Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2017, 06:12:04 PM
Title: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 25, 2017, 06:12:04 PM
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Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 26, 2017, 09:58:58 AM
A reasonable attempt by CMTV to review the events surrounding the disappearance ten years on.
One point which stands out and which I have never seen reported previously is the claim by Amaral that Kate phoned Gerry at 10pm (timestamp 52.30). Amaral makes the valid point that according to the tapas group witnesses they were both sat at a table in the tapas bar just before 10pm so how could this be?
Is there a record of these mobile calls in the files?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on May 26, 2017, 11:40:53 AM
I've just watched some (not all) of the Goncalo interview video.
Jeez what a crock of distorted facts, wild exaggeration, lies by omission and blatant cherry picking.
It's 'criminal' IMO that everything he said went completely unchallenged. Anyone who knew anything about the case could have wiped the floor with him.
Judging by the way so much evidence had to be twisted and warped (or deliberately never mentioned - which is just as bad) to suit his own agenda - then thank goodness Kate never answered any of the 48 questions. I have no doubt that a similar job would have been done on anything she had said.
All that did IMO was to give an insight into the methods used by some PJ officers to convince the public - and no doubt the courts into believing they had genuinely proved someone's guilt.
I'm disgusted at the blatant dishonesty of it all.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 26, 2017, 11:45:40 AM
I've just watched some (not all) of the Goncalo interview video.
Jeez what a crock of distorted facts, wild exaggeration, lies by omission and blatant cherry picking.
It's 'criminal' IMO that everything he said went completely unchallenged. Anyone who knew anything about the case could have wiped the floor with him.
Judging by the way so much evidence had to be twisted and warped (or deliberately never mentioned - which is just as bad) to suit his own agenda - then thank goodness Kate never answered any of the 48 questions. I have no doubt that a similar job would have been done on anything she had said.
All that did IMO was to give an insight into the methods used by some PJ officers to convince the public - and no doubt the courts into believing they had genuinely proved someone's guilt.
I'm disgusted at the blatant dishonesty of it all.
AIMHO
Perhaps Benice, you would like to list the 'inaccuracies' in the video, and then they can be discussed.
As you are making allegations, you do need to back it up.
I haven't watched the video yet, but I will later today.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 26, 2017, 12:00:31 PM
I've just watched some (not all) of the Goncalo interview video.
Jeez what a crock of distorted facts, wild exaggeration, lies by omission and blatant cherry picking.
It's 'criminal' IMO that everything he said went completely unchallenged. Anyone who knew anything about the case could have wiped the floor with him.
Judging by the way so much evidence had to be twisted and warped (or deliberately never mentioned - which is just as bad) to suit his own agenda - then thank goodness Kate never answered any of the 48 questions. I have no doubt that a similar job would have been done on anything she had said.
All that did IMO was to give an insight into the methods used by some PJ officers to convince the public - and no doubt the courts into believing they had genuinely proved someone's guilt.
I'm disgusted at the blatant dishonesty of it all.
AIMHO
It is his opinion based on his knowledge of the investigation as coordinator from day one.
I agree he has made a number of deductions and offered several scenarios to explain what happened to Madeleine but for a few minor discrepancies the facts as related by him are for the most part reasonably accurate. There were unexplained discrepancies in the versions related by the parents, discrepancies which would allow any experienced detective to ask a lot more questions.
Those he related included Gerry changing his story as to which apartment door he used in the 9am check, the Tanner encounter with Jez and Gerry and Kate's changing story of how she found Madeleine gone.
The reference to the 200 cases in which cadaver dog Eddie was claimed to have been involved was a silly error.
I don't personally hold with his parental involvement theories but he did suggest that Madeleine could have followed Gerry out after his 9pm check and thereafter got into trouble. Gerry and Jez chatting and laughing just outside the apartment could very well have been the trigger which mobilised Madeleine given what we know about previous evenings.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2017, 02:06:11 PM
A reasonable attempt by CMTV to review the events surrounding the disappearance ten years on.
One point which stands out and which I have never seen reported previously is the claim by Amaral that Kate phoned Gerry at 10pm (timestamp 52.30). Amaral makes the valid point that according to the tapas group witnesses they were both sat at a table in the tapas bar just before 10pm so how could this be?
Is there a record of these mobile calls in the files?
I can't find anything in the files that would corroborate that for the moment.
Unless someone else has, I'll file it in a rather large (vertical) folder.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on May 26, 2017, 02:31:25 PM
I can't find anything in the files that would corroborate that for the moment.
Unless someone else has, I'll file it in a rather large (vertical) folder.
Curiously that alleged phone call didn't warrant a mention in his book - probably because it could be easily disproved & therefore libellous.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on May 26, 2017, 04:45:29 PM
Of more importance it can't be said for all their efforts that SY have put his theory to bed,no matter how hard they try they just cant find the alleged dastardly abductor,IMO and all that.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 26, 2017, 05:37:38 PM
Of more importance it can't be said for all their efforts that SY have put his theory to bed,no matter how hard they try they just cant find the alleged dastardly abductor,IMO and all that.
Amaral's theory was put to bed yonks ago, not least by PJ officers who worked on the shelved enquiry.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2017, 05:40:10 PM
Amaral says it was unprecedented for the British Ambassador to attend . True; it's the Consul's responsibility.
He says Gerry said at first that he checked the children through the locked front door using his key. True (and it's not a translation error therefore)
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2017, 06:08:46 PM
Amaral says it was unprecedented for the British Ambassador to attend . True; it's the Consul's responsibility.
He says Gerry said at first that he checked the children through the locked front door using his key. True (and it's not a translation error therefore)
We have an entire thread on the front / back door debate. IMO, it IS quite likely a translation / lost-in-confusion issue. Gerry was the first to be interviewed after very little sleep, by a police officer coming to grips with the situation and who took the bare minimum of notes, with whoever they could grab at that time of the morning to serve as an interpreter. The officer in question doesn't appear to have been one of the ones at the scene the previous evening and I can't find any indication that he understood the layout of the flat.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on May 26, 2017, 07:15:08 PM
We have an entire thread on the front / back door debate. IMO, it IS quite likely a translation / lost-in-confusion issue. Gerry was the first to be interviewed after very little sleep, by a police officer coming to grips with the situation and who took the bare minimum of notes, with whoever they could grab at that time of the morning to serve as an interpreter. The officer in question doesn't appear to have been one of the ones at the scene the previous evening and I can't find any indication that he understood the layout of the flat.
It was known by an English local that the patio door was unlocked & the reason for that by the time an article was published in the Express on 5th May 2007 - and Kate & Gerry spent most of 4th May at the police station. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic247.html
*snipped* Praia da Luz resident Mark McCarrick said the girl might have simply walked out of her room.
“The parents left the door ajar so they could keep going over and looking at her,” he said. “We are hoping that because the door was open, she just walked out.”
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2017, 07:37:27 PM
We have an entire thread on the front / back door debate. IMO, it IS quite likely a translation / lost-in-confusion issue. Gerry was the first to be interviewed after very little sleep, by a police officer coming to grips with the situation and who took the bare minimum of notes, with whoever they could grab at that time of the morning to serve as an interpreter. The officer in question doesn't appear to have been one of the ones at the scene the previous evening and I can't find any indication that he understood the layout of the flat.
No matter how many excuses you offer or how many aspersions you cast, Gerry said he and Kate unlocked a door to get into 5A.
In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked,
At about 22.00 it was his wife Kate who went to check on the children. She entered the apartment by the door using the key http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2017, 08:02:50 PM
We have an entire thread on the front / back door debate. IMO, it IS quite likely a translation / lost-in-confusion issue. Gerry was the first to be interviewed after very little sleep, by a police officer coming to grips with the situation and who took the bare minimum of notes, with whoever they could grab at that time of the morning to serve as an interpreter. The officer in question doesn't appear to have been one of the ones at the scene the previous evening and I can't find any indication that he understood the layout of the flat.
No matter how many excuses you offer or how many aspersions you cast, Gerry said he and Kate unlocked a door to get into 5A.
In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked,
At about 22.00 it was his wife Kate who went to check on the children. She entered the apartment by the door using the key http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
I agree that that is what his initial statement STATES (but which was clarified in the subsequent, more in-depth, interview). However, my point is that there may well have been a translation / lost-in-confusion issue that simply got stated as fact.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2017, 08:28:54 PM
I agree that that is what his initial statement STATES (but which was clarified in the subsequent, more in-depth, interview). However, my point is that there may well have been a translation / lost-in-confusion issue that simply got stated as fact.
It's quite amusing the lengths that people go to in order to 'explain' this statement by Gerry McCann.
Translation issue? He said it, she translated it, she read it back to him in English, he signed it.
Confusion issue? Who was confused?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2017, 08:44:38 PM
It's quite amusing the lengths that people go to in order to 'explain' this statement by Gerry McCann.
Translation issue? He said it, she translated it, she read it back to him in English, he signed it.
Confusion issue? Who was confused?
Several of us debated this at length in some thread or other ages ago.
Perhaps a point we could agree on: if the interview had been recorded (or even a reasonably accurate verbatim report), it would be easier to establish what was actually said as opposed to what got written up in a chaotic situation.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 26, 2017, 08:49:14 PM
It's quite amusing the lengths that people go to in order to 'explain' this statement by Gerry McCann.
Translation issue? He said it, she translated it, she read it back to him in English, he signed it.
Confusion issue? Who was confused?
For that system to work accurately a different interpreter would have to read it back in English. If it is the same person the same mistake is repeated twice.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2017, 09:00:06 PM
Several of us debated this at length in some thread or other ages ago.
Perhaps a point we could agree on: if the interview had been recorded (or even a reasonably accurate verbatim report), it would be easier to establish what was actually said as opposed to what got written up in a chaotic situation.
Not for me. I accept that what is in the statements is what was said. Why Gerry McCann said it I don't know because he didn't explain, but he admitted saying it.
accept that the curtains were drawn open at 10 pm too, as testified by both parents. It is for Kate McCann to explain why she later changed her story and said they were closed.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2017, 09:02:14 PM
Not for me. I accept that what is in the statements is what was said. Why Gerry McCann said it I don't know because he didn't explain, but he admitted saying it.
accept that the curtains were drawn open at 10 pm too, as testified by both parents. It is for Kate McCann to explain why she later changed her story and said they were closed.
Where did she say that they were closed when she discovered that M was missing?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 26, 2017, 09:02:21 PM
Curiously that alleged phone call didn't warrant a mention in his book - probably because it could be easily disproved & therefore libellous.
The McCanns were functioning enough to delete mobile records but apparently not functioning enough to let the PJ know about this hidden information. Do you think when the PJ found no records before the disappearance they would be naive to believe they hadn't used their mobiles all week?
Gerald McCann called his wife four times between 23.14 and 23.52.
So Gerry was not at the apartment with Kate at that time. The PJ had arrived prior to these series of calls so they would be wondering where the hell Gerry is when he said he stayed in the apartment.
After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
At 23.40 he called his sister ' Trish Cameron and at 23.52 -Janet Kennedy.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2017, 09:03:24 PM
For that system to work accurately a different interpreter would have to read it back in English. If it is the same person the same mistake is repeated twice.
Did Gerry have his fingers in his ears when she kept mentioning keys then?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 26, 2017, 09:12:51 PM
Gerry admits in his second statement that he changed it from front key door to rear patio door.
"Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2017, 09:25:12 PM
Did Gerry have his fingers in his ears when she kept mentioning keys then?
Again, if there had been a recorded interview, it would be easy to establish what was actually said (by all three). That is not the case. Even a cross on a scribbled drawing could have clarified it, if he'd been asked.
There is no indication that I've found that the police officer had a prior grasp on the layout of the flat, let alone the lady serving as an interpreter. It would be perfectly normal to jot down notes as they went along (one door requires a key to enter) and they got mixed up as to which was considered to be the back or the front door.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2017, 09:27:23 PM
Gerry admits in his second statement that he changed it from front key door to rear patio door.
"Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Did he change his mind, or was there some confusion in the initial statement as written up?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 26, 2017, 09:44:58 PM
The McCanns were functioning enough to delete mobile records but apparently not functioning enough to let the PJ know about this hidden information. Do you think when the PJ found no records before the disappearance they would be naive to believe they hadn't used their mobiles all week?
Gerald McCann called his wife four times between 23.14 and 23.52.
So Gerry was not at the apartment with Kate at that time. The PJ had arrived prior to these series of calls so they would be wondering where the hell Gerry is when he said he stayed in the apartment.
After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
At 23.40 he called his sister ' Trish Cameron and at 23.52 -Janet Kennedy.
Gerry called Kate twice. Those calls were double recorded. From memory, the first was at 23.17.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 26, 2017, 09:54:27 PM
Perhaps Benice, you would like to list the 'inaccuracies' in the video, and then they can be discussed.
As you are making allegations, you do need to back it up.
I haven't watched the video yet, but I will later today.
Congratulations on becoming a Moderator Stephen I know you will be very balanced, and respected by many even some supporters . 8((()*/ 8)--))
Thanks for posting this Pathy .
There are a few discrepancies Stephen you will pick them up from the video. I don't buy into the child at the feet of a woman being cremated which he seems to want to give credence to, if I heard that correctly. I don't agree with some of his 'thinking' calling calpol a sedative or anti histamine being a part to blame for something, but I do get the impression he does want to find out what happened to Little Maddie.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 26, 2017, 11:08:22 PM
It is his opinion based on his knowledge of the investigation as coordinator from day one.
I agree he has made a number of deductions and offered several scenarios to explain what happened to Madeleine but for a few minor discrepancies the facts as related by him are for the most part reasonably accurate. There were unexplained discrepancies in the versions related by the parents, discrepancies which would allow any experienced detective to ask a lot more questions.
Those he related included Gerry changing his story as to which apartment door he used in the 9am check, the Tanner encounter with Jez and Gerry and Kate's changing story of how she found Madeleine gone.
The reference to the 200 cases in which cadaver dog Eddie was claimed to have been involved was a silly error.
I don't personally hold with his parental involvement theories but he did suggest that Madeleine could have followed Gerry out after his 9pm check and thereafter got into trouble. Gerry and Jez chatting and laughing just outside the apartment could very well have been the trigger which mobilised Madeleine given what we know about previous evenings.
I agree John.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2017, 06:53:25 AM
'The curtains of the bedroom which were drawn, closed' she says, with arm actions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhACS6ck-Dw
Yes but it is the net curtains only that are blowing in the breeze.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 27, 2017, 08:02:44 AM
Amaral seems to be determined that the cadaver carried in the Scenic was frozen (and thawing). So I'd say a body in a freezer is really hidden. I was going to see the connection of the timing of the 3 men carrying a bag into the church and the cadaver in wagon story. Did someone note the dates? With the dialogue in Portuguese and subtitles I find it rather difficult to go through the entire video.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2017, 08:03:37 AM
Yes but it is the net curtains only that are blowing in the breeze.
If you are referring to the video made by/for the McCanns yes they are. Is that because no matter how hard they tried they couldn't get the heavier curtains to move, I wonder? I think you'd need a gale for that, not a breeze. Listen to what she says, not what a made-up video shows you.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 27, 2017, 08:16:17 AM
If you are referring to the video made by/for the McCanns yes they are. Is that because no matter how hard they tried they couldn't get the heavier curtains to move, I wonder? I think you'd need a gale for that, not a breeze. Listen to what she says, not what a made-up video shows you.
Net curtains blowing in the breeze is good enough for me.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2017, 08:29:19 AM
Amaral seems to be determined that the cadaver carried in the Scenic was frozen (and thawing). So I'd say a body in a freezer is really hidden. I was going to see the connection of the timing of the 3 men carrying a bag into the church and the cadaver in wagon story. Did someone note the dates? With the dialogue in Portuguese and subtitles I find it rather difficult to go through the entire video.
Amaral seems to be convinced that Madeleine's DNA was in the car, and his opinion is based on the first report from the FSS. That's the reason why he theorises about a body being stored. Is that first report in the files? I'm not sure.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2017, 08:31:19 AM
So you want something that was physically impossible without a tornado outside.
I don't want anything. I am listening to what Kate McCann says and she says the curtains were drawn. Nobody 'draws' net curtains because the point of nets is that they remain closed all the time.
The patio door curtains were also closed, so Kate's story of glancing behind to see if she'd left the patio door open wouldn't have told her anything - the curtain would have hidden the door.
Regarding the apartment: windows were closed but she doesn't know if they were locked. Veranda window closed but not locked, curtains closed......
The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2017, 09:54:33 AM
interesting video....i think it proves beyond doubt what an absolute idiot amaral is and Im sure he will support my freedom of speech in saying so...anyone who believes his rubbish is severely deluded
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2017, 10:09:34 AM
interesting video....i think it proves beyond doubt what an absolute idiot amaral is and Im sure he will support my freedom of speech in saying so...anyone who believes his rubbish is severely deluded
Interesting post. A man who references the statements is an 'absolute idiot' but others who clearly haven't examined the files are applauded. Obviously what matters to some is the conclusion reached rather than the evidence examined;
Horrocks has some credibility and has been to Luz He says an abduction is possible and fairly easy That seems a reasonable conclusion http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8185.510
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 27, 2017, 10:11:40 AM
interesting video....i think it proves beyond doubt what an absolute idiot amaral is and Im sure he will support my freedom of speech in saying so...anyone who believes his rubbish is severely deluded
It might be rubbish and then again much of it might not be rubbish. Many of the observations he makes are perfectly sound in investigatory terms, he is entitled to espouse a view on that basis.
Must I remind you that the McCanns and their friends were afforded every opportunity to cooperate with the Portuguese enquiry and even after it had been archived the parents could have asked for it to be reopened. The Portuguese Attorney General made this very clear in his final report.
In reality they couldn't leave Portugal soon enough despite promising Madeleine that they would not go home without her. They had sufficient funds thanks to a generous public which would have allowed them to maintain a base in Praia da Luz in order to pursue the investigation and encourage the local police but that did not happen. Instead of developing a relationship with the local community which could have led to further lines of enquiry they alienated them.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
It might be rubbish and then again much of it might not be rubbish. Many of the observations he makes are perfectly sound in investigatory terms, he is entitled to espouse a view on that basis.
Must I remind you that the McCanns and their friends were afforded every opportunity to cooperate with the Portuguese enquiry and even after it had been archived the parents could have asked for it to be reopened. The Portuguese Attorney General made this very clear in his final report.
In reality they couldn't leave Portugal soon enough despite promising Madeleine that they would not go home without her.
there is too much that is easily provable to be blatantly wrong...the man has no credibility
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on May 27, 2017, 10:18:02 AM
I don't want anything. I am listening to what Kate McCann says and she says the curtains were drawn. Nobody 'draws' net curtains because the point of nets is that they remain closed all the time.
The patio door curtains were also closed, so Kate's story of glancing behind to see if she'd left the patio door open wouldn't have told her anything - the curtain would have hidden the door.
Regarding the apartment: windows were closed but she doesn't know if they were locked. Veranda window closed but not locked, curtains closed......
The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
"Blinds and curtains" could be the "nets and the drapes" drawn. The shutters may not have been mentioned in that sentence.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 27, 2017, 10:35:07 AM
Perhaps Benice, you would like to list the 'inaccuracies' in the video, and then they can be discussed.
As you are making allegations, you do need to back it up.
I haven't watched the video yet, but I will later today.
To begin with.
What a big deal Amaral makes in the video over which door Gerry used to go into 5A! He even walks the reporter round the route to show how much longer it was not to go in via the patio doors and to emphasise what a big 'lie' Gerry had told.
He omits to mention the initial confusion/misunderstandings between the PJ and witnesses when first taking statements that was caused because some people referred to the patio doors as the front door and some referred to them as the back door. This confusion is mentioned by the UK police officer taking a rog statement from JT.
He omits to mention that Gerry corrected that error days later in his very next statement - ( I presume after he had read through it in English). Instead he gives the impression that the PJ found out about it later - without any assistance from Gerry.
He omits to mention Gerry's reason for changing his statement - or explain why that reason was not recorded. One would think that if this was the massively big deal that Amaral was now claiming it to be to that reporter - then surely Gerry's explanation for why he changed his statement would have been of extreme importance to the PJ and be recorded in detail. But not a word. Why not?
This is a typical example of 'Lying by omission' IMO. This is when no actual lie is told - but instead vital facts are deliberately withheld from a 'story' in order to con people into believing what they definitely would not believe if those vital facts had been included.
