home alone in an unsecured apartment.
Mrs Fenn's statement was in August,some 3/4 months after the fact,time for an embellishment,possibly,maybe, maybe not.
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That's clearly not the case since JW/BO knew.
So why do you insist the tip off came from PF? Maybe BO and JW dunnit, after all what was he doing so close to the apartment that night eh? Casing the joint prolly. 8(>((
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Thanks Holly, if you consider Pamela Fenn and what she thought she heard and relaying that information to her friend, Edna Glyn, you have to consider who the person was Edna Glyn shared this information with? Was it perhaps, Mrs Murat?
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Thanks Holly, if you consider Pamela Fenn and what she thought she heard and relaying that information to her friend, Edna Glyn, you have to consider who the person was Edna Glyn shared this information with? Was it perhaps, Mrs Murat?
Or all the girls at the bingo.
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And the bingo girls were ... ?
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Thanks Holly, if you consider Pamela Fenn and what she thought she heard and relaying that information to her friend, Edna Glyn, you have to consider who the person was Edna Glyn shared this information with? Was it perhaps, Mrs Murat?
I've no idea who knew who and who might have overheard.
Consider this...Maybe EG had a gardener call on her the morning after PF's tel call to tend to her own garden. She then tells the gardener she is tired due to a late night tell call from her friend and relays the tel conversation. The gardener is familiar with PF as he tends to the gardens at OC therefore he is then in the know that a child is home alone in the evenings in an unsecured apartment under PF.
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So why do you insist the tip off came from PF? Maybe BO and JW dunnit, after all what was he doing so close to the apartment that night eh? Casing the joint prolly. 8(>((
I don't believe PF knowingly tipped off anyone but she may have inadvertently alerted someone directly or indirectly to the fact young children were home alone in an unsecured apartment.
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Or all the girls at the bingo.
Keen on Bingo, are you then, Mr General, Sir ?
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Or all the girls at the bingo.
Games of chance for prizes are basically illegal in Portugal.
A police 'raid' on Kelly's led to fines for all those participating, and rather large fines for those organising it. The prizes were chocolate biscuits.
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This is all so unkind and completely defeats me on occasions. None of you actually care about Madeleine. You just want to rip her Mother to pieces.
Could someone like me solve this case? Probably not. I don't have enough information. And I would never be crass enough to think that I could.
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Games of chance for prizes are basically illegal in Portugal.
A police 'raid' on Kelly's led to fines for all those participating, and rather large fines for those organising it. The prizes were chocolate biscuits.
And everyone who read about this many moons ago fell about laughing. What a State.
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I don't believe PF knowingly tipped off anyone but she may have inadvertently alerted someone directly or indirectly to the fact young children were home alone in an unsecured apartment.
It seems it was common knowledge amongst many that the children were being left home alone
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It seems it was common knowledge amongst many that the children were being left home alone
There are currently circa 7.7 billion humans on the planet. How many do you think knew MM was 'home alone' in the unsecured apartment Sun - Thu incl?
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There are currently circa 7.7 billion humans on the planet. How many do you think knew MM was 'home alone' in the unsecured apartment Sun - Thu incl?
What an odd statement.....it was common knowledge at the OC that the children were home alone
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What an odd statement.....it was common knowledge at the OC that the children were home alone
And how many knew the patio doors were unsecured?
No one is going to think parents are leaving children 'home alone' in an unsecured apartment.
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*%6^
Hmmm let me think...child disappears from holiday apartment...parents out night after night...doors unlocked...elderly retired lady lives above...loads of time on her hands to observe comings and goings...sees family during the day...hears child crying at night for some 1.25 hours...crying stops when she hears patio doors open...assumes parents returning...she deduces parents are dining at tapas and leaving patio doors unsecured...shares this knowledge with local friend and ???!!!
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*%6^
Hmmm let me think...child disappears from holiday apartment...parents out night after night...doors unlocked...elderly retired lady lives above...loads of time on her hands to observe comings and goings...sees family during the day...hears child crying at night for some 1.25 hours...crying stops when she hears patio doors open...assumes parents returning...she deduces parents are dining at tapas and leaving patio doors unsecured...shares this knowledge with local friend and ???!!!