I notice that the distance from the Tapas to the little gate at 5a has shrunk from the 100 metres in his book - to between 40 and 50 metres when he wanted to impress on the reporter how 'strange' it was for Gerry to go the long way round when the back door was so close.
IMO Amaral took advantage of the fact that there is no record of what Gerry's reasons were for correcting his first statement. Just as he did with JT when (on his instructions) because no statement was taken from her to prove otherwise, he claimed she had formally identified RM.
I cannot believe anyone would think that Amaral's description of which door Gerry used was a fair one - by any stretch of the imagination.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 11:57:42 AM
So, confusion over prepositions to describe 'front' and 'back', and in any event, who on earth, on holiday, remembers what door they entered or exited a building on a particular occasion at a given moment?
It all pales by comparison with Amaral's 'memory lapses' in forgetting what Mark Harrison's role in the investigation was, or what Stuart Prior did (or did not) say ....
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on May 27, 2017, 12:03:35 PM
So, confusion over prepositions to describe 'front' and 'back', and in any event, who on earth, on holiday, remembers what door they entered or exited a building on a particular occasion at a given moment?
When your daughter is alleged to have been abducted wouldn't it be of no surprise to have it indelibly etched on the brain.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2017, 12:14:03 PM
What a big deal Amaral makes in the video over which door Gerry used to go into 5A! He even walks the reporter round the route to show how much longer it was not to go in via the patio doors and to emphasise what a big 'lie' Gerry had told.
He omits to mention the initial confusion/misunderstandings between the PJ and witnesses when first taking statements that was caused because some people referred to the patio doors as the front door and some referred to them as the back door. This confusion is mentioned by the UK police officer taking a rog statement from JT.
He omits to mention that Gerry corrected that error days later in his very next statement - ( I presume after he had read through it in English). Instead he gives the impression that the PJ found out about it later - without any assistance from Gerry.
He omits to mention Gerry's reason for changing his statement - or explain why that reason was not recorded. One would think that if this was the massively big deal that Amaral was now claiming it to be to that reporter - then surely Gerry's explanation for why he changed his statement would have been of extreme importance to the PJ and be recorded in detail. But not a word. Why not?
This is a typical example of 'Lying by omission' IMO. This is when no actual lie is told - but instead vital facts are deliberately withheld from a 'story' in order to con people into believing what they definitely would not believe if those vital facts had been included.
I notice that the distance from the Tapas to the little gate at 5a has shrunk from the 100 metres in his book - to between 40 and 50 metres when he wanted to impress on the reporter how 'strange' it was for Gerry to go the long way round when the back door was so close.
IMO Amaral took advantage of the fact that there is no record of what Gerry's reasons were for correcting his first statement. Just as he did with JT when (on his instructions) because no statement was taken from her to prove otherwise, he claimed she had formally identified RM.
I cannot believe anyone would think that Amaral's description of which door Gerry used was a fair one - by any stretch of the imagination.
AIMHO
As a reminder Benice, people can decide for themselves what to believe or disbelieve.
As to real facts in this case, there are many opinions and in reality very little to substantiate what happened.
Amaral, and I have said before, did make mistakes,but then so did the McCann's. The latter being why these matters are being discussed on the forum.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2017, 12:30:46 PM
Posters are reminded that when they give opinions, they make that quite clear, and not to imply that they are facts.
Likewise, implying that anyone who states other posters are 'blind' to the facts, should remember that kind of comment is goading.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 12:37:02 PM
When your daughter is alleged to have been abducted wouldn't it be of no surprise to have it indelibly etched on the brain.
The abduction is no doubt indelibly etched on the brains of both Kate and Gerry; details about what door the exited or entered in departing from or arriving at the apartment at given points (unsurprisingly!) less so.
Amaral's 'memory lapses' in recalling who, of key investigators on the ground, did (or did not) so or do certain things is far more significant.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on May 27, 2017, 12:41:47 PM
The abduction is no doubt indelibly etched on the brains of both Kate and Gerry; details about what door the exited or entered in departing from or arriving at the apartment at given points (unsurprisingly!) less so.
Fair enough,so which is the correct version,the front door or the patio door, remember as time went on and no sign of Madeleine its not unfair to surmise that the second statement would be the confused one lack of sleep and the stress,imo of course. Oh I forgot to ask what abduction?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2017, 12:42:58 PM
The abduction is no doubt indelibly etched on the brains of both Kate and Gerry; details about what door the exited or entered in departing from or arriving at the apartment at given points (unsurprisingly!) less so.
Amaral's 'memory lapses' in recalling who, of key investigators on the ground, did (or did not) so or do certain things is far more significant.
I suggest you adjust your post.
'Abduction' is not a fact.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on May 27, 2017, 01:08:18 PM
Did he saying thing different than what is in the book?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2017, 01:11:21 PM
how can anyone take him seriously
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2017, 01:16:18 PM
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 02:54:05 PM
Who said the McCanns could not, reasonably, have been expected to foresee an abduction of any of their children?
Who is Amaral, to gainsay Mark Harrison, who concluded his final report by saying that if Madeleine was dead, it was most likely her remains had been thrown into the sea?
Amaral misattributes to Harrison that Harrison said Madeleine was definitely buried somewhere.
In fact Harrison explicitly ruled out burial.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2017, 03:44:47 PM
There is much made of the language barrier when supporters are defending the McCanns. Perhaps it might be acknowledged that such things can work both ways.
Amaral describes in his book how Harrison showed them a video of Grime's dogs in training and at work 'in over 200 investigations'. Did Harrison verbally refer to over 200 investigations? We don't know what he said when promoting the use of the dogs, do we? He may have said the same as Grime below and been misunderstood.
In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Criminal case searches are not the same as criminal cases. The dogs were involved in one case in Luz, but carried out many searches.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 27, 2017, 03:47:24 PM
I am gobsmacked by the biased innuendo in that video. I think I'll leave t at that.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2017, 03:54:45 PM
What a big deal Amaral makes in the video over which door Gerry used to go into 5A! He even walks the reporter round the route to show how much longer it was not to go in via the patio doors and to emphasise what a big 'lie' Gerry had told.
He omits to mention the initial confusion/misunderstandings between the PJ and witnesses when first taking statements that was caused because some people referred to the patio doors as the front door and some referred to them as the back door. This confusion is mentioned by the UK police officer taking a rog statement from JT.
He omits to mention that Gerry corrected that error days later in his very next statement - ( I presume after he had read through it in English). Instead he gives the impression that the PJ found out about it later - without any assistance from Gerry.
He omits to mention Gerry's reason for changing his statement - or explain why that reason was not recorded. One would think that if this was the massively big deal that Amaral was now claiming it to be to that reporter - then surely Gerry's explanation for why he changed his statement would have been of extreme importance to the PJ and be recorded in detail. But not a word. Why not?
This is a typical example of 'Lying by omission' IMO. This is when no actual lie is told - but instead vital facts are deliberately withheld from a 'story' in order to con people into believing what they definitely would not believe if those vital facts had been included.
I notice that the distance from the Tapas to the little gate at 5a has shrunk from the 100 metres in his book - to between 40 and 50 metres when he wanted to impress on the reporter how 'strange' it was for Gerry to go the long way round when the back door was so close.
IMO Amaral took advantage of the fact that there is no record of what Gerry's reasons were for correcting his first statement. Just as he did with JT when (on his instructions) because no statement was taken from her to prove otherwise, he claimed she had formally identified RM.
I cannot believe anyone would think that Amaral's description of which door Gerry used was a fair one - by any stretch of the imagination.
AIMHO
Gerry changed his story. If he explained why it wasn't recorded so how on earth do you expect Amaral to be privy to something only the interpreter heard?
There was no confusion between the PJ and the witnesses unless you have a cite for that? One UK policewoman was a bit slow getting her head round things and that's all. it's hardly fair to take that isolated comment and apply it to every interview in the UK and Portugal, now is it?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2017, 04:03:00 PM
The video is in Portguese. The subtitles do not lend the reader to believe these are "opinions".
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2017, 04:15:23 PM
So you are only able to find one point which wasn't made by Amaral in the video, yet you are happy to say 'The video is full of lies... Fact'.
Soundbites, faux outrage, goading and accusations I have seen plenty of, but they are just opinions. List the lies you've spotted!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2017, 04:18:37 PM
So you are only able to find one point which wasn't made by Amaral in the video, yet you are happy to say 'The video is full of lies... Fact'.
Soundbites, faux outrage, goading and accusations I have seen plenty of, but they are just opinions. List the lies you've spotted!!!!!!!!
Answer the second point first before I waste my time The idea is just a rerun of lies he has told before He talks of cadaver odour as being a fact It isnt
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2017, 04:23:30 PM
Answer the second point first before I waste my time The idea is just a rerun of lies he has told before He talks of cadaver odour as being a fact It isnt
Please give the time reference.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 27, 2017, 04:31:30 PM
The video is in Portguese. The subtitles do not lend the reader to believe these are "opinions". The subtitles are in my opinion very libelous and I find it difficult to believe that these are being allowed on this forum.
I think I will add a caveat to the opening post mirroring the text at the top of each forum page, namely...
* Media reports provided on this forum are for information only * Endorsement of such material is neither intended nor implied
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2017, 04:49:37 PM
im quite happy to highlight some of the lies in the video...there are many....before I do could you confirm your opinion of it....do you believe it is accurate and does not contain lies#
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 04:58:10 PM
The McCanns moved into the villa long after a full-scale police and civilian search had been mounted.
The McCanns knew nothing about the villa until just before they moved into it.
Who thinks Mark Harrison wrote, with a straight face, that the villa might be (sic) an obvious place to look for Madeleine's (sic) concealed and deceased remains?
He certainly wrote it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 27, 2017, 05:11:08 PM
If anyone thinks there is an issue with the subtitles, please give me a time-stamp and I will be happy to check it against the Portuguese.
At the moment, my priority is the Sky 2 May 2017 special. Then I intend to move onto the Panorama 3 May 2017 special.
So please keep any chunk you wish to be checked short, and I need the time it appeared. 8((()*/
Thank you for your generous offer, Shining. I've had a very quick look at some of the video so probably very unfair to comment but I must say from what I have read on the thread that the Portuguese media seems to be trapped in some sort of time warp here.
Ten years ago Madeleine McCann was alleged to have fallen victim to an abductor.
What does Goncalo Amaral have to add to that? He got it entirely wrong as far as the dog alerts and understanding of the forensic evidence is concerned. So why does this documentary feature him and his unproven and unprovable theorising (creepers~freezers~churches~coffins~crematoria) in such depth?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 05:29:53 PM
Here, incidentally, is where Mark Harrison wrote that the villa might be an "obvious" place to look for Madeleine's "concealed and deceased remains":
Quote
- All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles. - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to. - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment. - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz. - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.
These recommendations were based on the fact that these areas had not been previously searched with the specific intent to locate Madeleine McCann’s concealed and deceased body and that the areas recommended afforded likely and obvious places to consider for concealment in such an investigation.
Of course the Renault Scenic was always an "obvious" place to look for Madeleine's "concealed and deceased remains", as was the villa ....
Who dreamed up this rubbish?
I don't believe, for one moment, it was Mark Harrison who, himself, drew up a perfectly logical (suggested!) schedule of searches, themselves, not omitted; rather added to, in a way superfluous and that, themselves, heaped yet more ill-deserved opprobrium on Kate and Gerry McCann.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 27, 2017, 05:39:29 PM
Thank you for your generous offer, Shining. I've had a very quick look at some of the video so probably very unfair to comment but I must say from what I have read on the thread that the Portuguese media seems to be trapped in some sort of time warp here.
Ten years ago Madeleine McCann was alleged to have fallen victim to an abductor.
What does Goncalo Amaral have to add to that? He got it entirely wrong as far as the dog alerts and understanding of the forensic evidence is concerned. So why does this documentary feature him and his unproven and unprovable theorising (creepers~freezers~churches~coffins~crematoria) in such depth?
From my brushes with the Portuguese media and looking at comments on-line, the Portuguese people seem to think the McCanns deserve to be hoisted by their own petard. Trying to 'sell' any different line seems well-nigh impossible.
I am wary of the accuracy of the subtitles, as I believe they originate from an anti-McCann source, so they may be somewhat biased. Hence my offer to check specific chunks.
And for the record, we have tabloid reporting in Portugal too. Lurid and sensationalist is not restricted to Britain.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2017, 06:11:46 PM
im quite happy to highlight some of the lies in the video...there are many....before I do could you confirm your opinion of it....do you believe it is accurate and does not contain lies#
You are making the claim. Provide your evidence for discussion point by point.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 06:14:18 PM
Thank you for your generous offer, Shining. I've had a very quick look at some of the video so probably very unfair to comment but I must say from what I have read on the thread that the Portuguese media seems to be trapped in some sort of time warp here.
Ten years ago Madeleine McCann was alleged to have fallen victim to an abductor.
What does Goncalo Amaral have to add to that? He got it entirely wrong as far as the dog alerts and understanding of the forensic evidence is concerned. So why does this documentary feature him and his unproven and unprovable theorising (creepers~freezers~churches~coffins~crematoria) in such depth?
He can say what he likes now. The McCann's long battle to gag him is over and they lost. The McCanns have done their share of promoting their theory, after all.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 27, 2017, 06:31:45 PM
He can say what he likes now. The McCann's long battle to gag him is over and they lost. The McCanns have done their share of promoting their theory, after all.
He can't say what he likes in the uk
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2017, 06:37:19 PM
being consistently wrong is nothing to be proud of
Ah but it has never been shown that Amaral is wrong, the parents never hung around long enough to be cleared of any wrongdoing so they have nobody to blame but themselves. Maddie would have been so proud of their selfless efforts.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 08:23:18 PM
Ah but it has never been shown that Amaral is wrong, the parents never hung around long enough to be cleared of any wrongdoing so they have nobody to blame but themselves. Maddie would have been so proud of their selfless efforts.
Funny thing I said as much the other day and my post was whoosed.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 08:25:48 PM
Ah but it has never been shown that Amaral is wrong, the parents never hung around long enough to be cleared of any wrongdoing so they have nobody to blame but themselves. Maddie would have been so proud of their selfless efforts.
If that's the best argument you have its pretty pathetic Jehovas witnesses haven't been proved wrong Maddie could not have died falling off the sofa Proof Amaral is wrong
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2017, 08:32:36 PM
If that's the best argument you have its pretty pathetic Jehovas witnesses haven't been proved wrong Maddie could not have died falling off the sofa Proof Amaral is wrong
Please keep to the facts.
It has not been determined what happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on May 27, 2017, 09:19:49 PM
Gerry changed his story. If he explained why it wasn't recorded so how on earth do you expect Amaral to be privy to something only the interpreter heard?
There was no confusion between the PJ and the witnesses unless you have a cite for that? One UK policewoman was a bit slow getting her head round things and that's all. it's hardly fair to take that isolated comment and apply it to every interview in the UK and Portugal, now is it?
Sorry G - I don't understand your first couple of sentences.
IIRC the confusion referred to by the UK police officer was to confusion caused in the past not during her interview with JT. Also IIRC in order to prevent it happening during this interview they agreed to call the patio doors the 'poolside door' and the other door the ' roadside door'.
I've noticed that other people also described the patio door as the front door. The 4 ex policemen (can't remember their names) who went over to PDL had a chart on the wall with the patio door clearly marked as the front door. I've always thought of the patio door as the back door.
As IMO there is not a single sensible credible reason why Gerry would make the ridiculous claim - of going in via the front door, (i.e. the roadside door) then common sense alone dictates that a misunderstanding probably occurred between the PJ officer, the interpreter and Gerry during what was the very first interview of this case for all of them. Not only would Gerry be exhausted and traumatised, he would also be finding it very difficult to concentrate - hoping and praying that news would arrive any second that Madeleine had been found.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2017, 09:20:38 PM
Can you give me the time reference in the video where Amaral says that? I found a point where the reporter said it (38.04), but he wasn't present in that clip.
There is much made of the language barrier when supporters are defending the McCanns. Perhaps it might be acknowledged that such things can work both ways.
Amaral describes in his book how Harrison showed them a video of Grime's dogs in training and at work 'in over 200 investigations'. Did Harrison verbally refer to over 200 investigations? We don't know what he said when promoting the use of the dogs, do we? He may have said the same as Grime below and been misunderstood.
In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Criminal case searches are not the same as criminal cases. The dogs were involved in one case in Luz, but carried out many searches.
Grime has said both:
False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
But also, in his CV: In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 09:54:51 PM
It has not been determined what happened to Madeleine.
Unless, and until, gainsaid by a reliable source, this (from the archiving dispatch) remains fact:
Quote
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
(Portuguese prosecutors).
As does the content of the final PJ report, written by Inspector Carlos, who states that, at the time of the Smith sighting, and also the time of Kate's alert, Gerry was in the Tapas Restaurant.
Oh, and the remit of Operation Grange, which is treating Madeleine's abduction as if her abduction had occurred in England.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 27, 2017, 09:58:52 PM
If that's the best argument you have its pretty pathetic Jehovas witnesses haven't been proved wrong Maddie could not have died falling off the sofa Proof Amaral is wrong
He suggested she had fallen over the patio balcony and broke her neck. He never said she fell off a sofa.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2017, 10:07:01 PM
Unless, and until, gainsaid by a reliable source, this (from the archiving dispatch) remains fact:
(Portuguese prosecutors).
As does the content of the report of the final PJ report, written by Inspector Carlos, who states that, at the time of the Smith sighting, and also the time of Kate's alert, Gerry was in the Tapas Restaurant.
Oh, and the remit of Operation Grange, which is treating Madeleine's abduction as if her abduction had occurred in England.
Evidently, you fail to understand the word 'possibility'.
Abduction is one of the scenarios.
It hasn't been proved.
We already know that OG's remit was limited, and the case will be inevitably shelved as it was before.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on May 27, 2017, 10:10:28 PM
False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
But also, in his CV: In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Grime is on record as saying operational deployment and over 200 cases.
The true number is operational deployment and 37 cases.
Carana is right.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2017, 10:15:39 PM
Unless, and until, gainsaid by a reliable source, this (from the archiving dispatch) remains fact:
(Portuguese prosecutors).
As does the content of the final PJ report, written by Inspector Carlos, who states that, at the time of the Smith sighting, and also the time of Kate's alert, Gerry was in the Tapas Restaurant.
Oh, and the remit of Operation Grange, which is treating Madeleine's abduction as if her abduction had occurred in England.
Kate McCann was overheard to shout "Madeleine's gone!" immediately after discovering her missing. A search was immediately commenced around Ocean Club in an attempt to find her. All this despite the claim that the shutter was up and the window open.
The abduction scenario was an afterthought, it is unsupported by any credible evidence.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 10:21:19 PM
Kate McCann was overheard to shout "Madeleine's gone!" immediately after discovering her missing. A search was immediately commenced around Ocean Club in an attempt to find her. All this despite the claim that the shutter was up and the window open.
The abduction scenario was an afterthought, it is unsupported by any credible evidence.
It's amazing that there are (or claim to be) posters on this board more astute than either English or Portuguese detectives who actively conducted the investigation in Portugal.
Quote
The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.
Simply, there is no room for doubt about what, at least the Prosecutors thought.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2017, 10:24:32 PM
It's amazing that there are (or claim to be) posters on this board more astute than either English or Portuguese detectives who actively conducted the investigation in Portugal.
....and these detectives have found ......
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2017, 10:28:01 PM
1. Had Inspector Carlos got it wrong (that Gerry was at the table at the point of Kate's alert and the point of the Smith sighting) you would have expected Gerry's absence to be noted immediately. More, you would expect to read detailed commentary in the files on efforts to find Gerry to tell him what had happened, including where he was when found and who found him.
2. The provenance of Eddie's reaction to the car is known and innocent. Eddie ignored the boot and the forensic analysis of material from the boot just told nothing at all.
3. The reason why more time was spent in apartment 5a than any of the other apartments combined, stands in need of explanation, and should be explained.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2017, 06:25:17 AM
Sorry G - I don't understand your first couple of sentences.
IIRC the confusion referred to by the UK police officer was to confusion caused in the past not during her interview with JT. Also IIRC in order to prevent it happening during this interview they agreed to call the patio doors the 'poolside door' and the other door the ' roadside door'.
I've noticed that other people also described the patio door as the front door. The 4 ex policemen (can't remember their names) who went over to PDL had a chart on the wall with the patio door clearly marked as the front door. I've always thought of the patio door as the back door.
As IMO there is not a single sensible credible reason why Gerry would make the ridiculous claim - of going in via the front door, (i.e. the roadside door) then common sense alone dictates that a misunderstanding probably occurred between the PJ officer, the interpreter and Gerry during what was the very first interview of this case for all of them. Not only would Gerry be exhausted and traumatised, he would also be finding it very difficult to concentrate - hoping and praying that news would arrive any second that Madeleine had been found.
AIMHO
The UK police interviewers may have been confused, but there's no evidence that the PJ were. I don't know why Gerry said he unlocked the door with his KEY and neither do you, but he said it.
Perhaps the single sensible credible reason why Gerry made the (not at all) ridiculous claim - of going in via the front door, was that he went in by the front door? That's more credible to me than the proposal that he forgot what he'd done the evening before and every evening since Sunday.
The bit of your post I've bolded is your opinion and cannot be verified.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on May 28, 2017, 09:53:28 AM
The UK police interviewers may have been confused, but there's no evidence that the PJ were. I don't know why Gerry said he unlocked the door with his KEY and neither do you, but he said it.
Perhaps the single sensible credible reason why Gerry made the (not at all) ridiculous claim - of going in via the front door, was that he went in by the front door? That's more credible to me than the proposal that he forgot what he'd done the evening before and every evening since Sunday.
The bit of your post I've bolded is your opinion and cannot be verified.
We shall have to agree to disagree then G - as I don't believe Gerry did say it. IMO he may have said 'the front door' but was talking about the patio door. I believe he and the PJ officer were genuinely at cross-purposes over which door was which.
For what possible reason would he decide to say he went all the way round to the front door - after already confirming that the patio door, a couple of seconds walk away, was open? He would need to have a good reason for making that claim - as it doesn't make any sense for him to do that - (especially if he needed the loo).
Sorry but as you give no reason why Gerry would suddenly decide do something so inexplicable - then just giving ''he went in by the front door'' as a credible reason doesn't work for me. What was his motive?
It seems clear to me that the PJ officer was not familiar with the layout of 5A or the immediate area - because if he was then surely he would have asked Gerry the obvious question i.e. ''WHY did you walk past the open patio door and go all that long way round to the front door?'' during that interview.
If he had - then I think any misunderstanding about the doors would have been cleared up there and then.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2017, 10:17:34 AM
We shall have to agree to disagree then G - as I don't believe Gerry did say it. IMO he may have said 'the front door' but was talking about the patio door. I believe he and the PJ officer were genuinely at cross-purposes over which door was which.
For what possible reason would he decide to say he went all the way round to the front door - after already confirming that the patio door, a couple of seconds walk away, was open? He would need to have a good reason for making that claim - as it doesn't make any sense for him to do that - (especially if he needed the loo).
Sorry but as you give no reason why Gerry would suddenly decide do something so inexplicable - then just giving ''he went in by the front door'' as a credible reason doesn't work for me. What was his motive?
It seems clear to me that the PJ officer was not familiar with the layout of 5A or the immediate area - because if he was then surely he would have asked Gerry the obvious question i.e. ''WHY did you walk past the open patio door and go all that long way round to the front door?'' during that interview.
If he had - then I think any misunderstanding about the doors would have been cleared up there and then.
AIMHO
It's quite common for some to disbelieve the statements when it suits their purposes, I notice. The problem with doing that is no statement can then be used to support an argument. Cast doubt on one and you have to doubt them all. Perhaps Gerry was 'misunderstood' when he recounted what time he checked, when he talked of open doors, when he gave the time of Kate's alert, and so on. You can't cherry-pick what you believe.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on May 28, 2017, 10:43:02 AM
It's quite common for some to disbelieve the statements when it suits their purposes, I notice. The problem with doing that is no statement can then be used to support an argument. Cast doubt on one and you have to doubt them all. Perhaps Gerry was 'misunderstood' when he recounted what time he checked, when he talked of open doors, when he gave the time of Kate's alert, and so on. You can't cherry-pick what you believe.
I'm afraid I have never regarded any non-verbatim statements as totally reliable. In fact I think going over them with a microscope analysing every word as if they ARE totally accurate is a waste of time and energy. Similarly - although I believe witnesses told the truth - that doesn't mean that all their recollections are accurate.
However what I don't do is throw common sense, logic and reasoned thought out of the window - no matter what is being discussed/debated.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 11:14:58 AM
The topic of the thread is anarals video. I have highlighted things he has said that are just palin wrong...why is he saying these things...saying that the children were put to bed each night with an antihistamine called calpol...saying that the alerts proved there was a cadaver in the apartment...is he just not very bright or is there another motive.
What he has shown is that the mccanns have no case to answer...well done amaral..
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2017, 11:17:30 AM
So what is the reason that Amaral gets so much wrong The children were not put to sleep every night with an antihistamine called calpol The dogs did not prove a cadaver had been in the apartment
So what is the explanation Was he just not very bright and should not have been leading the investigation
In my opinion good detectives appear to develop a sense of when people are being less than honest. Amaral may not have worked out exactly what the truth is, but he's convinced something was hidden. John Stalker reached the same conclusion. Many ordinary people agree with them. That's why blogs and fora exist which promote this viewpoint.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 28, 2017, 11:23:13 AM
The topic of the thread is anarals video. I have highlighted things he has said that are just palin wrong...why is he saying these things...saying that the children were put to bed each night with an antihistamine called calpol...saying that the alerts proved there was a cadaver in the apartment...is he just not very bright or is there another motive.
What he has shown is that the mccanns have no case to answer...well done amaral..
You do not know what happened in the apartment.
You are also impugning another persons intelligence, and also indicating possible other motives for his actions, which you have no basis for.
Not one of the three main theories has been proved or disproved.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 11:23:58 AM
In my opinion good detectives appear to develop a sense of when people are being less than honest. Amaral may not have worked out exactly what the truth is, but he's convinced something was hidden. John Stalker reached the same conclusion. Many ordinary people agree with them. That's why blogs and fora exist which promote this viewpoint.
good detectives rely on evidence........what you are saying is that amaral relied on his intuition which is fine to guide an investigation but not to reach conclusions.....that is a disgrace and very poor policing. What amaral has proved is taht he has no evidence against the mccanns.....its about time he admitted it and stopped saying thisngs that are not true
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 11:25:21 AM
You are also impugning another persons intelligence, and also indicating possible other motives for his actions, which you have no basis for.
Not one of the three main theories has been proved or disproved.
So what is the reason that Amaral gets so much wrong The children were not put to sleep every night with an antihistamine called calpol The dogs did not prove a cadaver had been in the apartment
So what is the explanation Was he just not very bright and should not have been leading the investigation
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2017, 11:30:14 AM
In my opinion good detectives appear to develop a sense of when people are being less than honest. Amaral may not have worked out exactly what the truth is, but he's convinced something was hidden. John Stalker reached the same conclusion. Many ordinary people agree with them. That's why blogs and fora exist which promote this viewpoint.
John Stalker believes that The McCanns are innocent. You forgot to mention that.
As for a gut instinct sense of being less than honest. Try that one one in a Court of Law. Although it does appear to have worked for Amaral in the past.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2017, 11:33:41 AM
So what is the reason that Amaral gets so much wrong The children were not put to sleep every night with an antihistamine called calpol The dogs did not prove a cadaver had been in the apartment
So what is the explanation Was he just not very bright and should not have been leading the investigation
There was no Calpol containing antihistamine in May 2007. This is a Fact.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2017, 11:35:43 AM
I'm afraid I have never regarded any non-verbatim statements as totally reliable. In fact I think going over them with a microscope analysing every word as if they ARE totally accurate is a waste of time and energy. Similarly - although I believe witnesses told the truth - that doesn't mean that all their recollections are accurate.
YES!
However what I don't do is throw common sense, logic and reasoned thought out of the window - no matter what is being discussed/debated.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 11:40:42 AM
Amaral was coordinator for the investigation for a few months.
I am discussing the video that has been posted...this is a discussion forum...thats what happens
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 28, 2017, 11:53:10 AM
I did point out on the first page of this thread that Calpol does not have antihistamine, which is clamed by Sr Amaral in the video. He has obviously got confused as to what the medicine does, does not do.
He is implying that this may have been used to drug the children to make them sleep. It is highly unlikely that this would be used for such a scenario. It may well help children to sleep if they are in pain from teething/earache etc. However it is known that Calpol contains paracetamol and people can accidentally overdose. The children would have had to have been given a huge amount to knock them out! As a theory I would dismiss this instantly. The fact that Kate wanted the children's hair to be checked- it is well known in the medical profession that the hair follicles of drug users can highlight certain drugs for up to a year!
If a deliberate drugging theory is to be considered by who ever is suspected of administering the drug. Calpol would not be the chosen drug to do this.
Another theory in the equation is accidental drugging- child wakes up- see prescription tablets and thinking they are sweets eats some.
Please note I am not stating anything typed in this post to have happened, these are just theories I have come across over the years and worthy of a mention even just to be dismissed, or debated.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 11:54:20 AM
I did point out on the first page of this thread that Calpol does not have antihistamine, which is clamed by Sr Amaral in the video. He has obviously got confused as to what the medicine does, does not do.
He is implying that this may have been used to drug the children to make them sleep. It is highly unlikely that this would be used for such a scenario. It may well help children to sleep if they are in pain from teething/earache etc. However it is known that Calpol contains paracetamol and people can accidentally overdose. The children would have had to have been given a huge amount to knock them out! As a theory I would dismiss this instantly. The fact that Kate wanted the children's hair to be checked- it is well known in the medical profession that the hair follicles of drug users can highlight certain drugs for up to a year!
If a deliberate drugging theory is to be considered by who ever is suspected of administering the drug. Calpol would not be the chosen drug to do this.
Another theory in the equation is accidental drugging- child wakes up- see prescription tablets and thinking they are sweets eats some.
Please note I am not stating anything typed in this post to have happened, these are just theories I have come across over the years and worthy of a mention even just to be dismissed, or debated.
so if you and others understand this why doesnt amaral
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2017, 11:54:56 AM
I'm afraid I have never regarded any non-verbatim statements as totally reliable. In fact I think going over them with a microscope analysing every word as if they ARE totally accurate is a waste of time and energy. Similarly - although I believe witnesses told the truth - that doesn't mean that all their recollections are accurate.
However what I don't do is throw common sense, logic and reasoned thought out of the window - no matter what is being discussed/debated.
So they told what they thought was the truth, is that what you're saying? Telling the truth is really simple but in this case it seems very complicated. The only thing they all (roughly) agree on is the timeline and they wrote that together.
I also believe I possess common sense, logic and reasoned thought. Unlike you, though, I think it's perfectly possible for Gerry McCann to have entered the apartment through the locked door using his key. There's no reason to believe that it's illogical or unreasonable in my opinion. So appealing to abstract concepts doesn't work because they're subjective, not universal.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 28, 2017, 12:13:56 PM
cite for falling over balcony.....never herad amaral say that
He implied that could have happened as the dog alerted in the garden below the balcony. If I recall he suggested that Madeleine could have pursued her father after hearing him speaking outside.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2017, 12:18:37 PM
So they told what they thought was the truth, is that what you're saying? Telling the truth is really simple but in this case it seems very complicated. The only thing they all (roughly) agree on is the timeline and they wrote that together.
I also believe I possess common sense, logic and reasoned thought. Unlike you, though, I think it's perfectly possible for Gerry McCann to have entered the apartment through the locked door using his key. There's no reason to believe that it's illogical or unreasonable in my opinion. So appealing to abstract concepts doesn't work because they're subjective, not universal.
Re-telling personal recollection of fast-moving, and particularly stressful, events is never simple.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 28, 2017, 12:20:28 PM
I'm afraid I have never regarded any non-verbatim statements as totally reliable. In fact I think going over them with a microscope analysing every word as if they ARE totally accurate is a waste of time and energy. Similarly - although I believe witnesses told the truth - that doesn't mean that all their recollections are accurate.
However what I don't do is throw common sense, logic and reasoned thought out of the window - no matter what is being discussed/debated.
Well that's a new one on me I have to say... If the recollections are inaccurate then how can they be telling the truth?
I cannot accept that these doctors can barely string a sentence together in interviews of such importance but can chop, over the weeks/months, and changed things due to 'recollection'. The recollections of Jane Tanner and Kate McCann vastly improved to make an abductor story more pliable.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 28, 2017, 12:23:22 PM
So what is the reason that Amaral gets so much wrong The children were not put to sleep every night with an antihistamine called calpol The dogs did not prove a cadaver had been in the apartment
so clearly amaral does not have a clue
I suspect you know very well that Amaral espoused several theories, he did not state categorically that this happened or that happened. As to what he got wrong, no proof has been provided one way or another. It is unknown what happened to the child, Amaral's qualified opinion is as valid as anyone elses at this juncture in time.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
good detectives rely on evidence........what you are saying is that amaral relied on his intuition which is fine to guide an investigation but not to reach conclusions.....that is a disgrace and very poor policing. What amaral has proved is taht he has no evidence against the mccanns.....its about time he admitted it and stopped saying thisngs that are not true
The McCanns aroused many people's suspicions, not just Amaral's.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 28, 2017, 12:32:49 PM
For Information:
Some of you will have noticed that a new moderator has been appointed to replace Shining in Luz who is taking a break from the task. Please afford the usual courtesies to this new moderator as he settles in to the job.
John Senior Editor
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2017, 12:35:25 PM
A video has been posted....it is therefore raesonable to expect critique of that video to be allowed. I have pointed out several blatant untruths in the video which no one has sought to defend ...asking the question as to why amaral is peddling this rubbish is quite reasonable.
If moderators dont want teh video questioned it should be removed
Give the time references. Or do you expect others to comb the whole video to see what you're talking about?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 28, 2017, 12:42:27 PM
The McCanns aroused many people's suspicions, not just Amaral's.
Lack of evidence is the issue. Not having enough to arrest and charge... some people just refuse to accept that Maddie is still missing, and has been looked for globally and by two police forces, and Private Investigators. NO EVIDENCE OF ADBUCTORS. none- not an ounce. What does that tell you?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2017, 12:44:51 PM
I suspect you know very well that Amaral espoused several theories, he did not state categorically that this happened or that happened. As to what he got wrong, no proof has been provided one way or another. It is unknown what happened to the child, Amaral's qualified opinion is as valid as anyone elses at this juncture in time.
When anyone espouses theories, they should at least be:
A/ half-competent
B/ At the very least not directly contradicted by the facts
C / Not demeaning of the reputations of people against whom there is no credible evidence.
And no, MTI, absence of evidence to support anything (Amaral) claims is the problem
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2017, 12:47:57 PM
Lack of evidence is the issue. Not having enough to arrest and charge... some people just refuse to accept that Maddie is still missing, and has been looked for globally and by two police forces, and Private Investigators. NO EVIDENCE OF ADBUCTORS. none- not an ounce. What does that tell you?
It tells me that Madeleine is still missing.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 12:49:14 PM
Give the time references. Or do you expect others to comb the whole video to see what you're talking about?
I would have thought that those with knowledge of the case would be aware of these and certainly if you have watched the video...have you watched it and whats your opinion on it
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2017, 12:49:53 PM
Re-telling personal recollection of fast-moving, and particularly stressful, events is never simple.
In your opinion. I can see no reason why truth becomes difficult when stress is involved. You SIMPLY say what you remember and if you can't remember you say so.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 12:50:44 PM
I suspect you know very well that Amaral espoused several theories, he did not state categorically that this happened or that happened. As to what he got wrong, no proof has been provided one way or another. It is unknown what happened to the child, Amaral's qualified opinion is as valid as anyone elses at this juncture in time.
Amaral is stating things as facts and not saying things are his opinion...he uses phrases such as...of that there is no doubt...that aint opinion
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2017, 12:51:42 PM
In your opinion. I can see no reason why truth becomes difficult when stress is involved. You SIMPLY say what you remember and if you can't remember you say so.
Opinion be damned. Well-tested research and empirical evidence proves the point
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 12:53:59 PM
I suspect you know very well that Amaral espoused several theories, he did not state categorically that this happened or that happened. As to what he got wrong, no proof has been provided one way or another. It is unknown what happened to the child, Amaral's qualified opinion is as valid as anyone elses at this juncture in time.
what is not valid is the evidence amaral uses to support his theories...it is plainn wrong
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2017, 12:54:12 PM
I would have thought that those with knowledge of the case would be aware of these and certainly if you have watched the video...have you watched it and whats your opinion on it
I'm not combing through it to find the points you have thrown out. I don't even know it they are in there.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 12:55:05 PM
Lack of evidence is the issue. Not having enough to arrest and charge... some people just refuse to accept that Maddie is still missing, and has been looked for globally and by two police forces, and Private Investigators. NO EVIDENCE OF ADBUCTORS. none- not an ounce. What does that tell you?
It confirms that abduction remains just one possible theory.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on May 28, 2017, 01:26:51 PM
So they told what they thought was the truth, is that what you're saying? Telling the truth is really simple but in this case it seems very complicated. The only thing they all (roughly) agree on is the timeline and they wrote that together.
I also believe I possess common sense, logic and reasoned thought. Unlike you, though, I think it's perfectly possible for Gerry McCann to have entered the apartment through the locked door using his key. There's no reason to believe that it's illogical or unreasonable in my opinion. So appealing to abstract concepts doesn't work because they're subjective, not universal.
If you really don't think it's illogical to walk past an open door a few feet away from you, and for no conceivable reason waste time walking another 50/60 metres or so - to attain the same goal - i.e. to enter 5A - then I can't help you.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2017, 01:28:03 PM
Gerry was in the tapas restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting.
Jane saw a man carrying a child and the Smiths saw a man carrying a child.
PJ Inspector Joao Carlos ruled out 'woke and wandered'.
That'll do.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 01:31:07 PM
the parents are not susects in either investigation...there is no real evidence against them as amaral hs shown. Woke and wandered is unlikely...that makes abduction likely ...
What evidence exists to show abduction ?
Don't bother referring to that old thread, there is none on there to show abduction.
SY and the PJ have not solved the case or determined Madeleine's fate.
None of the three main theories have been proved or disproved.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 01:43:51 PM
tell me which points you do not agree with...its quite simple...there are only 3 options
1 parents are not considered suspects...taht rules out parental invovement
2 the archiving report with access to all evidence says woke and wandered unlikely
3 that leaves abduction and is therefore shown to be by far the most likely based on logic
1. No it doesn't. That situation could change very quickly when the new evidence is found. 2. The archiving report is nearly 10 years out of date. The woke and wandered theory is very valid and supported as a possibility by many experienced former detectives. 3. That doesn't leave abduction no matter how much you wish for it. In fact abduction has no evidence to back it up.
Tell me davel, why do you ignore the facts in favour of fantasy?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 28, 2017, 02:23:53 PM
what is not valid is the evidence amaral uses to support his theories...it is plainn wrong
You are not privy to what Amaral was told and especially so concerning the initial DNA analyses. He is entitled to form an opinion, after all, he was there from day one and knows a lot more about the case than most. Granted some of his theories are far fetched but they are theories all the same and not stated fact as you previously claimed.
He persists in his allegation of parental involvement and that is his prerogative.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 02:33:59 PM
You are not privy to what Amaral was told and especially so concerning the initial DNA analyses. He is entitled to form an opinion, after all, he was there from day one and knows a lot more about the case than most. Granted some of his theories are far fetched but they are theories all the same and not stated fact as you previously claimed.
He persists in his allegation of parental involvement and that is his prerogative.
You miss the point Have you watched the video All his conclusions are based on flawed evidence There is no evidence of a preliminary report but evidence that Amaral does not have a clue He can have any opinion he wants but when he shows his conclusions are based on a poor understanding of the evidence he makes a fool of himself
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 03:03:39 PM
1. No it doesn't. That situation could change very quickly when the new evidence is found. 2. The archiving report is nearly 10 years out of date. The woke and wandered theory is very valid and supported as a possibility by many experienced former detectives. 3. That doesn't leave abduction no matter how much you wish for it. In fact abduction has no evidence to back it up.