That's quite a list of assumptions Holly.
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*%6^
Hmmm let me think...child disappears from holiday apartment...parents out night after night...doors unlocked...elderly retired lady lives above...loads of time on her hands to observe comings and goings...sees family during the day...hears child crying at night for some 1.25 hours...crying stops when she hears patio doors open...assumes parents returning...she deduces parents are dining at tapas and leaving patio doors unsecured...shares this knowledge with local friend and ???!!!
Meanwhile, waiters working at the Tapas Bar could see a baby monitor on a wall near the BRT* & directly witnessed various parents intermittently leaving & returning to the dining table. It didn't take rocket science & the help of an English-speaking waiter to work out what the parents were doing. Those 2 sentences are not intended to attribute guilt to any of the waiters. They're merely to point out that the waiters had far more opportunity to deduce children were being left on their own than an elderly lady who'd braved the elements for hours sitting on her balcony people-watching rather than relaxing indoors in front of the TV.
*Big Round Table for those not familiar with the Textusa saga.
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Meanwhile, waiters working at the Tapas Bar could see a baby monitor on a wall near the BRT* & directly witnessed various parents intermittently leaving & returning to the dining table. It didn't take rocket science & the help of an English-speaking waiter to work out what the parents were doing. Those 2 sentences are not intended to attribute guilt to any of the waiters. They're merely to point out that the waiters had far more opportunity to deduce children were being left on their own than an elderly lady who'd braved the elements for hours sitting on her balcony people-watching rather than relaxing indoors in front of the TV.
*Big Round Table for those not familiar with the Textusa saga.
Treacle and wading come to mind on that.
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Meanwhile, waiters working at the Tapas Bar could see a baby monitor on a wall near the BRT* & directly witnessed various parents intermittently leaving & returning to the dining table. It didn't take rocket science & the help of an English-speaking waiter to work out what the parents were doing. Those 2 sentences are not intended to attribute guilt to any of the waiters. They're merely to point out that the waiters had far more opportunity to deduce children were being left on their own than an elderly lady who'd braved the elements for hours sitting on her balcony people-watching rather than relaxing indoors in front of the TV.
*Big Round Table for those not familiar with the Textusa saga.
We also know a message was placed in the reservation diary alluding to a group wanting to eat at tapas to keep an eye on their children but none of these people could know that the doors were unlocked. And who leaves doors unlocked whether small children are home alone or not? Its highly unusual and would certainly invalidate any holiday insurance taken out by holiday makers and/or the owner's buildings/contents insurance.
PF didn't need to be on her balcony for hours at a time. She had the advantage of seeing and hearing as she did on 1st May when she heard the patio doors slide open.
Please remember also FGM is on a slope which would afford a good view of the comings and goings of those below.
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We also know a message was placed in the reservation diary alluding to a group wanting to eat at tapas to keep an eye on their children but none of these people could know that the doors were unlocked. And who leaves doors unlocked whether small children are home alone or not? Its highly unusual and would certainly invalidate any holiday insurance taken out by holiday makers and/or the owner's buildings/contents insurance.
PF didn't need to be on her balcony for hours at a time. She had the advantage of seeing and hearing as she did on 1st May when she heard the patio doors slide open.
Please remember also FGM is on a slope which would afford a good view of the comings and goings of those below.
I don't know and am beyond caring who or what FGM is but I do know what FGM is in the real world ... quite unfortunate really in terms of your post.
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I don't know and am beyond caring who or what FGM is but I do know what FGM is in the real world ... quite unfortunate really in terms of your post.
Rua Doutor Francisco Gentil Martins (FGM) for short 8((()*/
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Rua Doutor Francisco Gentil Martins (FGM) for short 8((()*/
Not anywhere I have seen with the exception of in your post.
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Not anywhere I have seen with the exception of in your post.
Well I can't claim to be the originator. Quite nifty as Rua Doutour Francisco Gentil Martins is somewhat of a mouthful.
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Anyway I think maybe its difficult to appreciate the gradient of FGM and the view afforded from PF's balcony of the surrounding area.
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Anyway I think maybe its difficult to appreciate the gradient of FGM and the view afforded from PF's balcony of the surrounding area.