Tell me davel, why do you ignore the facts in favour of fantasy?
my fact....there is no real evidence against the mccanns....your fantasy...there may be some at a later date my fact...discussing what amaral tells us he bases his conclusions on...your fantasy...he may know more
so it is you who does not accept the facts and beleives in fantasy...have a think
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 03:05:23 PM
You are not privy to what Amaral was told and especially so concerning the initial DNA analyses. He is entitled to form an opinion, after all, he was there from day one and knows a lot more about the case than most. Granted some of his theories are far fetched but they are theories all the same and not stated fact as you previously claimed.
He persists in his allegation of parental involvement and that is his prerogative.
he does state his opinion as fact.......you need to watch the video...using words such as...of that there is no doubt...is not opinion
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2017, 03:10:07 PM
1. No it doesn't. That situation could change very quickly when the new evidence is found. 2. The archiving report is nearly 10 years out of date. The woke and wandered theory is very valid and supported as a possibility by many experienced former detectives. 3. That doesn't leave abduction no matter how much you wish for it. In fact abduction has no evidence to back it up.
Tell me davel, why do you ignore the facts in favour of fantasy?
The remit of operation grange is much more up-to-date than the archiving dispatch.
It is treating Madeleine's abduction as if her abduction had occurred in the UK.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 03:11:04 PM
34.40..he(david) had a paranoia....an interest in bathing children...a total and utter lie
38.20...we have these dogs taht have helped to solve 200 cases in the us and uk...........corpse odor detected...more lies
42.40...dna results manipulated..of that we have no doubt...more lies
46.50...we have no doubt that the children were put to sleep with calpol.......note the words...we have no doubt...more lies ...calpol does not put children to sleep
amaral clearly had and does not have a clue
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2017, 03:12:43 PM
You are not privy to what Amaral was told and especially so concerning the initial DNA analyses. He is entitled to form an opinion, after all, he was there from day one and knows a lot more about the case than most. Granted some of his theories are far fetched but they are theories all the same and not stated fact as you previously claimed.
He persists in his allegation of parental involvement and that is his prerogative.
No it isn't.
Amaral could not even get right the sequence of events while he was still coordinator.
On the basis alone Amaral (should!) forfeit any right to express any opinion and the Supreme Court has blundered shamefully.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 28, 2017, 03:22:42 PM
We shall have to agree to disagree then G - as I don't believe Gerry did say it. IMO he may have said 'the front door' but was talking about the patio door. I believe he and the PJ officer were genuinely at cross-purposes over which door was which.
For what possible reason would he decide to say he went all the way round to the front door - after already confirming that the patio door, a couple of seconds walk away, was open? He would need to have a good reason for making that claim - as it doesn't make any sense for him to do that - (especially if he needed the loo).
Sorry but as you give no reason why Gerry would suddenly decide do something so inexplicable - then just giving ''he went in by the front door'' as a credible reason doesn't work for me. What was his motive?
It seems clear to me that the PJ officer was not familiar with the layout of 5A or the immediate area - because if he was then surely he would have asked Gerry the obvious question i.e. ''WHY did you walk past the open patio door and go all that long way round to the front door?'' during that interview.
If he had - then I think any misunderstanding about the doors would have been cleared up there and then.
AIMHO
The key word is 'chave' which is Portuguese for key. It cannot be mistranslated as front or rear. It means a KEY.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 28, 2017, 04:45:51 PM
The key word is 'chave' which is Portuguese for key. It cannot be mistranslated as front or rear. It means a KEY.
I'm aware of that, SIL.
That's not my point, though.
It would be easy for either the police officer or the interpreter to scribble notes to get the gist of the layout of the flat and, between the three of them, got mixed up when the statement got written up.
I've made statements to the police before, in a language that I didn't understand myself at the time, but with the assistance of someone who did.
It was only many years later that I came across it again in a dusty file and found that most of the rest of it was total gibberish.
I had simply scoured it at the time for the essential details (one of which was my stolen passport). And, yes, it had been read back to me, but nothing aside from the essentials had registered.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 05:01:54 PM
The key word is 'chave' which is Portuguese for key. It cannot be mistranslated as front or rear. It means a KEY.
there is no proof that gerry used the word. His statements are not translations of what he said they are paraphrased. Without a transcript of his actual english words we cannot know what he said
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 28, 2017, 05:08:54 PM
It would be easy for either the police officer or the interpreter to scribble notes to get the gist of the layout of the flat and, between the three of them, got mixed up when the statement got written up.
I've made statements to the police before, in a language that I didn't understand myself at the time, but with the assistance of someone who did.
It was only many years later that I came across it again in a dusty file and found that most of the rest of it was total gibberish.
I had simply scoured it at the time for the essential details (one of which was my stolen passport). And, yes, it had been read back to me, but nothing aside from the essentials had registered.
Unless you think the translator misunderstood Gerry saying front or rear as 'using a key', then retranslated it back at the end as front or rear, then you are simply ignoring everything in the statements.
Gerry said he used a key. Then he said Matthew went in by the patio doors. Then he said Kate used a key.
Then Kate said she used the patio door, with Gerry present at the interview.
Then (10th May) Gerry changed it to using the patio doors. No key.
We have given a statement about a crime occurring in Iberia. That statement was signed to confirm it was accurate, because it was. It contained the pertinent facts.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 05:17:12 PM
What facts, including forensic evidence show an abduction ?
Now, let's have an answer with cites, and not opinions.
the thread is about amarals video....he states many things as facts which are not...he obviously does not have a clue.. perhaps you could address this as its the title of the thread rather than diverting
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 05:18:26 PM
Unless you think the translator misunderstood Gerry saying front or rear as 'using a key', then retranslated it back at the end as front or rear, then you are simply ignoring everything in the statements.
Gerry said he used a key. Then he said Matthew went in by the patio doors. Then he said Kate used a key.
Then Kate said she used the patio door, with Gerry present at the interview.
Then (10th May) Gerry changed it to using the patio doors. No key.
We have given a statement about a crime occurring in Iberia. That statement was signed to confirm it was accurate, because it was. It contained the pertinent facts.
the statement is not verbatim and therefore it is a fact that we cannot be sure that gerry used teh word key
we also know the pj did not use professional translators
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 28, 2017, 05:28:24 PM
So , still no facts to support abduction.
I have no problem with those who disbelieve Amaral.
However, saying he hasn't a clue, is ridiculous.
He was there on the scene, and we simply do not know the entire contents of the police files.
As to those who criticize Amaral's ethics or intelligence, well that is hardly surprising , as they back the McCann's 100%, and are hardly going to shower him with praise.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2017, 05:30:42 PM
Unless you think the translator misunderstood Gerry saying front or rear as 'using a key', then retranslated it back at the end as front or rear, then you are simply ignoring everything in the statements.
Gerry said he used a key. Then he said Matthew went in by the patio doors. Then he said Kate used a key.
Then Kate said she used the patio door, with Gerry present at the interview.
Then (10th May) Gerry changed it to using the patio doors. No key.
We have given a statement about a crime occurring in Iberia. That statement was signed to confirm it was accurate, because it was. It contained the pertinent facts.
Goodness me, they must have really wanted to raise suspicions against themselves.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 05:31:55 PM
I have no problem with those who disbelieve Amaral.
However, saying he hasn't a clue, is ridiculous.
He was there on the scene, and we simply do not know the entire contents of the police files.
As to those who criticize Amaral's ethics or intelligence, well that is hardly surprising , they are hardly going to shower him with praise.
amarals analysis of the evidence is totally flawed...a fact you wish to ignore... i have pointed out clearly where it is flawed...thats why i beleive he doesnt have a clue
i believe maddie was abducted based on the evidence which I have explainned point by point
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 05:38:24 PM
amaral talks of maddie overhearing her father speaking ....then she falls and dies..how ridiculous is taht then 2 hrs is needed for cadaver odour to develop for the dogs to alert...does he undersatnd anything...obviously not
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 28, 2017, 05:40:54 PM
amarals analysis of the evidence is totally flawed...a fact you wish to ignore... i have pointed out clearly where it is flawed...thats why i beleive he doesnt have a clue
i believe maddie was abducted based on the evidence which I have explainned point by point
You haven't explained with cites why Madeleine, in your view was 'abducted'.
You have merely given your opinion.
I refer to Angelo's post, 216, on this thread.
That is in my view, an accurate summation of the situation.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2017, 05:44:48 PM
Unless you think the translator misunderstood Gerry saying front or rear as 'using a key', then retranslated it back at the end as front or rear, then you are simply ignoring everything in the statements.
Gerry said he used a key. Then he said Matthew went in by the patio doors. Then he said Kate used a key.
Then Kate said she used the patio door, with Gerry present at the interview.
Then (10th May) Gerry changed it to using the patio doors. No key.
We have given a statement about a crime occurring in Iberia. That statement was signed to confirm it was accurate, because it was. It contained the pertinent facts.
No. My question is whether the layout of the flat was established (with the PJ officer and the interpreter) prior to the interview. If so, it doesn't appear in the initial statement. If not, confusion as to which door was referred to could be a plausible explanation.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2017, 06:02:08 PM
There's only one KEY door.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2017, 06:07:23 PM
I truly do not know how I am going to get myself through one hour of Goncalo's 2017 apologia. With an effort I have managed to reach 2:13 of the introduction.
This passes as serious television in Portugal? WOW %#&%4%
1:29 There are body odours and corpse fluid ... o que? 1:38 It gives you an idea, as the expert said, that the body was here, a few minutes here, lying on the floor before leaving to anywhere else. o que? 1:55 The body when it was placed in that trunk had to come from a place where it was frozen. o que?
Where were the "body odours"? Where was the "body fluid"? What "expert"? What "trunk"? What "freezer"? Onde?
2:07 Where is justice for this child?
Which is probably a very good question to ask. Not I think by the man who has striven with every sinew of his being for over ten years to prevent any one finding out what may have happened to her ... so maybe more appropriate to ask of that man.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2017, 06:13:02 PM
That video is hard work and not actually worth the effort since it is mostly rollox with a few outstanding fibs thrown in, all of which we have heard before. In my not so humble opinion.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2017, 06:52:27 PM
That video is hard work and not actually worth the effort since it is mostly rollox with a few outstanding fibs thrown in, all of which we have heard before. In my not so humble opinion.
Can I ask, Eleanor, have you read his (on-line) book?
If so, is the video much different from the book?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 28, 2017, 06:58:24 PM
Can I ask, Eleanor, have you read his (on-line) book?
If so, is the video much different from the book?
May I beg your indulgence? No, I have not read his poxy book, on line or otherwise, so I can't help you.
But the best bits, or the worst bits, whichever way you look at it, are splattered absolutely everywhere, except for the Coffin Thingy, which he probably hadn't thought of at the time. I bet he wishes he had.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 28, 2017, 07:52:12 PM
I truly do not know how I am going to get myself through one hour of Goncalo's 2017 apologia. With an effort I have managed to reach 2:13 of the introduction.
This passes as serious television in Portugal? WOW %#&%4%
1:29 There are body odours and corpse fluid ... o que? 1:38 It gives you an idea, as the expert said, that the body was here, a few minutes here, lying on the floor before leaving to anywhere else. o que? 1:55 The body when it was placed in that trunk had to come from a place where it was frozen. o que?
Where were the "body odours"? Where was the "body fluid"? What "expert"? What "trunk"? What "freezer"? Onde?
2:07 Where is justice for this child?
Which is probably a very good question to ask. Not I think by the man who has striven with every sinew of his being for over ten years to prevent any one finding out what may have happened to her ... so maybe more appropriate to ask of that man.
Reading upwards of the thread (which is never the best way).
Just read this post of Brietta's
What's to say?
In Portugal, evidently, you can spout any garbage you like, call it a 'theory' and profit from it.
Depressing (beyond words)!
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2017, 08:51:30 AM
Well. Some people really seem to hate Amaral don't they? He's 'blatantly dishonest', libelous, an absolute idiot, rubbish, lies, tripe, disgraceful, biased.
Some people claim the moral high ground when they condemn others for questioning the McCanns online. No-one on this forum has attacked the McCanns with such savagery in my opinion.
It seems that they don't actually object to vitriol, bile and hatred. As long as the target is Amaral it's fine.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2017, 08:57:24 AM
Well. Some people really seem to hate Amaral don't they? He's 'blatantly dishonest', libelous, an absolute idiot, rubbish, lies, tripe, disgraceful, biased.
Some people claim the moral high ground when they condemn others for questioning the McCanns online. No-one on this forum has attacked the McCanns with such savagery in my opinion.
It seems that they don't actually object to vitriol, bile and hatred. As long as the target is Amaral it's fine.
This is an exaggeration. No one hates Amaral, nor are our opinions vitriol and bile.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 08:59:30 AM
Well. Some people really seem to hate Amaral don't they? He's 'blatantly dishonest', libelous, an absolute idiot, rubbish, lies, tripe, disgraceful, biased.
Some people claim the moral high ground when they condemn others for questioning the McCanns online. No-one on this forum has attacked the McCanns with such savagery in my opinion.
It seems that they don't actually object to vitriol, bile and hatred. As long as the target is Amaral it's fine.
That G-Unit represents IMO, a very accurate appraisal of the situation.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2017, 09:28:36 AM
Well. Some people really seem to hate Amaral don't they? He's 'blatantly dishonest', libelous, an absolute idiot, rubbish, lies, tripe, disgraceful, biased.
Some people claim the moral high ground when they condemn others for questioning the McCanns online. No-one on this forum has attacked the McCanns with such savagery in my opinion.
It seems that they don't actually object to vitriol, bile and hatred. As long as the target is Amaral it's fine.
I don't 'do' hate - and you must have a very strange idea of what constitutes 'hate' if you think those example you give above prove 'hatred'. Amaral is dishonest - and has a criminal record to prove it. The lies he tells in the video confirm his dishonesty to be ongoing IMO. Strange as it may seem to you - I don't admire corrupt policemen one little bit.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2017, 09:43:25 AM
This all sounds relatively well balanced to me. Jolly good show.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2017, 10:21:14 AM
I truly do not know how I am going to get myself through one hour of Goncalo's 2017 apologia. With an effort I have managed to reach 2:13 of the introduction.
This passes as serious television in Portugal? WOW %#&%4%
1:29 There are body odours and corpse fluid ... o que? 1:38 It gives you an idea, as the expert said, that the body was here, a few minutes here, lying on the floor before leaving to anywhere else. o que? 1:55 The body when it was placed in that trunk had to come from a place where it was frozen. o que?
Where were the "body odours"? Where was the "body fluid"? What "expert"? What "trunk"? What "freezer"? Onde?
2:07 Where is justice for this child?
Which is probably a very good question to ask. Not I think by the man who has striven with every sinew of his being for over ten years to prevent any one finding out what may have happened to her ... so maybe more appropriate to ask of that man.
The video is awash with disinformation IMO. No wonder there are people in PT who think the McCanns are guilty.
For example: According to Amaral - another reason why the PJ didn't believe JT's sighting of Tannerman - was because it was too 'strange; for her to have taken the route she claimed she took to get back to her apartment - and in their opinion she would have taken the 'obvious' route up the pathway at the rear of the apartments and gone in through the patio doors - as that was the quickest way.
It would seem by that comment that he didn't even know that the patio doors were locked and could not be unlocked from the outside, meaning that the only entry possible was via the main doors. He then calls Gerry a liar for confirming that fact.
IMO he is just proving in this video what an 'expert' he is at twisting and distorting evidence to fit his own agenda.
If that's not the case then IMO the only other alternative is that he was one profoundly incompetent policeman.
Either way it was bad news for for Madeleine and her family when he took on the case. AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 10:24:29 AM
The video is awash with disinformation IMO. No wonder there are people in PT who think the McCanns are guilty.
For example: According to Amaral - another reason why the PJ didn't believe JT's sighting of Tannerman - was because it was too 'strange; for her to have taken the route she claimed she took to get back to her apartment - and in their opinion she would have taken the 'obvious' route up the pathway at the rear of the apartments and gone in through the patio doors - as that was the quickest way.
It would seem by that comment that he didn't even know that the patio doors were locked and could not be unlocked from the outside, meaning that the only entry possible was via the main doors. He then calls Gerry a liar for confirming that fact.
IMO he is just proving in this video what an 'expert' he is at twisting and distorting evidence to fit his own agenda.
If that's not the case then IMO the only other alternative is that he was one profoundly incompetent policeman.
Either way it was bad news for for Madeleine and her family when he took on the case. AIMHO
I would say the perception in Portugal, is the lack of comprehension among the Portuguese people in regard to the McCann's behaviour.
Likewise, before any one starts up again, Madeleine was searched for by many people after she disappeared, and for some time after.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 10:32:47 AM
Well. Some people really seem to hate Amaral don't they? He's 'blatantly dishonest', libelous, an absolute idiot, rubbish, lies, tripe, disgraceful, biased.
Some people claim the moral high ground when they condemn others for questioning the McCanns online. No-one on this forum has attacked the McCanns with such savagery in my opinion.
It seems that they don't actually object to vitriol, bile and hatred. As long as the target is Amaral it's fine.
pointing out lies is not hate...its fact
instead of personal attacks on those who have made valid criticisms perhaps you could answer the points I have made...you cant because they are genuine
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2017, 12:23:13 PM
The video is awash with disinformation IMO. No wonder there are people in PT who think the McCanns are guilty.
For example: According to Amaral - another reason why the PJ didn't believe JT's sighting of Tannerman - was because it was too 'strange; for her to have taken the route she claimed she took to get back to her apartment - and in their opinion she would have taken the 'obvious' route up the pathway at the rear of the apartments and gone in through the patio doors - as that was the quickest way.
It would seem by that comment that he didn't even know that the patio doors were locked and could not be unlocked from the outside, meaning that the only entry possible was via the main doors. He then calls Gerry a liar for confirming that fact.
IMO he is just proving in this video what an 'expert' he is at twisting and distorting evidence to fit his own agenda.
If that's not the case then IMO the only other alternative is that he was one profoundly incompetent policeman.
Either way it was bad news for for Madeleine and her family when he took on the case. AIMHO
Well said. 8((()*/
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on May 29, 2017, 12:55:21 PM
I know it is really soul destroying wading through what I have found to be ill informed and plain daft material ... and I'm not even through the intro yet ... but please may we return to the topic ~ CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles Thank you
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2017, 01:03:52 PM
I know it is really soul destroying wading through what I have found to be ill informed and plain daft material ... and I'm not even through the intro yet ... but please may we return to the topic ~ CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles Thank you
I think the subtitles are to be questioned? Did Amaral really say that one of the Mccann's friends had a fetish for bathing children or can that be attributed to the translator or the subtitle editing?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 01:05:53 PM
I think the subtitles are to be questioned? Did Amaral really say that one of the Mccann's friends had a fetish for bathing children or can that be attributed to the translator or the subtitle editing?
i dont think the subtitles are innaccurate.....on the actual programme there are wordings indicating cadaver odour and blood vestiges
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 01:07:00 PM
I know it is really soul destroying wading through what I have found to be ill informed and plain daft material ... and I'm not even through the intro yet ... but please may we return to the topic ~ CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles Thank you
the question is does amaral actually believe all this rubbish...
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 01:07:03 PM
Amaral was there in Portugal at the time.
He will be aware of more of the background of the case unlike us as we do not have the full facts of the case at our disposal.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2017, 01:14:47 PM
Amaral was there in Portugal at the time, unlike you.
He will be aware of more of the background of the case, and you, like the rest of us, do not have the full facts of the case at your disposal.
you are totally missing the point.amaral is making claims that are total fabrication.....several other posters are saying the same...you need to face facts .....the facts amaral is relying on are not true...they are basically blatant lies...unless he really does not understand the evidence...which would be astonishing
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2017, 01:16:50 PM
you are totally missing the point.amaral is making claims that are total fabrication.....several other posters are saying the same...you need to face facts .....the facts amaral is relying on are not true...they are basically blatant lies...unless he really does not understand the evidence...which would be astonishing
Do you know all the facts relating to the case, other than those available from the released files ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 01:26:14 PM
People can decide for themselves what they believe is true or false.
None of us on here, have access to the full case files.
The irony of this thread, and from elsewhere, is that more guests reading the forum will know of the videos existence.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 01:28:52 PM
People can decide for themselves what they believe is true or false.
None of us on here, have access to the full case files.
The irony of this thread, and from elsewhere, is that more guests reading the forum will know of the videos existence.
the thread is about this video...it exposes amaral as a person who has a very poor understanding of the evidence...to use your words...he doesnt have a clue
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2017, 01:30:29 PM
I think the subtitles are to be questioned? Did Amaral really say that one of the Mccann's friends had a fetish for bathing children or can that be attributed to the translator or the subtitle editing?