KM's PB:
Page 62:
Though I envied David and Fiona their sea view...
KM its an Ocean. You were not on the Clyde or 'Pool.
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That's quite a list of assumptions Holly.
Not really?
- MM disappeared from apartment (unless she woke and wandered and there's not any evidence of this)
- Parents out every night at tapas circa 8.30 pm to late (evidenced by T9 testimony and OC employees).
- Patio doors unlocked (as per testimony of PF/GM/KM/MO and JW.
- Elderly retired lady lives above (as per wit stat)
- Time on hands to observe others around her (retired and without family so would have a lot of free time)
- Saw McCanns during day (as per wit stat). Would have excellent view from her terrace of pool, creche, tennis courts, tapas and people walking up and down FGM.
- Hears child crying at night (as per wit stat)
- Crying stops when she hears patio doors slide open (as per wit stat)
- Assumes parents returning (as per wit stat)
- Deduces parents dining out at tapas every evening and leaving patio doors open (Assumption on my part she has knowledge parents dining at tapas but she would have birds eye view from her apartment of the whole area and by all accounts the group was loud; remember BO's comments re the group when she was observing from her own balcony)
- Shares knowledge with local friend Edna Glyn (as per wit stat)
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Not really?
- MM disappeared from apartment (unless she woke and wandered and there's not any evidence of this)
- Parents out every night at tapas circa 8.30 pm to late (evidenced by T9 testimony and OC employees).
- Patio doors unlocked (as per testimony of PF/GM/KM/MO and JW.
- Elderly retired lady lives above (as per wit stat)
- Time on hands to observe others around her (retired and without family so would have a lot of free time)
- Saw McCanns during day (as per wit stat). Would have excellent view from her terrace of pool, creche, tennis courts, tapas and people walking up and down FGM.
- Hears child crying at night (as per wit stat)
- Crying stops when she hears patio doors slide open (as per wit stat)
- Assumes parents returning (as per wit stat)
- Deduces parents dining out at tapas every evening and leaving patio doors open (Assumption on my part she has knowledge parents dining at tapas but she would have birds eye view from her apartment of the whole area and by all accounts the group was loud; remember BO's comments re the group when she was observing from her own balcony)
- Shares knowledge with local friend Edna Glyn (as per wit stat)
(ty6e[
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
They booked a large table every night in the Tapas. We called them "the Doctors". Sometimes we would sit out on our balcony and their laughter would float up around us. One man was the joker. He had a loud Glaswegian accent. He was Gerry McCann.
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(ty6e[
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
They booked a large table every night in the Tapas. We called them "the Doctors". Sometimes we would sit out on our balcony and their laughter would float up around us. One man was the joker. He had a loud Glaswegian accent. He was Gerry McCann.
(ty6e[
The Moyes were also sitting on their balcony:
Paul and Susan described how they were sat on the balcony sharing a few glasses of whiskey and "didn't see a soul" between 9pm and 9:30pm.
https://closeronline.co.uk/real-life/news/witnesses-kate-gerry-mccann-madeleine-holiday-paul-susan-moyes-jenny-murat/
No reason PF would not have sat on her balcony some of the time and observed what was going down of an evening with T9. The McCanns were next door to the Oldfields with JT/ROB one removed and the Paynes above the unoccupied apartment between Oldfields and JT/ROB. What's the betting the group would call out to one another on the balconies. Some may even have extended the social on the balconies post tapas.
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KM's PB:
Page 62:
Though I envied David and Fiona their sea view...
KM its an Ocean. You were not on the Clyde or 'Pool.
@)(++(* never a missed opportunity to put the boot in!
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@)(++(* never a missed opportunity to put the boot in!
?
I have posted up comments from BO, the Moyes and KM to give some idea about the views from balconies and what could potentially be seen from PF's balcony.
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KM's PB:
Page 62:
Though I envied David and Fiona their sea view...
KM its an Ocean. You were not on the Clyde or 'Pool.
Maybe she thought the Algarve was in the Mediterranean, many people do, I believe
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?
I have posted up comments from BO, the Moyes and KM to give some idea about the views from balconies and what could potentially be seen from PF's balcony.
What is it you’re not understanding about my post? Were you not trying to paint Kate as a thicko for using the term sea view and not ocean view (as if anyone apart from those who loathe the woman actually cares)?
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“most have pool, garden or sea view”
https://luzoceanclub.com/accommodation-algarve/
The owners of the Ocean Club probably think that blue thing out there is the Med too, ignorant beasts.
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I'm pleased to say I've been able to develop my theory/suspects further. John and Myster have been updated accordingly.
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I'm pleased to say I've been able to develop my theory/suspects further. John and Myster have been updated accordingly.
I'm wondering if I should share with a so-called 'sceptic' to get their view? Are there any 'sceptics' out there who would like to consider my theory/suspects?
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I'm wondering if I should share with a so-called 'sceptic' to get their view? Are there any 'sceptics' out there who would like to consider my theory/suspects?
Yes, me!! I’m very sceptical indeed (that you have id’ed Madeleine’s abductor correctly).
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I'm pleased to say I've been able to develop my theory/suspects further. John and Myster have been updated accordingly.
I'm 100% sure it has no credibility...
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I'm wondering if I should share with a so-called 'sceptic' to get their view? Are there any 'sceptics' out there who would like to consider my theory/suspects?
ooh, ooh, me, me!
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ooh, ooh, me, me!
I asked first, get in line.
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I asked first, get in line.
.....ahh crap.
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Yes, me!! I’m very sceptical indeed (that you have id’ed Madeleine’s abductor correctly).
Unfortunately you bat for the wrong side!
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I'm 100% sure it has no credibility...
I would prefer to hear the view of a 'sceptic' having had an opportunity to review the info.
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I'm wondering if I should share with a so-called 'sceptic' to get their view? Are there any 'sceptics' out there who would like to consider my theory/suspects?
What you on about? They already know and have given their view!
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Davel's the biggest sceptic of all,he doesn't trust the files because of the thrice translation,so the default position must be sceptical. (&^&
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Unfortunately you bat for the wrong side!
Then it looks like I'm in a pool of one all of a sudden.
However, for balance, and to really wind VS up, I suggest you run it past G-Unit.
Failing that, you'll find me to be a balanced, rational, non-judgemental sociopath, with impeccable discretion and integrity.
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I'm wondering if I should share with a so-called 'sceptic' to get their view? Are there any 'sceptics' out there who would like to consider my theory/suspects?
From what you have said so far you have chosen someone at random and then created a theory around them imo. I wouldn't mind seeing any evidence you have which justifies your choice of suspect/s.
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Then it looks like I'm in a pool of one all of a sudden.
However, for balance, and to really wind VS up, I suggest you run it past G-Unit.
Failing that, you'll find me to be a balanced, rational, non-judgemental sociopath, with impeccable discretion and integrity.
G-Unit has indicated in the past she isn't interested.
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So do the 'sceptics' have any objections with The General reviewing my theory/suspects and then providing the forum with feedback?
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So do the 'sceptics' have any objections with The General reviewing my theory/suspects and then providing the forum with feedback?
I have no objections.
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I have no objections.
Good.
What about other sceptics? Barrier, MistakenIdentity are you happy that The General will carry out an objective review?
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Good.
What about other sceptics? Barrier, MistakenIdentity are you happy that The General will carry out an objective review?
why dont you just send it to the general...whats your problem
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Good.
What about other sceptics? Barrier, MistakenIdentity are you happy that The General will carry out an objective review?
Get on with it woman. 8(0(*
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Then it looks like I'm in a pool of one all of a sudden.
However, for balance, and to really wind VS up, I suggest you run it past G-Unit.
Failing that, you'll find me to be a balanced, rational, non-judgemental sociopath, with impeccable discretion and integrity.
Yeah, ask G-Unit. She da best baddest sceptic in the whole wide world.
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The General will just rip the piss out of your theory. Mercilessly. If he doesn’t I’ll be majorly disappointed.
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Yeah, ask G-Unit. She da best baddest sceptic in the whole wide world.
Now does that mean I'm the best greatest sceptic or does it mean I'm the best, worst sceptic? The former says the same thing twice and the latter is contradictory.