Yes, he did state it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 01:39:07 PM
I have always pointed this out, lots will have been observed by investigators which never got written down.
If the Portiguese police run a pocket book system like the UK the contents are admissible as evidence but we are unlikely ever to see the content.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 29, 2017, 01:49:25 PM
Having watched the full video for a second time after reading some of the comments made on this thread, it is surprising what is revealed. It appears that damage limitation was the priority for some members of the tapas group that night and in the days which followed. Amaral states very clearly that certain members of the group did exactly the same as the McCanns and used the back or patio door entrance to gain entry to the ground floor apartments. This was denied by them all but the McCanns were caught out when it was revealed that the keys to the front door had been left on the kitchen worktop. Gerry McCann then changed his statement and admitted to having used the patio door which was left unlocked.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 01:53:50 PM
Having watched the full video for a second time after reading some of the comments made on this thread, it is surprising what is revealed. It appears that damage limitation was the priority for some members of the tapas group that night and in the days which followed. Amaral states very clearly that certain members of the group did exactly the same as the McCanns and used the back or patio door entrance to gain entry to the ground floor apartments. This was denied by them all but the McCanns were caught out when it was revealed that the keys to the front door had been left on the kitchen worktop. Gerry McCann then changed his statement and admitted to having used the patio door which was left unlocked.
It is more likely that gerry corrected his statement that had been recorded incorrectly rather than changing it You seem to want to ignore all the lies told in the video
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 29, 2017, 01:59:47 PM
It is more likely that gerry corrected his statement that had been recorded incorrectly rather than changing it You seem to want to ignore all the lies told in the video
No, I don't buy it. Amaral wasn't stupid, he could see through the bullshit. And as for checking on the children every half hour, we know that was a fabrication too.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2017, 02:04:51 PM
it seems amaral feels he can say what he likes about anyone
He can. The Supreme Court of Portugal said so. I but only wonder if they realise what a can of worms they have opened.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2017, 02:14:48 PM
Personally, I would doubt any video that HiDeHo had messed about with. But on this occasion she appears to have exposed Amaral rather than to have aided him.
Besides, apart from the odd punch up, this is a good Thread.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 29, 2017, 02:24:27 PM
I have always pointed this out, lots will have been observed by investigators which never got written down.
Swerving back on topic, Amaral didn't even realise that Aurial Gaspar and his wife made separate statements, or that Aurial's statement could not be more different in content from his wife's.
According to Amaral, the Gaspars made 'joint statements'.
The PJ, like the English police and (I dare say) police forces around the world take individual statements from individual witnesses.
In the particular instance of the statements made by Katriana Gaspar and her husband, that point is vital, because their statements could not be more different.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2017, 02:39:12 PM
Swerving back on topic, Amaral didn't even realise that Aurial Gaspar and his wife made separate statements, or that Aurial's statement could not be more different in content from his wife's.
According to Amaral, the Gaspars made 'joint statements'.
The PJ, like the English police and (I dare say) police forces around the world take individual statements from individual witnesses.
In the particular instance of the statements made by Katriana Gaspar and her husband, that point is vital, because their statements could not be more different.
I do so agree. But certain factions would really rather not discuss the vast differences in those two statements.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 29, 2017, 03:16:35 PM
Swerving back on topic, Amaral didn't even realise that Aurial Gaspar and his wife made separate statements, or that Aurial's statement could not be more different in content from his wife's.
According to Amaral, the Gaspars made 'joint statements'.
The PJ, like the English police and (I dare say) police forces around the world take individual statements from individual witnesses.
In the particular instance of the statements made by Katriana Gaspar and her husband, that point is vital, because their statements could not be more different.
Except in one significant detail.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2017, 03:23:13 PM
Having watched the full video for a second time after reading some of the comments made on this thread, it is surprising what is revealed. It appears that damage limitation was the priority for some members of the tapas group that night and in the days which followed. Amaral states very clearly that certain members of the group did exactly the same as the McCanns and used the back or patio door entrance to gain entry to the ground floor apartments. This was denied by them all but the McCanns were caught out when it was revealed that the keys to the front door had been left on the kitchen worktop. Gerry McCann then changed his statement and admitted to having used the patio door which was left unlocked.
The group members did use that exit at times. According to them they only did it when someone remained in the apartment, however. Only the Paynes couldn't use the passageway, I think, although some think it was possible to access the upper floor apartments from those gates opening onto the passageway;
CT'There were some, but that small gate...it also gives access to the apartments above. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2017, 03:24:31 PM
amaral is making claims on the video which are patently untrue...the dogs have not helped solve 200 cases here and in the us...and there are more untrue claims...the video is full of them
I think your ability to exaggerate is only surpassed by your own inability to recognise the evidence. I have just viewed the video and I can see nothing wrong with it. Amaral was right to go through the various scenarios and point out that abduction belongs in the realms of fantasyland. I don't agree with his frozen cadaver theory but it is his theory and he is free to speak about it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 03:47:18 PM
I think your ability to exaggerate is only surpassed by your own inability to recognise the evidence. I have just viewed the video and I can see nothing wrong with it. Amaral was right to go through the various scenarios and point out that abduction belongs in the realms of fantasyland. I don't agree with his frozen cadaver theory but it is his theory and he is free to speak about it.
But it's not just my ability it's several posters and you have not been able to manage to answer one of the lies I have pointed out The video is full of them
If you want to ignore the facts then that's your prerogative.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 04:03:15 PM
I think your ability to exaggerate is only surpassed by your own inability to recognise the evidence. I have just viewed the video and I can see nothing wrong with it. Amaral was right to go through the various scenarios and point out that abduction belongs in the realms of fantasyland. I don't agree with his frozen cadaver theory but it is his theory and he is free to speak about it.
can you really not see how much fantasy amaral relies on to support his views...i find that astonishing...its not just me...several posters have highlighted the rubbish in the video yet you can see nothing wrong with it.... do you believe the lie taht the dogs have helped solve 200 cases.....perhaps you do
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2017, 04:50:05 PM
can you really not see how much fantasy amaral relies on to support his views...i find that astonishing...its not just me...several posters have highlighted the rubbish in the video yet you can see nothing wrong with it.... do you believe the lie taht the dogs have helped solve 200 cases.....perhaps you do
Is that the best example you can come up with, something which Amaral never even stated in the video. Are you just criticising for the sake of it as you obviously haven't viewed the full video?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2017, 05:10:39 PM
Indeed. One wonders what his next ridiculous theory will be. (imo)
In my ever so not humble opinion, I never have humble opinions, Goncalo Amaral is making a laughing stock of The Supreme Court who so bravely supported his right to Free Speach against the rights to a reputation of a couple of foreigners. Nothing all that difficult to understand there. But did they seriously think that he would shut up? Or would he come up with even more outlandish "Theories", so bizarre to beggar belief? Very silly of them if they did.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 05:11:52 PM
Is that the best example you can come up with, something which Amaral never even stated in the video. Are you just criticising for the sake of it as you obviously haven't viewed the full video?
ive already posted several..read the thread...how abut the dog maked corpse odour on cuddle cat stated as fact
amaral has stated the 200 claim in another video...ad it was repeated here
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2017, 05:12:49 PM
Indeed. One wonders what his next ridiculous theory will be. (imo)
Once it has been established what happened to Maddie and Amaral has been shown to be wrong then you can call his theses ridiculous but until that time his opinion based on his expert knowledge are as valid as anyone elses. In fact, his opinion has a higher value as he was there, he saw the twists and turns, the changed statements, the invented claims and the excuses.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on May 29, 2017, 05:13:51 PM
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1053
Amaral states that Jane Tanner was in outside her apartment smoking a cigarette as Jez was returning home therefore could not possibly have seen Tannerman in the way she said.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2017, 05:21:27 PM
ive already posted several..read the thread...how abut the dog maked corpse odour on cuddle cat stated as fact
amaral has stated the 200 claim in another video...ad it was repeated here
He is right to claim a hit on the 'teddy bear' otherwise known as cuddlecat because Grime himself stated that Eddie alerted to the toy. A dog which is trained to find cadaver odour alerts to a missing childs soft toy, clothing, in apartment 5a, outside beneath the balcony and to the child's parent's hire car. Are you really asking everyone to believe every single one of these alerts was just a coincidence.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on May 29, 2017, 05:22:58 PM
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1131
Amaral changing the direction of Tannerman based on where he says JT was standing, then placing the suspect at the place of the Smith family sighting (thus clearing Murat).
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2017, 05:24:09 PM
Once it has been established what happened to Maddie and Amaral has been shown to be wrong then you can call his theses ridiculous but until that time his opinion based on his expert knowledge are as valid as anyone else's.
I suppose the same argument could be used by flat earth supporters. They are still waiting for proof that the world is not flat. If you choose to believe there is any credibility in the coffin theory, fine by me. I choose to call his theories ridiculous free speech and all that!!
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2017, 05:24:53 PM
Amaral states that Jane Tanner was in outside her apartment smoking a cigarette as Jez was returning home therefore could not possibly have seen Tannerman in the way she said.
Just so and what's more both Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins agree. According to Amaral, Tanner went up the footpath behind the apartments and entered her apartment using the patio door. He claims it was from her front corridor that she saw a man carrying a child, a man identified by Redwood as probably being an innocent tourist. Jez Wilkins later recalled seeing a woman dressed in purple standing there at 5d smoking.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 05:28:29 PM
He is right to claim a hit on the 'teddy bear' otherwise known as cuddlecat because Grime himself stated that Eddie alerted to the toy. A dog which is trained to find cadaver odour alerts to a missing childs soft toy, clothing, in apartment 5a, outside beneath the balcony and to the child's parent's hire car. Are you really asking everyone to believe every single one of these alerts was just a coincidence.
im telling everyone that without forensic confirmation none of those alerts have any evidential reliability
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2017, 05:34:35 PM
he is telling lies to say that the dog signalled corpse odor....martin grime has not confirmed that and was asked that direct question
mark harrison says no inference can be drawn from the alerts
amaral is telling lies. combined with the 200 claim it gives a totally false interpretation
Amaral is right to look at the various possibilities and one of them was that Eddie did alert to cadaver odour. The justification behind the CMTV programme was to look at the evidence and that is what Amaral did. The dog alerts are evidence just as the changed stories, the changed statements and the mysterious unaccounted for telephone call between the parents while both were supposed to be sat together in the tapas bar at 10pm.
Can you explain this telephone call or why Gerry and Jez never saw Tanner as she squeezed past Gerry on a well lit street?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2017, 05:37:00 PM
Just so and what's more both Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins agree. According to Amaral, Tanner went up the footpath behind the apartments and entered her apartment using the patio door. He claims it was from her front corridor that she saw a man carrying a child, a man identified by Redwood as probably being an innocent tourist. Jez Wilkins later recalled seeing a woman dressed in purple standing there at 5d smoking.
Neither JW nor GM saw JT go past so they could not verify which route she took. JW's statement does not place JT outside her apartment on his final journey back - it was when he went out at around 8.15pm.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2017, 05:51:32 PM
Neither JW nor GM saw JT go past so they could not verify which route she took. JW's statement does not place JT outside her apartment on his final journey back - it was when he went out at around 8.15pm. JT's apartment did not have a front balcony.
Amaral stated it did so is he wrong on that point?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 29, 2017, 06:15:51 PM
The Gaspar Statements were translated into Portuguese, and then translated back into English before we ever saw them. And Mrs. Gaspar had no idea that what were her private suppositions would ever see the light of day. And they were just suppositions. She never stated anything as Fact.
Meanwhile, her husband had an entirely different idea of what happened.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2017, 06:20:36 PM
Both Gaspers made a statement to the English police reporting what occurred in Majorca with the Paynes and the McCanns. They came forward and spoke out when they heard about Maddie's disappearance. The statements were sent to Amaral as he was about to leave the investigation, he states that they were merely included within a big pile of other documents without being identified as being of special interest. Ricardo Paiva witnessed the events too and stated as much.
Which part isn't true?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 06:21:45 PM
His knowledge of the case and his understanding of the evidence is very poor
For someone who has never been to Praua da Luz or met anyone involved in the case you offer a lot of knowledge about it? I think Amaral raises many interesting points about the claimed abduction and has more or less rubbished it entirely.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 06:30:05 PM
For someone who has never been to Praua da Luz or met anyone involved in the case you offer a lot of knowledge about it?
I don't need to go to PDL to know that the dogs have not helped solve 200 cases That calpol is not an antihistamine That cadaver odor has not been confirmed That the dna did not provide a match to maddie
If I Understand all that why doesn't the lead detective Perhaps you could answer that
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2017, 06:36:29 PM
I don't need to go to PDL to know that the dogs have not helped solve 200 cases That calpol is not an antihistamine That cadaver odor has not been confirmed That the dna did not provide a match to maddie
If I Understand all that why doesn't the lead detective Perhaps you could answer that
Maybe you can also explain why the twins were out cold and had to be monitored constantly the rest of the night?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 06:37:50 PM
I suppose the same argument could be used by flat earth supporters. They are still waiting for proof that the world is not flat. If you choose to believe there is any credibility in the coffin theory, fine by me. I choose to call his theories ridiculous free speech and all that!!
Waiting for proof of a flat earth.
Sounds like waiting for proof of abduction.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2017, 06:42:52 PM
I'm a bit disgusted by the nonchalance with which a man's reputation can be sullied in a document released to the internet by Duarte Levy.
I'm a bit perplexed that having witnessed such an aberration supposedly directed toward an infant ... wasn't there something about finger sucking too? the supposedly concerned adult allowed bathing arrangements for the children to proceed unhindered.
It is precisely that detail that causes me to call into question, not so much Mrs Gaspar; more, the accuracy of the statement attributed to her we read on line.
How many mothers, harbouring suspicions about a man Mrs Gaspar, by the statement we read on line, harboured against DP, would allow him anywhere near her daughter, let alone allow him to bath her?
I suggest, not many.
Amaral's version of the statement (of Mrs Gaspar's) in his book does not reflect what her statement (as we read it on line) says.
And I am far from convinced that the words ascribed to Mrs G (in the on-line statement) reflect what she said.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 07:22:43 PM
It is precisely that detail that causes me to call into question, not so much Mrs Gaspar; more, the accuracy of the statement attributed to her we read on line.
How many mothers, harbouring suspicions about a man Mrs Gaspar, by the statement we read on line, harboured against .... ......, would allow him anywhere near her daughter, let alone allow him to bath her?
I suggest, not many.
Amaral's version of the statement (of Mrs Gaspar's) in his book does not reflect what her statement (as we read it on line) says.
And I am far from convinced that the words ascribed to Mrs G (in the on-line statement) reflect what she said.
So when was Kate McCann made aware of what the Gasper's said, especially Mrs. Gasper ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 29, 2017, 07:26:05 PM
Tell me, do you hold the McCann's accountable in any way for their actions, in failing to protect their children ?
They claimed to have regularly checked their children.
As far as I know, on the record, we only have one instance, for each of them, doing that.
Yes I know they had many days in court, quite sad that such a disgraceful book (imo) was judged to me more important than their right not to be unjustly accused.
Why do you continually bring every debate/discussion back to the same question which has been discussed time after time..............deflection I assume.
We are discussing Amaral's video and my particular interest in this discussion is whether it is morally correct for him to make his accustions and bizarre (imo )theories
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 07:33:02 PM
Yes I know they had many days in court, quite sad that such a disgraceful book (imo) was judged to me more important than their right not to be unjustly accused.
Why do you continually bring every debate/discussion back to the same question which has been discussed time after time..............deflection I assume.
We are discussing Amaral's video and my particular interest in this discussion is whether it is morally correct for him to make his accustions and bizarre (imo )theories
Indeed.
The whole point being of course that it is 'in your opinion'.
So what next.
You know full well, there is very little I will agree with you in this case.
So you can call that an impasse.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 07:37:50 PM
Yes I know they had many days in court, quite sad that such a disgraceful book (imo) was judged to me more important than their right not to be unjustly accused.
Why do you continually bring every debate/discussion back to the same question which has been discussed time after time..............deflection I assume.
We are discussing Amaral's video and my particular interest in this discussion is whether it is morally correct for him to make his accustions and bizarre (imo )theories
Morally correct? What on earth does that mean?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 07:44:17 PM
Well in my moral compass it is wrong to make accusations of wrong doing without proof.
So you have decided that proof (not evidence) is required before accusations can be made? I thought policemen gathered evidence, prosecutors decided whether to charge (accuse) someone and then the courts decided if the evidence was enough to prove wrongdoing.
What the video contains is evidence which Amaral thinks points to something other than abduction.
How does your moral compass deal with the behaviour of the McCann's PI's and the UK media, I wonder?
So you have decided that proof (not evidence) is required before accusations can be made? I thought policemen gathered evidence, prosecutors decided whether to charge (accuse) someone and then the courts decided if the evidence was enough to prove wrongdoing.
What the video contains is evidence which Amaral thinks points to something other than abduction.
How does your moral compass deal with the behaviour of the McCann's PI's and the UK media, I wonder?
So you have decided that proof (not evidence) is required before accusations can be made? I thought policemen gathered evidence, prosecutors decided whether to charge (accuse) someone and then the courts decided if the evidence was enough to prove wrongdoing.
What the video contains is evidence which Amaral thinks points to something other than abduction.
How does your moral compass deal with the behaviour of the McCann's PI's and the UK media, I wonder?
Yes policemen gather evidence, prosecutors decide whether to charge someone but before that happens do the policemen write a book with their theories. I think not.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 29, 2017, 08:27:36 PM
Yes policemen gather evidence, prosecutors decide whether to charge someone but before that happens do the policemen write a book with their theories. I think not.
They do in Portugal, Erngath, do pay attention ....
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 08:32:41 PM
They do in Portugal, Erngath, do pay attention ....
Noted.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on May 29, 2017, 10:00:43 PM
The information portrayed in Amaral's latest offering is not consistent with the PJ files in many respects.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 10:01:05 PM
We are discussing the video and Amaral states things that are not true Amaral does not have access to all the facts of the case He is no longer involved
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 10:01:39 PM
We are discussing the video and Amaral states things that are not true Amaral does not have access to all the facts of the case He is no longer involved
How do you know what info he had access to.
You don't, of course.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 10:13:58 PM
We know that, according to the info provided in the public domain.
There will of course be information we don'the know.
Do you know what information Amaral had access to.
Rhetorical question, of course.
Amaral is supporting his claim by falsely distorting evidence that is in the public domain We know what he is claiming is blatantly false It is easily shown to be false
You are making an assumption that there is further evidence Pure speculation based on nothing
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 10:17:03 PM
Amaral is supporting his claim by falsely distorting evidence that is in the public domain We know what he is claiming is blatantly false It is easily shown to be false
You are making an assumption that there is further evidence Pure speculation based on nothing
That is exactly what you are doing.
You simply do not know all the facts in the case.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 29, 2017, 10:17:40 PM
Surely SY must be aware of his theories. Either they have dismissed them, investigated them further or ignored them. I would never claim any police force is infallible but have difficulty believing the latter.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 10:18:50 PM
many many many many people around the world agree with you
Indeed Carlymichelle, that is the situation, IMHO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 10:53:37 PM
My views on this case are determined solely by my understanding of the evidence Claiming I'm somehow emotionally involved or part of the family is quite pathetic and shows how poor the posters judgement is
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 29, 2017, 10:56:04 PM
My views on this case are determined self by my understanding of the evidence Claiming I'm somehow emote I vied or part of the family is quite pathetic and shows how poor the posters judgement is
You choose to make your comments and give opinions.
There is no given right that people will or should agree with you.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 29, 2017, 10:57:31 PM
My views on this case are determined solely by my understanding of the evidence Claiming I'm somehow emotionally involved or part of the family is quite pathetic and shows how poor the posters judgement is
I am sure they are.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 29, 2017, 11:00:15 PM
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 30, 2017, 12:00:54 AM
Amaral led the investigation, he was party to everything which occurred, as PJ Coordinator he liaised with the British police and the Forensic Science Service, he saw the reports which came in following the disappearance, the dog inspections, he oversaw the witnesses and arguidos being questioned, he saw their reactions and you in your wisdom think him poorly informed. @)(++(*
I would say he is probably the most informed person in the entire investigation.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 12:08:06 AM
Amaral led the investigation, he was party to everything which occurred, as PJ Coordinator he liaised with the British police and the Forensic Science Service, he saw the reports which came in following the disappearance, he oversaw the witnesses and arguidos being questioned, he saw their reactions and you in your wisdom think him poorly informed. @)(++(*
He doesnt understand the evidence and as far as I know never met the mccanns So yes poorly informed
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 30, 2017, 12:13:25 AM
He doesnt understand the evidence and as far as I know never met the mccanns So yes poorly informed
He understands it very well in my opinion. As for the suspects, he saw them being inteviewed which was part of his job description as Coordinator.