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Now does that mean I'm the best greatest sceptic or does it mean I'm the best, worst sceptic? The former says the same thing twice and the latter is contradictory.
again its a language problem...eevn with no translation...bad can mean good
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again its a language problem...eevn with no translation...bad can mean good
You're sick.
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You're sick.
precisely...the sickest baddest bro there is
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Good.
What about other sceptics? Barrier, MistakenIdentity are you happy that The General will carry out an objective review?
Hi Holly, I have no objection, I would like if you would allow the General to share it with some of us trusted ones.
I am sure he will give a good sound response.
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Now does that mean I'm the best greatest sceptic or does it mean I'm the best, worst sceptic? The former says the same thing twice and the latter is contradictory.
Thorn in side comes to mind for you G- regarding the Supporters. Keep up the good baddest work!
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Hi Holly, I have no objection, I would like if you would allow the General to share it with some of us trusted ones.
I am sure he will give a good sound response.
Dont worry I can share it with you. Holly beleives that maddie was abducted by Mrs Fenns neice ...Carole Tranter...because she felt she good give maddie a better life. She opened the window to make it look like a burglary and the dogs reacted to some old furniture....what a brilliant theory
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Thorn in side comes to mind for you G- regarding the Supporters. Keep up the good baddest work!
Those who don't know what they're doing shouldn't use street slang. It's right up there with Dad dancing imo.
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Those who don't know what they're doing shouldn't use street slang. It's right up there with Dad dancing imo.
No need to admonish Miss Taken, she’s on your side, innit bro.
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The General it is then 8(>((
I'll endeavor to forward the info tomorrow.
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The General it is then 8(>((
I'll endeavor to forward the info tomorrow.
why the delay...surely you can just forward what youve sent to John
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why the delay...surely you can just forward what youve sent to John
Patience is a virgin virtue, Davros.
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why the delay...surely you can just forward what youve sent to John
I've just The General a pm asking him about receiving info? In any event I'm currently out and about on my mobile and will send tomorrow from my desk top.
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Patience is a virgin virtue, Davros.
procrastination isnt
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procrastination isnt
Procrastination is the thief of thyme.
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No need to admonish Miss Taken, she’s on your side, innit bro.
My, it's getting worse. Calling women bro is just not done.
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My, it's getting worse. Calling women bro is just not done.
Am I bovvered though? Look at my face. Is it bovvered? Arks me If I'm bovvered! Look, face, bovvered?
8)--))
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Am I bovvered though? Look at my face. Is it bovvered? Arks me If I'm bovvered! Look, face, bovvered?
8)--))
Don't you start! @)(++(*
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I've just The General a pm asking him about receiving info? In any event I'm currently out and about on my mobile and will send tomorrow from my desk top.
I see the generals online...has he received his information pack
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My, it's getting worse. Calling women bro is just not done.
Sorry not sorry Ms Cheung.
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I see the generals online...has he received his information pack
Does it matter.
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I’m lolling at the General being relied on for a serious analysis of Holly’s Theory. Should be a hoot!
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Does it matter.
it matters as much..or as little....as any post on here
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it matters as much..or as little....as any post on here
Seems as if you're desperate to know.
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Seems as if you're desperate to know.
seems to you...your opinion.
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I’m lolling at the General being relied on for a serious analysis of Holly’s Theory. Should be a hoot!
Why's that then? What are you insinuating?
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Why's that then? What are you insinuating?
I thought you had no interest in my opinion.
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Seems as if you're desperate to know.
Exactly! why bother posting "I see the generals online...has he received his information pack"
like it has anything to do with him when Holly and the General agree to something.
From G "Why's that then? What are you insinuating?" We can do what he does and make it up- VS thinks the General will run amok with a harsh rant and post it on the forum for him and his cohorts to gloat and make fun of.
I don't think that is what the General will do. He is rather intelligent,and capable of high level debate when the thread calls. Most threads contents are lowered by the snipes and goading from the usual suspects, which is a shame. And a disgrace to the memory of a little innocent girl who disappeared.
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Exactly! why bother posting "I see the generals online...has he received his information pack"
like it has anything to do with him when Holly and the General agree to something.