Amaral was a very experienced senior detective in May 2007 but admits to being naive when political interference started to dictate in what direction the case should go.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 12:19:59 AM
Amaral is using them as proof He doesnt understand the evidence
No he didn't, he made several suggestions as to what occurred. He has never claimed that any one specific scenario took place and that is where your argument falls down. Amaral is smart, he gives people the facts and lets them decide who lied and what did or did not take place
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on May 30, 2017, 02:22:49 AM
No he didn't, he made several suggestions as to what occurred. He has never claimed that any one specific scenario took place and that is where your argument falls down. Amaral is smart, he gives people the facts and lets them decide who lied and what did or did not take place
Oh, I see. Amaral gives people the facts and then lets them decide. And if that isn't double dutch then God help us all.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on May 30, 2017, 03:12:27 AM
Amaral led the investigation, he was party to everything which occurred, as PJ Coordinator he liaised with the British police and the Forensic Science Service, he saw the reports which came in following the disappearance, the dog inspections, he oversaw the witnesses and arguidos being questioned, he saw their reactions and you in your wisdom think him poorly informed. @)(++(*
I would say he is probably the most informed person in the entire investigation.
I have to disagree with that Angelo. As he never met, spoke to, or interviewed the McCanns himself - then imo he certainly was not ''party to everything which occurred'' - and as interviews were not recorded - then all the information he received came to him second hand - and also 'opinions' of the McCanns could only always be other people's opinions - not his own.
Never having made personal contact with them meant he could not make his own assessments of them - both as genuinely distraught parents or as credible witnesses. That put him at a disadvantage IMO.
Why he chose not to make his own assessments of them is a mystery to me. AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2017, 09:43:26 AM
I have to disagree with that Angelo. As he never met, spoke to, or interviewed the McCanns himself - then imo he certainly was not ''party to everything which occurred'' - and as interviews were not recorded - then all the information he received came to him second hand - and also 'opinions' of the McCanns could only always be other people's opinions - not his own.
Never having made personal contact with them meant he could not make his own assessments of them - both as genuinely distraught parents or as credible witnesses. That put him at a disadvantage IMO.
Why he chose not to make his own assessments of them is a mystery to me. AIMHO
Amaral didn't even know that the FSS wrote only one report.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2017, 10:02:02 AM
Amaral didn't even know that the FSS wrote only one report.
It may be you that is wrong, not Amaral;
According to a preliminary, not final report made by the Forensic Science Service (FSS) of Birmingham, England http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2017, 10:48:37 AM
Now tell me ferryman, once and for all, what would happen to the Mccanns, if it was shown that an abduction never happened
See my edit above.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on May 30, 2017, 11:19:28 AM
May we remain with the topic of the thread please.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2017, 11:35:29 AM
If Amaral is correct there was interference in the investigation from the start by the British Ambassador, who stressed the abduction theory. If Colin Sutton is correct SY was never tasked with investigating all aspects of the case; the parents were off-limits before the investigation began.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2017, 11:37:51 AM
If Amaral is correct there was interference in the investigation from the start by the British Ambassador, who stressed the abduction theory. If Colin Sutton is correct SY was never tasked with investigating all aspects of the case; the parents were off-limits before the investigation began.
Amaral was wrong.
And there was no 'interference', just support for English nationals in strife abroad.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 11:39:12 AM
To all posters:
I have received a number of messages of concern relating to this thread with one moderator at least suggesting I delete it. I won't but I will edit it shortly in order to remove any silliness.
This is a unique opportunity to study Gonçalo Amaral's thinking on this case, from the horse's mouth sort of speak albeit by subtitles. By all means tear the theories apart but do it logically and sensibly without resorting to inappropriate behaviour or posting goading comments. Alternatively, feel free to support Amaral and provide any background information which you feel does exactly that, again, please do so constructively and without the need to snipe or make disparaging remarks.
Should any poster ignore this advice, sanctions will be invoked. TY
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 30, 2017, 12:09:37 PM
The shelved enquiry established that Kate and Gerry had/have no case to answer, and Operation Grange (is attempting to!) progress matters from there.
"But therefore we do not possess any minimally solid and rigorous foundation in order to be able to state, with the safety that is requested, which was or were the exact and precise crime(s) that was or were practised on the person of the minor Madeleine McCann - apart from the supposed but dismissed crime of exposure or abandonment - or to hold anyone responsible over its authorship".
So lumping your theory in with what was writen in the Legal Summary we have the situation: "We haven't a clue what happened or who did it but the McCanns are innocent of everything, even that which we have yet to discover."
It just says at the time of archiving the process there was no one in the frame who could be charged and successfully prosecuted.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2017, 12:14:55 PM
"But therefore we do not possess any minimally solid and rigorous foundation in order to be able to state, with the safety that is requested, which was or were the exact and precise crime(s) that was or were practised on the person of the minor Madeleine McCann - apart from the supposed but dismissed crime of exposure or abandonment - or to hold anyone responsible over its authorship".
So lumping your theory in with what was writen in the Legal Summary we have the situation: "We haven't a clue what happened or who did it but the McCanns are innocent of everything, even that which we have yet to discover."
It just says at the time of archiving the process there was no one in the frame who could be charged and successfully prosecuted.
It's not known whether Madeleine was abducted to order; whether she was murdered in the apartment and taken (which would not be an abduction) or whether she was taken alive and is being held somewhere (now!)
The only (tragic) act of criminality that might negate abduction is if an intruder murdered Madeleine in the apartment and took her body with her.
What was clear (to the prosecutors) was that the McCanns played no part in Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 12:17:31 PM
It's not known whether Madeleine was abducted to order; whether she was murdered in the apartment and taken (which would not be an abduction) or whether she was taken alive and is being held somewhere (now!)
The only (tragic) act of criminality that might negate abduction is if an intruder murdered Madeleine in the apartment and took her body with her.
What was clear (to the prosecutors) was that the McCanns played no part in Madeleine's disappearance.
I believe the phrase used was that there was at that point (archive) no indication of their involvement, quite a different meaning. Need I again remind that they added that the parents lost the opportunity to demonstrate what they had claimed by the refusal of witnesses to partake in a reconstitution (reconstruction).
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2017, 12:19:09 PM
And there was no 'interference', just support for English nationals in strife abroad.
I don't see how you could know what was said by John Buck when he met with Encarnacao. Amaral is far more likely to know that than you are. The British Consul is the one who provides support for UK people abroad, not the Ambassador. It is quite slow usually. If, for example, you are arrested this is what you can expect;
The British embassy, high commission or consulate will contact the arrested person within 24 hours of being told about the arrest and try to visit them as soon as possible. https://www.gov.uk/help-if-you-are-arrested-abroad/y/portugal
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2017, 01:43:40 PM
I don't see how you could know what was said by John Buck when he met with Encarnacao. Amaral is far more likely to know that than you are. The British Consul is the one who provides support for UK people abroad, not the Ambassador. It is quite slow usually. If, for example, you are arrested this is what you can expect;
The British embassy, high commission or consulate will contact the arrested person within 24 hours of being told about the arrest and try to visit them as soon as possible. https://www.gov.uk/help-if-you-are-arrested-abroad/y/portugal
Your link makes the point.
It is the British way to offer consular assistance to British nationals in strife abroad.
ETA: Amaral didn't even know he was heading up a murder enquiry.
Why would you expect him to know anything else?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on May 30, 2017, 01:47:31 PM
I have at last managed to struggle through to its conclusion. "Dreadful" does not come even close to my thinking.
That this is the current account given ten years after the event by the coordinator of Madeleine McCann's case shamelessly promoting one baseless innuendo after another is extraordinary.
Ten years have passed yet the video consisted solely of the thinking of the coordinator ... much of which appears to have become distorted and corrupted by the passage of time ... which led nowhere at the time and has been relegated by further investigation.
It was actually very embarrassing to watch. Particularly having watched documentaries in which Madeleine McCann was the central figure and in which law enforcement officers retired and current gave up to date views which reflected progressions in Madeleine's case over the years.
Instead 'O Enigma' portrayed a view through the prism of one man's view of his own importance. Much of which was flawed if not totally wrong. It served no purpose for Madeleine ... and if truth be told it served no purpose for the former coordinator ... because in my opinion it laid many of his flawed approaches appallingly bare.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 01:48:37 PM
It was known by an English local that the patio door was unlocked & the reason for that by the time an article was published in the Express on 5th May 2007 - and Kate & Gerry spent most of 4th May at the police station. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic247.html
*snipped* Praia da Luz resident Mark McCarrick said the girl might have simply walked out of her room.
“The parents left the door ajar so they could keep going over and looking at her,” he said. “We are hoping that because the door was open, she just walked out.”
I missed this post on the first pass but it raises an interesting issue, was the patio door not only unlocked but 'ajar' as reported by Mr McCarrick? How did he come by this knowledge?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 01:50:12 PM
I have at last managed to struggle through to its conclusion. "Dreadful" does not come even close to my thinking.
That this is the current account given ten years after the event by the coordinator of Madeleine McCann's case shamelessly promoting one baseless innuendo after another is extraordinary.
Ten years have passed yet the video consisted solely of the thinking of the coordinator ... much of which appears to have become distorted and corrupted by the passage of time ... which led nowhere at the time and has been relegated by further investigation.
It was actually very embarrassing to watch. Particularly having watched documentaries in which Madeleine McCann was the central figure and in which law enforcement officers retired and current gave up to date views which reflected progressions in Madeleine's case over the years.
Instead 'O Enigma' portrayed a view through the prism of one man's view of his own importance. Much of which was flawed if not totally wrong. It served no purpose for Madeleine ... and if truth be told it served no purpose for the former coordinator ... because in my opinion it laid many of his flawed approaches appallingly bare.
A view I share for which no one seems to have a reply too
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2017, 02:06:10 PM
I have at last managed to struggle through to its conclusion. "Dreadful" does not come even close to my thinking.
That this is the current account given ten years after the event by the coordinator of Madeleine McCann's case shamelessly promoting one baseless innuendo after another is extraordinary.
Ten years have passed yet the video consisted solely of the thinking of the coordinator ... much of which appears to have become distorted and corrupted by the passage of time ... which led nowhere at the time and has been relegated by further investigation.
It was actually very embarrassing to watch. Particularly having watched documentaries in which Madeleine McCann was the central figure and in which law enforcement officers retired and current gave up to date views which reflected progressions in Madeleine's case over the years.
Instead 'O Enigma' portrayed a view through the prism of one man's view of his own importance. Much of which was flawed if not totally wrong. It served no purpose for Madeleine ... and if truth be told it served no purpose for the former coordinator ... because in my opinion it laid many of his flawed approaches appallingly bare.
Trouble is that because the Supreme Court has given Amaral licence to continue pouring out this bilge, it probably does serve Amaral. As (far too much!) comment on this board makes plain, so much of the flawed analysis of Amaral is either supported or nodded through as 'acceptable' by those who, despite insisting that the McCanns are guilty, have their own theories of how the McCannsdunit at variance with Amaral's theory.
But all instances (among those in the category I refer to) supporting Amaral's 'right' to say what he does.
So while I wholly agree with Brietta that no useful purpose has been served for Madeleine (or the McCanns!) I fear that Amaral's purposes have been served very well.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on May 30, 2017, 02:08:24 PM
I missed this post on the first pass but it raises an interesting issue, was the patio door not only unlocked but 'ajar' as reported by Mr McCarrick? How did he come by this knowledge?
Mark was involved with the searches but one explanation is his wife was a business partner of Bridget O'Donnell (wife of Jez) who knew of the McCanns child checking arrangements on the Wednesday night. http://portugalresident.com/making-property-purchase-an-enjoyable-experience
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 02:10:17 PM
Gerry called Kate twice. Those calls were double recorded. From memory, the first was at 23.17.
Amaral makes no bones about the first mobile call between the parents and claims they were recorded at 10pm. Yet no such record is found in the released telephone logs, can anyone explain this?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 02:12:12 PM
Amaral makes no bones about the first mobile call between the parents and claims they were recorded at 10pm. Yet no such record is found in the released telephone logs, can anyone explain this?
My explanation would be he's making it up but listening to the video this may not be exactly what he said
Or judging by the rest of his comments he may just have misunderstood something The call logs are accurate and there is no call at 10
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 02:20:53 PM
Amaral seems to be determined that the cadaver carried in the Scenic was frozen (and thawing). So I'd say a body in a freezer is really hidden. I was going to see the connection of the timing of the 3 men carrying a bag into the church and the cadaver in wagon story. Did someone note the dates? With the dialogue in Portuguese and subtitles I find it rather difficult to go through the entire video.
I don't buy the cremation story either. If Madeleine was deceased and hidden, nobody in their right mind is going to risk carrying her through the streets to a church before secreting her in a coffin. It's just bonkers imo.
If she was deceased the perpetrator would want to hide her as soon as possible and not go back.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 30, 2017, 02:24:27 PM
I don't buy the cremation story either. If Madeleine was deceased and hidden, nobody in their right mind is going to risk carrying her through the streets to a church before secreting her in a coffin. It's just bonkers imo.
If she was deceased the perpetrator would want to hide her as soon as possible and not go back.
Amaral doesn't think it's bonkers! Shows the type of mindset he has. (imo)
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2017, 02:26:03 PM
I don't buy the cremation story either. If Madeleine was deceased and hidden, nobody in their right mind is going to risk carrying her through the streets to a church before secreting her in a coffin. It's just bonkers imo.
Credit for that post.
But would you not say, John, that the fact Amaral proposed it, indicates, in addition to it being bonkers, an abandonment by Amaral of huge swathes of what Amaral lays out in his book?
Very clearly, if Madeleine was cremated in a coffin, she can't, also, have been interred on the beach, disinterred, moved somewhere in a vehicle hired 3 weeks later (etc).
Can she?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 02:27:40 PM
Amaral seems to be convinced that Madeleine's DNA was in the car, and his opinion is based on the first report from the FSS. That's the reason why he theorises about a body being stored. Is that first report in the files? I'm not sure.
Amaral insists that someone from the now defunct FSS led him to believe that they found an exact match to Madeleine in the hire car, even Sky's Martin Brunt went live on air to say the same. Question is, who told Amaral this and why did the formal results not correspond with what he had been told earlier. Were the final DNA results tampered with as he claims?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 02:29:54 PM
But would you not say, John, that the fact Amaral proposed it, indicates, in addition to it being bonkers, an abandonment by Amaral of huge swathes of what Amaral lays out in his book?
Very clearly, if Madeleine was cremated in a coffin, she can't, also, have been interred on the beach, disinterred, moved somewhere in a vehicle hired 3 weeks later (etc).
Can she?
Yes, I agree, he is proposing several theories, they can't all be right.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 03:17:55 PM
Amaral insists that someone from the now defunct FSS led him to believe that they found an exact match to Madeleine in the hire car, even Sky's Martin Brunt went live on air to say the same. Question is, who told Amaral this and why did the formal results not correspond with what he had been told earlier. Were the final DNA results tampered with as he claims?
or did amaral simply misunderstand as he has misunderstood much as we have seen in the video
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 03:21:01 PM
Well that's a new one on me I have to say... If the recollections are inaccurate then how can they be telling the truth?
I cannot accept that these doctors can barely string a sentence together in interviews of such importance but can chop, over the weeks/months, and changed things due to 'recollection'. The recollections of Jane Tanner and Kate McCann vastly improved to make an abductor story more pliable.
Tannerman certainly improved from what was originally an eggman.
He went further than that and claimed that David Payne went to 5A specifically ' to help the mother to give the children a bath'. What a big fat lie that was.
Apparently - he doesn't even know enough about the case to know that David Payne's reason for leaving the tennis courts was to go back to his own apartment to pick up his tennis gear. Gerry asked him to pop in on Kate on his way to see if she was OK. The children had already been bathed,
He also claims that Gerry said .... ...... was in 5a for half an hour. As a policeman you would think he could have worked it out for himself that it was not possible for Gerry to know how long .... ...... was in 5A - because he wasn't there, It's quite obvious that Gerry was saying how long he thought it was before .... ...... came back to play tennis after he'd got his tennis gear.
The more I read the blatent distortions and downright lies that Amaral is purporting to be 'evidence' in this video - the more relieved I am that Kate heeded her lawyers advice and didn't give him the opportunity to do the same job on her over anything she had said - had she answered those questions. AIMHO
Amaral has the right to question it because there is evidence from the McCanns that normal bath time was 6:30pm onwards in PDL.
Normal routine - return back from play area at 18:30 then baths before bed.
"The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30. Following this they returned to the apartment, the deponent opened the main door with his key and, then, the rear door through which KATE and the children entered. ----- The hygiene done, the children were put to bed about 19h30."
Gerry was at tennis on 3 May 2007 when Fiona said this in her rog interview - Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed.
"Kate and the kids, I think, as I said earlier, weren't there and, you know, they, as Gerry said, were just absolutely knackered and Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed."
There was clear interference in this case from the UK.
The UK provided Amaral with the cadaver dogs - did he class that as interference? IMO if the UK had been protecting the McCanns the powers-that-be would have whisked the family out of Portugal as soon as they could. That didn't happen.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 05:12:51 PM
The UK provided Amaral with the cadaver dogs - did he class that as interference?
He should have!
IMO if the UK had been protecting the McCanns the powers-that-be would have whisked the family out of Portugal as soon as they could. That didn't happen.
But otherwise, yes!
Good point.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 05:16:38 PM
The UK provided Amaral with the cadaver dogs - did he class that as interference? IMO if the UK had been protecting the McCanns the powers-that-be would have whisked the family out of Portugal as soon as they could. That didn't happen.
As you know, initially, the UK Police advised the P.J. to investigate the McCann's, with the lack of evidence of abduction.
Note the word advise.
That became revised to abduction, and not a jot of evidence to support it.
It still remains the case, that no evidence has been found of a third party in the apartment that night.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 05:17:26 PM
There was clear interference in this case from the UK.
Absolutely, I have experienced so-called consular assistance in Spain in 2003 and it can in no way be compared to what occurred in Praia da Luz in 2007. The British police were told to shadow the McCanns and be there every time they had contact with the PJ. It isn't rocket science to work out why,
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 05:20:06 PM
As you know, initially, the UK Police advised the P.J. to investigate the McCann's, with the lack of evidence of abduction.
Note the word advise.
That became revised to abduction, and not a jot of evidence to support it.
It still remains the case, that no evidence has been found of a third party in the apartment that night.
absolute rollox as you like to say.....the UK police advised that the mccanns should be investigated..this is normal practice...your statement taht it was because of a lack of evidence of abduction is a complete fallacy
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 05:21:37 PM
Absolutely, I have experienced so-called consular assistance in Spain in 2003 and it can in no way be compared to what occurred in Praia da Luz in 2007. The British police were told to shadow the McCanns and be there every time they had contact with the PJ. It isn't rocket science to work out why,
tell us why...it may well be as you know ...because of how the police on the iberian peninsula treat their suspects...whats your reason
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 05:22:27 PM
absolute rollox as you like to say.....the UK police advised that the mccanns should be investigated..this is normal practice...your statement taht it was because of a lack of evidence of abduction is a complete fallacy
You have been asked many times to show/provide evidence of abduction.
You have failed.
As to UK interference in the case, no doubt about it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 05:23:38 PM
absolute rollox as you like to say.....the UK police advised that the mccanns should be investigated..this is normal practice...your statement taht it was because of a lack of evidence of abduction is a complete fallacy
I agree with Stephen, there were too many unanswered questions in the investigation and a complete failure to find any tangible proof of an abduction so attention naturally moved to the parents. Amaral admits that this should have happened much earlier so if mistakes were made this was one of them.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 05:23:49 PM
I agree with Stephen, there were too many unanswered questions in the investigation and a failure to find any tangible proof of an abduction so attention naturally moved to the parents.
you can agree but if you cannot state as fact that the uk police told the pj to investigate the mccanns because of lackk of evidence of abduction...that is an opinion and speculation but not a fact as stephen claimed #remember the rules re posting opion as fact
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 05:26:28 PM
Absolutely, I have experienced so-called consular assistance in Spain in 2003 and it can in no way be compared to what occurred in Praia da Luz in 2007. The British police were told to shadow the McCanns and be there every time they had contact with the PJ. It isn't rocket science to work out why,
Because The UK Government weren't having Kate McCann falling down some Police Station stairs. In My Opinion, since I can't possible know.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 05:29:35 PM
Cameron got involved after public pressure, before he resigned.