From G "Why's that then? What are you insinuating?" We can do what he does and make it up- VS thinks the General will run amok with a harsh rant and post it on the forum for him and his cohorts to gloat and make fun of.
I don't think that is what the General will do. He is rather intelligent,and capable of high level debate when the thread calls. Most threads contents are lowered by the snipes and goading from the usual suspects, which is a shame. And a disgrace to the memory of a little innocent girl who disappeared.
Sanctimonious, emotive, goading bullcrap, imo.
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I thought you had no interest in my opinion.
I have no interest in your opinions about the McCann case. I was just wondering what you were insinuating about another member.
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I have no interest in your opinions about the McCann case. I was just wondering what you were insinuating about another member.
I wasn’t insinuating anything, are you trying to cause trouble?
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Exactly! why bother posting "I see the generals online...has he received his information pack"
like it has anything to do with him when Holly and the General agree to something.
From G "Why's that then? What are you insinuating?" We can do what he does and make it up- VS thinks the General will run amok with a harsh rant and post it on the forum for him and his cohorts to gloat and make fun of.
I don't think that is what the General will do. He is rather intelligent,and capable of high level debate when the thread calls. Most threads contents are lowered by the snipes and goading from the usual suspects, which is a shame. And a disgrace to the memory of a little innocent girl who disappeared.
Im free to comment on any post made here....those are the rules
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I have no interest in your opinions about the McCann case. I was just wondering what you were insinuating about another member.
It is what they do. try to be sly try to be clever just look foolish! ^*&&
It would be nice if they used proper grammar- some of the cr@p may may sense.
I have asked Holly if she will allow the General to share his outcome with me.
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It is what they do. try to be sly try to be clever just look foolish! ^*&&
It would be nice if they used proper grammar- some of the cr@p may may sense.
I have asked Holly if she will allow the General to share his outcome with me.
what does ...may may sense mean...in english
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what does ...may may sense mean...in english
Exactly! you noticed something missing? Great start.
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It is what they do. try to be sly try to be clever just look foolish! ^*&&
It would be nice if they used proper grammar- some of the cr@p may may sense.
I have asked Holly if she will allow the General to share his outcome with me.
I'm quite happy for the General and Holly to discuss her theory between themselves if they wish. If they speak publicly there will only be ridicule from certain quarters imo. Silence is golden.
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I'm quite happy for the General and Holly to discuss her theory between themselves if they wish. If they speak publicly there will only be ridicule from certain quarters imo. Silence is golden.
Her solution was ridiculed by Myster....who she expected to support it. How did you describe her theory.....not very complimentary as I recall...your verdict on hollys theory..
From what you have said so far you have chosen someone at random and then created a theory around them imo
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I'm quite happy for the General and Holly to discuss her theory between themselves if they wish. If they speak publicly there will only be ridicule from certain quarters imo. Silence is golden.
In the words of the great philosopher Stuart Goddard “ridicule is nothing to be scared of”.
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Her solution was ridiculed by Myster....who she expected to support it. How did you describe her theory.....not very complimentary as I recall...your verdict on hollys theory..
From what you have said so far you have chosen someone at random and then created a theory around them imo
At least it is not a nasty snipe- like some have typed.
It is a fair comment, and Holly is very gracious to have her theory looked at and commented on,by who's opinion she values. And she included G in that group.
I am sure Holly will not cry if the response is not glowing.
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In the words of the great philosopher Stuart Goddard “ridicule is nothing to be scared of”.
And Adam Ant.
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And Adam Ant.
Stuart Goddard IS Adam Ant.
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At least it is not a nasty snipe- like some have typed.
It is a fair comment, and Holly is very gracious to have her theory looked at and commented on,by who's opinion she values. And she included G in that group.
I am sure Holly will not cry if the response is not glowing.
I think you've missed the boat... Holly's theory has already been discussed and as you can see from gunits comments the responses without exception almost have been extremely negative
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I think you've missed the boat... Holly's theory has already been discussed and as you can see from gunits comments the responses without exception almost have been extremely negative
Holly has said she had UPDATED her theory. Move along...
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Holly has said she had UPDATED her theory. Move along...
It's still Carole Tranmer carrying out an abduction