Now let's have some cases of UK citizens abroad who have received assistance from Prime Ministers.
ive answerred your question...there was involveent because of the severity of the incident...you think its masons and other reason...i think you are wrong
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 05:30:30 PM
you can agree but if you cannot state as fact that the uk police told the pj to investigate the mccanns because of lackk of evidence of abduction...that is an opinion and speculation but not a fact as stephen claimed #remember the rules re posting opion as fact
Unless they abducted their own child which I find hard to believe. Why else would the girl's parents be investigated with dogs sent in to look for signs of a death in their rental apartment and hire car?
The only reason this happened was because the abduction claim drew a blank!
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 05:33:43 PM
Unless they abducted their own child which I find hard to believe. Why else would the girl's parents be investigated with dogs sent in to look for signs of a death in their rental apartment and hire car?
The only reason this happened was because the abduction claim drew a blank!
whose idea was it to screen the rental car...not the uk
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on May 30, 2017, 05:36:47 PM
Unless they abducted their own child which I find hard to believe. Why else would the girl's parents be investigated with dogs sent in to look for signs of a death in their rental apartment and hire car?
The only reason this happened was because the abduction claim drew a blank!
Was that in spite of 2 unidentified men seen wandering around Luz carrying a pyjama-clad barefoot young girl?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 05:37:47 PM
Standard procedure. Any and all objects associated with the suspects would be considered a target.
harrison said in his rog... After the conclusion of the searches, a meeting in the Portimao offices of the PJ took place in the cabinet of Goncalo AMARAL and those present included Guilermino ENCARNACO, an official representative from the Leicestershire police, Martin GRIME and myself. During the meeting were exhibited videos with the details of search activities including the sniffer dogs lead by Martin GRIME. GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.
amaral obviously wasnt listening
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 05:40:49 PM
Was that in spite of 2 unidentified men seen wandering around Luz carrying a pyjama-clad barefoot young girl?
Not in spite of but because of.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 05:42:48 PM
Harrisons advice on what should be examined by the dogs..
McCann's Apartment.
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's. Murat's House and Garden.
The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann. A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets. Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence. Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood. This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed. An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.
he also suggested murats car.....he never suggested teh mccanns car
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 05:44:54 PM
there is absolutely no evidence the uk police suspected the mccanns ...none whatsoever
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 30, 2017, 05:47:37 PM
Harrisons advice on what should be examined by the dogs..
McCann's Apartment.
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's. Murat's House and Garden.
The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann. A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets. Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence. Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood. This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed. An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.
he also suggested murats car.....he never suggested teh mccanns car
8((()*/
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 05:58:20 PM
Certainly no forensic indication of a third party in the apartment.
Yet the UK police who then became involved 'changed their mind'.
Meanwhile all the 'leads' have evaporated.
So, I and others now wait for the shelving of the case.
who said they changed their mind. it looks as though they have followed my line of thinking and see abduction as way ahead the most likely explanation for maddies disappearance
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on May 30, 2017, 06:11:41 PM
Discount the (untimely) comment of the Deputy Chief of Leicestershire Police (that would undoubtedly not be repeated today) and there is none.
Quote
In the summary of the 30-page report Mr Rainbow wrote: “The potential involvement of the family in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann cannot be discarded, and it can be considered that, when pondering the basis for research, this hypothesis deserves as much attention as the criminal with sexual motivations that has been previously prioritised.
“It should be stressed that there is no evidence to directly support an involvement of the family, yet given the absence of decisive evidence to prove the contrary, such a scenario has to be explored.” At court last week, Mr Amaral’s lawyer, Antonio Cabrita, read out a section of 37-year-old Mr Rainbow’s report which said: “The family is a lead that should be followed.”
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 06:27:34 PM
how many british children disappear in these circumstances abroad...ben and Maddie and thats about it
No that's not about it actually. Here is a fact or two to throw that idea out.
It is a known fact by the government depts; that Many hundreds, maybe thousands of UK born children over the years, who have Pakistani/Indian parents/grandparents here- go missing. They are taken on 'holiday' and never seen again. Although it is illegal to perform underage marriages/ have sex with underage children this isn't the case in some countries. It is not investigated because it is a cultural thing. The penalty is death if you refuse, so we really can't quantify how many British children go missing that the UK police do not investigate- Sadly many hundreds are never reported missing...
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 06:49:43 PM
What evidence would this be? If they are sure they know it is an abduction then why say they want to tell Kate n Gerry what happened to their daughter.. saving 12 millions all they need to say is... based on this evidence ( naming it) Your daughter was abducted... now why don't they just do that...
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 30, 2017, 06:55:06 PM
And yet Ben's parents haven't received anything like the £11 million spent investigating Madeleine's disappearance. Why the difference do you think?
I think the initial interest may have had more to do with Mark Warner than with the parents. Mark Warner paid almost a million Euros up front for the Ocean Club and committed to paying rental for 27 apartments for ten years. The remainder of the purchase price was to be paid over 5 years from 2009 to 2014. In addition I believe MW also built the Tapas complex.
Mark Warner really pushed the boat out following the disappearance. Two directors flew out to Luz on 4th; the Managing Director and the Operations Director. Alex Woolfall, Head of Risk with Bell Pottinger and Alan Pike arrived the same day. Was it out of concern for the parents or concern for their considerable investment? Did the British Ambassador drop everything and hasten to Luz because of the parents or because of the business risk to Mark Warner?
Certainly no forensic indication of a third party in the apartment.
Yet the UK police who then became involved 'changed their mind'.
Meanwhile all the 'leads' have evaporated.
So, I and others now wait for the shelving of the case.
What evidence of anything at all was presented in the 'O Enigma' documentary. Here was the opportunity for the first coordinator of the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance to give us a breakdown and an insight into the immediate steps taken to effect her recovery.
Did the former coordinator explain any of the procedures of elimination which led to him to fixate on his death conclusion for Madeleine?
Did he explain why he entirely ruled out a burglar entering the McCann residence? Certainly worth a passing thought given the very recent burglaries in the apartments immediately above.
Did he explain why his investigation apparently ignored assaults on children when the PJ had DNA samples from the perpetrator available to them? A valid reason why a possible escalation was apparently ruled out of the investigation might have been appropriate.
What 'O Enigma' gave us was a rehash of the original documentary using slightly different camera viewpoints. Absolutely nothing else; the former coordinator had nothing of substance to say ... and spent an hour saying it ... is it any wonder such a short sighted approach was incapable of finding any clue as to what happened to Madeleine and wasted the all important golden hours?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 30, 2017, 07:57:25 PM
Can you remind me of the date when that statement was made.
7 July 2008
"The case is listed to be heard in open court on July 7 in the Family Division of the High Court in London, and is expected to be contested by Leicestershire Police, according to legal sources."
"The case is listed to be heard in open court on July 7 in the Family Division of the High Court in London, and is expected to be contested by Leicestershire Police, according to legal sources."
The McCanns got the truth loud and clear from UK police in court when they wanted their files (July 2008).
‘While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.’ (LP)
Kate McCann's response the this has always interested me. Rather than mentioning anything which could eliminate them, she refers to how he had seen how grief-stricken they were shortly after the disappearance. Does she really think that being grief-stricken is evidence?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 30, 2017, 08:31:13 PM
Almost nine years ago. Guess OG. know a little bit more now.
If eliminating dead end leads is what you call progress then that's up for debate but if they know more then expect new developments and changes in this case. I'm still waiting.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 30, 2017, 08:35:29 PM
So they have solved how Madeleine disappeared, and her fate ?
No sadly they have not but they do seem to have eliminated her parents from any involvement in her disappearance.....................await the standard reply.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2017, 08:37:17 PM
Almost nine years ago. Guess OG. know a little bit more now.
I think your guess is questionable. According to A C Rowley they did not investigate parental involvement they assumed the first investigation had done that. So in that respect the situation remains the same as it was in July 2008.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on May 30, 2017, 08:38:56 PM
No sadly they have not but they do seem to have eliminated her parents from any involvement in her disappearance.....................await the standard reply.
Stephen, like others, has no evidence that the current police investigators have no evidence of abduction.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 30, 2017, 08:40:38 PM
If eliminating dead end leads is what you call progress then that's up for debate but if they know more then expect new developments and changes in this case. I'm still waiting.
But they do not seem to suspect Madeleine's parents of being involved in her disappearance
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 08:41:49 PM
I think your guess is questionable. According to A C Rowley they did not investigate parental involvement they assumed the first investigation had done that. So in that respect the situation remains the same as it was in July 2008.
either you did not understand what rowley said or you are deliberately repeating untruths. rowley assumed nothing. they looked at the original evidence and felt that the issue of the mccanns had been dealt with and agreed with the findings
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 30, 2017, 08:44:53 PM
I think your guess is questionable. According to A C Rowley they did not investigate parental involvement they assumed the first investigation had done that. So in that respect the situation remains the same as it was in July 2008.
No I "guess" they know a little more than in July 2008.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 08:51:25 PM
of course there is evidence of abduction if you actually understand what the word evidence means
OK so if we concentrate on the salient points we have two types of evidence: Direct Evidence which proves or disproves a fact directly; commonly eye witness testimony, where a witness describes exactly what he/she saw, heard, or experienced. Indirect or Circumstantial Evidence which is not direct evidence from a witness who saw or heard something. Indirect evidence is a fact that can be used to infer another fact. Indirect evidence implies something occurred but doesn't directly prove it; proof of one or more facts from which one can find another fact; proof of a chain of facts and circumstances indicating an event happened or did not happen.
Kate McCann's response the this has always interested me. Rather than mentioning anything which could eliminate them, she refers to how he had seen how grief-stricken they were shortly after the disappearance. Does she really think that being grief-stricken is evidence?
"I believe people are inherently good" KM.
She believes in the high emotional approach to connect with people and win them over. The police won't fall for it but others will. It's also a good diverting tactic from the issue at hand.
"All of this the assistant chief constable for Leicestershire made clear in a statement written for the court. He had come out to Portugal shortly after Madeleine’s abduction and had seen us at our most grief-stricken, and yet he felt able to comment of Gerry and me in this statement:
‘While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance.’
We were completely staggered. No evidence to eliminate us? Whether or not it was his intention, that line stuck in our heads as ‘guilty until proven innocent’. KM
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 30, 2017, 08:58:42 PM
OK so if we concentrate on the salient points we have two types of evidence: Direct Evidence which proves or disproves a fact directly; commonly eye witness testimony, where a witness describes exactly what he/she saw, heard, or experienced. Indirect or Circumstantial Evidence which is not direct evidence from a witness who saw or heard something. Indirect evidence is a fact that can be used to infer another fact. Indirect evidence implies something occurred but doesn't directly prove it; proof of one or more facts from which one can find another fact; proof of a chain of facts and circumstances indicating an event happened or did not happen.
So do you believe they are investigating the parents and are just playing "games" when they say that the parents are not suspects and you obviously do not go along with the theory that the parents are "off limits" it's all so confusing when posting to sceptics.
Nah! Two rules Rule One: Loads of supporters with but one belief. Rule Two: Loads of sceptics with loads of theories mostly differing but with a common belief that the belief in Rule One is erroneous. Easy old stuff 8(0(*
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 09:22:52 PM
They 'had a look at all the material' and 'were happy'. They're easily pleased is all I can say.
A C Rowley; the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that
without knowing exactly how he reached that decision you are not in position to decide if he is right or wrong
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 09:24:05 PM
thats your opinion....I think hes absolutely bang on....without knowing how he has reached that decision you are not in a position to make a valid judgement on what he says
Well you would say that but then you are a civilian with no police background.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 09:24:33 PM
None of these people have a baldy clue what happened to Madeleine McCann so please stop posting comments as if they do.
Madeleine McCann...10 years on...fate unknown.
yet we have a video with amaral staing his conclusions on evidence which is blatantly inncorrect that you have described as a fair summation...or something similar
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 30, 2017, 09:24:51 PM
Nah! Two rules Rule One: Loads of supporters with but one belief. Rule Two: Loads of sceptics with loads of theories mostly differing but with a common belief that the belief in Rule One is erroneous. Easy old stuff 8(0(*
I will begin with a phrase I loathe At this moment in time OG seem to be favouring Rule one but hey tick tock and all that.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 09:25:47 PM
So do you believe they are investigating the parents and are just playing "games" when they say that the parents are not suspects and you obviously do not go along with the theory that the parents are "off limits" it's all so confusing when posting to sceptics.
I'm saying if they are investigating them, they are not going to necessarily tell us. Look at what happened in August 2007. The PJ are the lead force not SY.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 30, 2017, 09:27:46 PM
I'm saying if they are investigating them, they are not going to necessarily tell us. Look at what happened in August 2007. The PJ are the lead force not SY.
i think we can state with certainty the mccanns are not considered suspects by SY or the PJ
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 09:28:16 PM
they werent until new evidence was discovered which amaral thought immplicated them....he was wrong...the evidence was flawed...the mccanns are not suspects ...if new evidence arises taht could change...i would say that is very very unlikely
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 30, 2017, 09:37:00 PM
I have been asking the same question on here for getting on for four years with no credible answer as yet so let's wheel it out again. For there to have been an abduction the paths of the little girl and the abductor had to cross. How did their paths cross ? What evidence is there to support it ?
Any sceptical persons view today will be colored by the fact that had the same question been couched four years ago it would have been greeted with "Jane saw the abductor carting Madeleine off". Well Andy fragged Tannerman so scrub that off the list.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on May 30, 2017, 09:37:16 PM
I'm saying if they are investigating them, they are not going to necessarily tell us. Look at what happened in August 2007. The PJ are the lead force not SY.
This is 2017. Ten years have passed. OG have said the parents are not involved in her disappearance. Do you believe they are playing a canny tick tock game. Do you believe the PJ are playing a different tune?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 30, 2017, 09:37:24 PM
they werent until new evidence was discovered which amaral thought immplicated them....he was wrong...the evidence was flawed...the mccanns are not suspects ...if new evidence arises taht could change...i would say that is very very unlikely
They asked them questions which one didn't answer and they went home. That's about sums it up.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 09:41:29 PM
Without any evidence, which is basically the situation, they can be given equal weighting.
I think without evidence you would have to fall back on historical data which wouldn't give equal weighting and would probably give a high probability to woke and wandered.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 09:49:11 PM
I think without evidence you would have to fall back on historical data which wouldn't give equal weighting and would probably give a high probability to woke and wandered.
Fair point Slarti.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 09:50:18 PM
i never used the word detecting...check back ...i used the word found....sorry but you are wrong again....the dog tells grime where to look ...then grime finds the evidence...
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 09:55:10 PM
I think without evidence you would have to fall back on historical data which wouldn't give equal weighting and would probably give a high probability to woke and wandered.
Forgive me for I am only a simple whatever it is I do for a living (I can't recall what that is just now) but is that the same as abduction is an odds on racing cert. ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 30, 2017, 09:57:43 PM
i never used the word detecting...check back ...i used the word found....sorry but you are wrong again....the dog tells grime where to look ...then grime finds the evidence...
The forensic team gathers the evidence Dave.
Grime is a handler, and the dogs indicate, given stimuli.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 30, 2017, 11:18:05 PM
Not so, the alerts were indicative of cadaver odour, not proof.
They are not even that, let alone any forensic evidence of which there was none.
All they are evidence of is that there was dessicated blood from a living person there, which is highly likely, in fact inevitable, as the apartment was built many many years before .... and there would have been minor accidents involving minor bleeds in there at times over the years.
No forensic confirmation of anything. Poor Amaral, he is on a loser there IMO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2017, 07:35:56 AM
They are not even that, let alone any forensic evidence of which there was none.
All they are evidence of is that there was dessicated blood from a living person there, which is highly likely, in fact inevitable, as the apartment was built many many years before .... and there would have been minor accidents involving minor bleeds in there at times over the years.
No forensic confirmation of anything. Poor Amaral, he is on a loser there IMO
If a dog alerts and no forensic evidence is found does that mean the dog is wrong? No, there are other cases where the dogs were found to be right later.
Do these dogs alert to minor accidents and bleeds? That's unlikely because they'd alert everywhere they were deployed. In this case I would have expected them to alert in Murat's house, for example.
I don't know if the dogs were right or wrong and neither does anyone else. Scepticism about the dogs seems to reside mostly in those who support the parents. Some of their attempts to discredit the dogs and their handler have been quite ridiculous.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: slartibartfast on May 31, 2017, 07:59:06 AM
I was replying to Slarti's post which I had read. As a result of having read Slarti's post I asked him for clarification of his post. So what post are you referring to and how does it's content impact on my request for clarification of Slarti's post ?
If we look at all cases of missing children, then the initial cause of the disappearance is most likely to be the child leaving the place where they were supposed to be. The number removed from that place is very small, so given no evidence of what happened in this case the most likely scenario is that Madeleine left the apartment under her own steam.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: slartibartfast on May 31, 2017, 08:00:51 AM
They are not even that, let alone any forensic evidence of which there was none.
All they are evidence of is that there was dessicated blood from a living person there, which is highly likely, in fact inevitable, as the apartment was built many many years before .... and there would have been minor accidents involving minor bleeds in there at times over the years.
No forensic confirmation of anything. Poor Amaral, he is on a loser there IMO
We know that the cadaver dog alerted where the blood dog didn't, therefore not blood alert.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2017, 08:13:32 AM
If a dog alerts and no forensic evidence is found does that mean the dog is wrong? No, there are other cases where the dogs were found to be right later.
Do these dogs alert to minor accidents and bleeds? That's unlikely because they'd alert everywhere they were deployed. In this case I would have expected them to alert in Murat's house, for example.
I don't know if the dogs were right or wrong and neither does anyone else. Scepticism about the dogs seems to reside mostly in those who support the parents. Some of their attempts to discredit the dogs and their handler have been quite ridiculous.
We don't know if the dogs are right or wrong but Amaral has assumed they are right That's wrong
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2017, 08:34:22 AM
I am open to evidence on all scenarios.
I may favour one above another, but i do realize that facts, i.e. evidence, is required to show which one is correct.
This case, however, is highlighted by the lack of evidence.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2017, 08:37:57 AM
I may favour one above another, but i do realize that facts, i.e. evidence, is required to show which one is correct.
This case, however, is highlighted by the lack of evidence.
You have stated you believe Maddie died in an accident That opinion must have been based on your interpretation of the facts Therefore you must accept that facts exist These facts are evidence That's basic stephen
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2017, 08:41:19 AM
You have stated you believe Maddie died in an accident That opinion must have been based on your interpretation of the facts Therefore you must accept that facts exist These facts are evidence That's basic stephen
Let's have the facts which you say support abduction.
Yet again an opinion, is an interpretation of what information is available. It doesn't make it true.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2017, 08:46:07 AM
Let's have the facts which you say support abduction.
Yet again an opinion, is an interpretation of what information is available. It doesn't make it true.
Its taken me ages to make you understand that facts exist yet you have used these facts to form your opinion. these facts are evidence...not strong evidence but indirect evidence. Therefore we have established taht evidence exists...that is not an opinion...thats a fact. This evidence imo supports abduction ...and it looks like SY agree with me as Rowley has said Maddie was abducted..he has stated this as a fact.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 31, 2017, 08:53:58 AM
Its taken me ages to make you understand that facts exist yet you have used these facts to form your opinion. these facts are evidence...not strong evidence but indirect evidence. Therefore we have established taht evidence exists...that is not an opinion...thats a fact. This evidence imo supports abduction ...and it looks like SY agree with me as Rowley has said Maddie was abducted..he has stated this as a fact.
Funny, I got the impression Rowley said OG relied on the first investigation.
Which the Supreme Court has made clear did not rule out any possibilities.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2017, 08:56:30 AM
Funny, I got the impression Rowley said OG relied on the first investigation.
Which the Supreme Court has made clear did not rule out any possibilities.
then you rknowledge of the case is poor...rowley stated as a fact that maddie was abducted...the quote was posted by me last night
MR: Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that was a line of investigation. The McCanns are parents of a missing girl, we are trying to get to the bottom of. In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted. It is not a 20-year-old who has gone missing and who has made a decision to start a new life, this is a young girl who is missing and at the heart of this has been an abduction.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2017, 09:02:57 AM
then you rknowledge of the case is poor...rowley stated as a fact that maddie was abducted...the quote was posted by me last night
MR: Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that was a line of investigation. The McCanns are parents of a missing girl, we are trying to get to the bottom of. In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted. It is not a 20-year-old who has gone missing and who has made a decision to start a new life, this is a young girl who is missing and at the heart of this has been an abduction.
That is an opinion in a one sided investigation.
It does not make abduction a fact.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on May 31, 2017, 09:34:01 AM
Amaral has the right to question it because there is evidence from the McCanns that normal bath time was 6:30pm onwards in PDL.
Normal routine - return back from play area at 18:30 then baths before bed.
"The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30. Following this they returned to the apartment, the deponent opened the main door with his key and, then, the rear door through which KATE and the children entered. ----- The hygiene done, the children were put to bed about 19h30."
Gerry was at tennis on 3 May 2007 when Fiona said this in her rog interview - Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed.
"Kate and the kids, I think, as I said earlier, weren't there and, you know, they, as Gerry said, were just absolutely knackered and Kate was getting them bathed and ready for bed."
Fiona Payne is only saying what she THINKS happened. Her memory of the gist of what Gerry said Kate was doing was largely correct - but she would not necessarily remember the conversation in absolute precise detail - and I wouldn't expect her to. It's trivial IMO.
The most important fact is that at Gerry's request David popped into 5a on his way back to his own apartment to get his tennis gear - just to see if Kate was OK. It wasn't his idea it was Gerry's. Amaral's claim that he had another motive for going to 5a is reprehensible and is also grossly libellous IMO.
This is another example of 'Lying by Omission imo. By deliberately omitting any mention of the real reason why David left the tennis courts - which was to go back to his own apartment - Amaral was then able to claim (unchallenged) that the only reason why he left the tennis courts was to go to apartment 5a - and for deviant reasons too. Completely untrue - but anyone not knowing all the facts would not know that he had just left out the most vital fact of them all - in his attempt to smear an innocent person in the most deplorable way.
How anyone could even attempt to justify that particular crock of poison is totally beyond me
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2017, 09:43:48 AM
Its taken me ages to make you understand that facts exist yet you have used these facts to form your opinion. these facts are evidence...not strong evidence but indirect evidence. Therefore we have established taht evidence exists...that is not an opinion...thats a fact. This evidence imo supports abduction ...and it looks like SY agree with me as Rowley has said Maddie was abducted..he has stated this as a fact.
Rowley's certainty seems to be limited. Very little evidence, a lot not know, no idea what happened - but it was an abduction. How the heck does he know that? Perhaps someone told him.
the evidence is limited at the moment.....there is still a lot of unknown on this case.....Until we get to the point where we have solved it, we’re unlikely to have definitive evidence as to exactly what happened at the time. http://news.met.police.uk/documents/transcript-of-interview-with-ac-mark-rowley-66743
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2017, 09:47:50 AM
Rowley's certainty seems to be limited. Very little evidence, a lot not know, no idea what happened - but it was an abduction. How the heck does he know that? Perhaps someone told him.
the evidence is limited at the moment.....there is still a lot of unknown on this case.....Until we get to the point where we have solved it, we’re unlikely to have definitive evidence as to exactly what happened at the time. http://news.met.police.uk/documents/transcript-of-interview-with-ac-mark-rowley-66743
Imo he knows it by looking at the evidence He has access to more than we do He seems pretty certain He doesnt know exactly how it happened but he seems to know it happened
It strange how you criticise Rowley but not Amaral who patently does not understand the evidence
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2017, 10:12:43 AM
Imo he knows it by looking at the evidence He has access to more than we do He seems pretty certain He doesnt know exactly how it happened but he seems to know it happened
It strange how you criticise Rowley but not Amaral who patently does not understand the evidence
I'm not in the habit of believing something just because someone says it's true. Experience has taught me that people say things for all sorts of reasons. I think Rowley says abduction happened because that's what Operation Grange have been investigating all along. They may be right, they may be wrong, but I would be very surprised if they can prove it was an abduction.
The difference between Amaral and Rowley is that Amaral tells us exactly why he reached his conclusions. Rowley tells us nothing so how can we judge?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2017, 10:27:57 AM
Stephen is stating they are circumstantial evidence Opinion stated as fact so they should be removed Grime has told us No evidential value so it is grimes opinion not mine S
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2017, 11:15:15 AM
Amaral refers to the fact that Gerry McCann changed his account of how he entered his apartment on the evening of 3rd May. It is a fact because it's there in black and white in his statements.
Those who support the McCanns deny or excuse this fact. Gerry was confused, the interpreter was confused, the translator was confused etc., etc. Does that change anything? No, the fact remains.
Casting doubt on the facts is counter-productive because Operation Grange relied on the original files (allegedly) to decide there was no need to investigate the parents.
If the files can't be relied on then Operation Grange have made a big mistake.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2017, 11:36:33 AM
Amaral refers to the fact that Gerry McCann changed his account of how he entered his apartment on the evening of 3rd May. It is a fact because it's there in black and white in his statements.
Those who support the McCanns deny or excuse this fact. Gerry was confused, the interpreter was confused, the translator was confused etc., etc. Does that change anything? No, the fact remains.
Casting doubt on the facts is counter-productive because Operation Grange relied on the original files (allegedly) to decide there was no need to investigate the parents.
If the files can't be relied on then Operation Grange have made a big mistake.
The files cannot be relied upon to be entirely correct Gerry statement is not verbatim and twice translated The PJ accepted there were errors... I have posted the link before
That's why SY will have clarified things with the important witnesses including the mccanns
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on May 31, 2017, 11:38:08 AM
Amaral refers to the fact that Gerry McCann changed his account of how he entered his apartment on the evening of 3rd May. It is a fact because it's there in black and white in his statements.
Those who support the McCanns deny or excuse this fact. Gerry was confused, the interpreter was confused, the translator was confused etc., etc. Does that change anything? No, the fact remains.
Casting doubt on the facts is counter-productive because Operation Grange relied on the original files (allegedly) to decide there was no need to investigate the parents.
If the files can't be relied on then Operation Grange have made a big mistake.
True -but what Amaral does not do is explain the reasons Gerry gave for correcting his statement. If those reasons were in any way shape or form detrimental to Gerry - then I have no doubt we would know all about them.
Once again an example IMO of 'lying by omission' IMO where vital facts are omitted in order to cast suspicion where there would be no suspicion if the whole story was known.
Any idea that SY have no more information than we have - and no more powers than we do to investigate anything they like in depth is silly IMO.
AIMHO
Must go out now.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on May 31, 2017, 11:42:19 AM
The files cannot be relied upon to be entirely correct Gerry statement is not verbatim and twice translated The PJ accepted there were errors... I have posted the link before
That's why SY will have clarified things with the important witnesses including the mccanns
It won't wash, there is a solid wooden front door with two locks and a rear single glass sliding patio door which only locks from the inside. Nobody is fooled by attempts to confuse the two. The only reason those resident on ground floor apartments claimed to have used the front door was because they suspected they would be severely criticised if they admitted to using the patio door and leaving it unlocked. They were right!
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2017, 12:08:45 PM
It won't wash, there is a solid wooden front door with two locks and a rear single glass sliding patio door which only locks from the inside. Nobody is fooled by attempts to confuse the two. The only reason those resident on ground floor apartments claimed to have used the front door was because they suspected they would be severely criticised if they admitted to using the patio door and leaving it unlocked. They were right!
All your opinion Without proper transcripts it's reasonable to assume there were errors and imo and many others the confusion over the door was a translation issue It was a massive mistake by the PJ not to record the interviews
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2017, 12:19:19 PM
The files cannot be relied upon to be entirely correct Gerry statement is not verbatim and twice translated The PJ accepted there were errors... I have posted the link before
That's why SY will have clarified things with the important witnesses including the mccanns
Your whole post is speculation and doesn't change the fact that Gerry changed his story.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2017, 12:22:32 PM
True -but what Amaral does not do is explain the reasons Gerry gave for correcting his statement. If those reasons were in any way shape or form detrimental to Gerry - then I have no doubt we would know all about them.
Once again an example IMO of 'lying by omission' IMO where vital facts are omitted in order to cast suspicion where there would be no suspicion if the whole story was known.
Any idea that SY have no more information than we have - and no more powers than we do to investigate anything they like in depth is silly IMO.
AIMHO
Must go out now.
You are assuming;
That Gerry McCann gave a valid reason for changing his story That this reason wasn't recorded by those taking his second statement. That somehow Amaral knows this unrecorded reason. That Amaral is hiding the reason in order to make Gerry look bad.
That's an awful lot of assuming imo, and it doesn't change the recorded fact.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2017, 12:34:14 PM
Your whole post is speculation and doesn't change the fact that Gerry changed his story.
Doors & keys appear to have been a matter of high importance in GM's statement of 10th May. Count how many times they were referred to in the statement, presumably each one in response to a PJ question.
Doors & keys appear to have been a matter of high importance in GM's statement of 10th May. Count how many times they were referred to in the statement, presumably each one in response to a PJ question.
I expect they had realised that his first statement didn't make sense. Kate would have seen the open window and shutters from the outside if she had used the main door as Gerry said.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2017, 02:14:41 PM
Another of Amaral's facts is that JT managed to pass two people without either of them seeing her. JW said;
I can affirm that it was a quiet street and it was very unlikely that someone could have passed by be in this way http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Once again, this fact has been hotly discussed. Various excuses and explanations have been offered, but the fact remains that JT wasn't seen by either of the men. One of them found that very unlikely.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2017, 02:33:44 PM
Another of Amaral's facts is that JT managed to pass two people without either of them seeing her. JW said;
I can affirm that it was a quiet street and it was very unlikely that someone could have passed by be in this way http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Once again, this fact has been hotly discussed. Various excuses and explanations have been offered, but the fact remains that JT wasn't seen by either of the men. One of them found that very unlikely.
That is a fact.
What of it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2017, 03:31:13 PM
Another of Amaral's facts is that JT managed to pass two people without either of them seeing her. JW said;
I can affirm that it was a quiet street and it was very unlikely that someone could have passed by be in this way http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Once again, this fact has been hotly discussed. Various excuses and explanations have been offered, but the fact remains that JT wasn't seen by either of the men. One of them found that very unlikely.
the full quote... I can affirm that it was a quiet street and it was very unlikely that someone could have passed by be in this way but this as an assumption and I do not remember anything having happened.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on May 31, 2017, 04:34:42 PM
Are you not including Matt's check? they checked before they left 1 Gerry's check 2 Matt's check 3 and Kate's check 4 so I make that 4 checks.
Plus Matt made another check that seems to have been forgotten. This was before Gerrys check and it was just a listening check outside the childrens bedroom window. [A la Butlins Holiday camp child checks.]
It is on record somewhere that Matt was a bit "miffed" that Gerry almost immediately got up to do his check, so soon after Matts. Matts listening check must have been just before 9pm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2017, 05:02:28 PM
We know that the cadaver dog alerted where the blood dog didn't, therefore not blood alert.
No way of knowing. Grime stated that Keela would only react in the physical presence of blood, but he said no such thing about Eddie. It therefore can't be excluded that Eddie had reacted to a trace of blood that was no longer physically present.
The flat had been rented again after the first month, right up until a week prior to the dogs' arrival - and I can't find any trace of them making any statements in the PT files. Perhaps OG has done so since then.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on May 31, 2017, 05:03:51 PM
then you rknowledge of the case is poor...rowley stated as a fact that maddie was abducted...the quote was posted by me last night
MR: Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that was a line of investigation. The McCanns are parents of a missing girl, we are trying to get to the bottom of. In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted. It is not a 20-year-old who has gone missing and who has made a decision to start a new life, this is a young girl who is missing and at the heart of this has been an abduction.
What he clearly didn't say was it was limited to wholly and solely a stranger abduction.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2017, 05:04:32 PM
Amaral refers to the fact that Gerry McCann changed his account of how he entered his apartment on the evening of 3rd May. It is a fact because it's there in black and white in his statements.
Those who support the McCanns deny or excuse this fact. Gerry was confused, the interpreter was confused, the translator was confused etc., etc. Does that change anything? No, the fact remains.
Casting doubt on the facts is counter-productive because Operation Grange relied on the original files (allegedly) to decide there was no need to investigate the parents.
If the files can't be relied on then Operation Grange have made a big mistake.
The established fact is that that is what is written in his initial statement (then "clarified" in his second one), not whether what was stated is accurate or not.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2017, 05:05:06 PM
No way of knowing. Grime stated that Keela would only react in the physical presence of blood, but he said no such thing about Eddie. It therefore can't be excluded that Eddie had reacted to a trace of blood that was no longer physically present.
The flat had been rented again after the first month, right up until a week prior to the dogs' arrival - and I can't find any trace of them making any statements in the PT files. Perhaps OG has done so since then.
Not one, single, mention of the word 'blood' in John Lowe's forensic report.
Odd, that.
Absolutely everything sent to the FSS was reacted to by Keela, trained to react to nothing else.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2017, 05:05:55 PM
Another of Amaral's facts is the deep sleep of the twins, which isn't mentioned as a concern until two months later when Kate suggests they should be tested.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2017, 05:11:10 PM
Another of Amaral's facts is the deep sleep of the twins, which isn't mentioned as a concern until two months later when Kate suggests they should be tested.
You mean apart from when she first raised the concern with the UK family liaison officers as soon as they arrived two or so days after the disappearance?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2017, 05:12:01 PM
Another of Amaral's facts is the deep sleep of the twins, which isn't mentioned as a concern until two months later when Kate suggests they should be tested.
After the McCanns had been accused of drugging the twins.
(Accusation also came much later).
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2017, 05:14:43 PM
You mean apart from when she first raised the concern with the UK family liaison officers as soon as they arrived two or so days after the disappearance?
And yes, good point.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2017, 05:15:02 PM
The established fact is that that is what is written in his initial statement (then "clarified" in his second one), not whether what was stated is accurate or not.
In his first statement he entered the apartment through the main door using his key. In his second statement he entered the apartment by the patio door.
Those are the facts, meaning he changed his story.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2017, 05:16:15 PM
In his first statement he entered the apartment through the main door using his key. In his second statement he entered the apartment by the patio door.
Those are the facts, meaning he changed his story.
Accounts differ.
But by what mechanism?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on May 31, 2017, 05:20:10 PM
In his first statement he entered the apartment through the main door using his key. In his second statement he entered the apartment by the patio door.
Those are the facts, meaning he changed his story.
no it may have been recorded wrongly the first time
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2017, 05:44:18 PM
You mean apart from when she first raised the concern with the UK family liaison officers as soon as they arrived two or so days after the disappearance?
I don't know what she said to the FLO's, I'm talking about what the PJ knew.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2017, 05:57:15 PM
After the McCanns had been accused of drugging the twins.
(Accusation also came much later).
I think her suggestion came first, unless you have a cite showing otherwise.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Admin on June 01, 2017, 03:19:38 PM
I have been asked to intervene here so I will. Any poster claiming, abduction, murder, infanticide, accidental death or any other theory relating to Madeleine McCann's disappearance as a FACT will be sanctioned accordingly with a ban. I cannot make it any clearer than that. It is unknown what happened to Madeleine at this juncture so please be guided by this warning.
Admin
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on June 02, 2017, 12:03:54 AM
According to 'O Enigma' Goncalo Amaral appears to believe himself a world class expert on Madeleine's case; there are those who agree with him; there are those who don't. However I imagine that very many off topic posts are going to bite the dust from here very soon because no one is discussing 'O Enigma' ... so please may we return to discussing 'O Enigma' and if that is exhausted find a topic that still has some life left in it. But please stay on topic whatever. Thank you
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on June 02, 2017, 11:46:39 AM
It's quite amusing the lengths that people go to in order to 'explain' this statement by Gerry McCann.
Translation issue? He said it, she translated it, she read it back to him in English, he signed it.
Confusion issue? Who was confused?
Who may, or may not, have been confused is an unknown.
Did she read her own notes back to him, point by point? Did she read the full TYPED up statement back to him including "with a key"? Or did the officer simply verbally repeat the general gist back (with any of the three possibly confusing front / back) prior to making a formal copy for him to sign?
No one knows.
Why on earth would Gerry have stated that he took the longer route when they'd left the patio door open precisely to make the checks shorter? In the same initial statement, he stated that he'd exited via the patio *... Surely the officer would have picked up on that at the time if he'd actually said it, don't you think? Why would Kate have contradicted him if they'd been making up a story?
* Correction: Gerry stated: At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 11:55:16 AM
Who may, or may not, have been confused is an unknown.
Did she read her own notes back to him, point by point? Did she read the full TYPED up statement back to him including "with a key"? Or did the officer simply verbally repeat the general gist back (with any of the three possibly confusing front / back) prior to making a formal copy for him to sign?
No one knows.
Why on earth would Gerry have stated that he took the longer route when they'd left the patio door open precisely to make the checks shorter? In the same initial statement, he stated that he'd exited via the patio... Surely the officer would have picked up on that at the time if he'd actually said it, don't you think? Why would Kate have contradicted him if they'd been making up a story?
That's the point We simply don't know how accurate the statements are According to newspaper reports the PJ accepted there were mistakes
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on June 02, 2017, 01:02:15 PM
Who may, or may not, have been confused is an unknown.
Did she read her own notes back to him, point by point? Did she read the full TYPED up statement back to him including "with a key"? Or did the officer simply verbally repeat the general gist back (with any of the three possibly confusing front / back) prior to making a formal copy for him to sign?
No one knows.
Why on earth would Gerry have stated that he took the longer route when they'd left the patio door open precisely to make the checks shorter? In the same initial statement, he stated that he'd exited via the patio... Surely the officer would have picked up on that at the time if he'd actually said it, don't you think? Why would Kate have contradicted him if they'd been making up a story?
Vital point.
Who would be first to cry 'rehearsed' if all witness-statements were identical?
Answers on a postcard.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2017, 04:15:19 PM
Who may, or may not, have been confused is an unknown.
Did she read her own notes back to him, point by point? Did she read the full TYPED up statement back to him including "with a key"? Or did the officer simply verbally repeat the general gist back (with any of the three possibly confusing front / back) prior to making a formal copy for him to sign?
No one knows.
Why on earth would Gerry have stated that he took the longer route when they'd left the patio door open precisely to make the checks shorter? In the same initial statement, he stated that he'd exited via the patio... Surely the officer would have picked up on that at the time if he'd actually said it, don't you think? Why would Kate have contradicted him if they'd been making up a story?
Gerry acknowledged his mistake in his next statement, he didn't deny it.
I don't see your cite supporting your assertion as to why they left the patio door open?
I don't see your cite from 4th May statement showing how Gerry exited the apartment?
How do you know that Kate knew she was contradicting him?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 04:28:13 PM
Gerry acknowledged his mistake in his next statement, he didn't deny it.
I don't see your cite supporting your assertion as to why they left the patio door open?
I don't see your cite from 4th May statement showing how Gerry exited the apartment?
How do you know that Kate knew she was contradicting him?
Gerry did not acknowledge his mistake He never admitted making a mistake as far as I remember
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 02, 2017, 05:17:15 PM
one thing I find odd about the statements is the similarity in parts between Gerry and Kates statement. both statements say that the children did painting and collage etc at the kids club...there are other parts that are almost identical...so what is the explanation for that
they both had the same translator so it seems she simply wrote down her paraphrased version of events....the statements seem lmost identical with just some words changed and the phraseology altered slightly
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on June 02, 2017, 05:20:24 PM
Gerry acknowledged his mistake in his next statement, he didn't deny it.
I don't see your cite supporting your assertion as to why they left the patio door open?
I don't see your cite from 4th May statement showing how Gerry exited the apartment?
How do you know that Kate knew she was contradicting him?
Correction (I'll amend my post). He didn't say that he left by the patio but that Matt entered via it "by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked"
At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building.
The point still remains that there is not reason for him to have taken the long route if the patio door was "always unlocked".
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on June 02, 2017, 05:47:02 PM
Correction (I'll amend my post). He didn't say that he left by the patio but that Matt entered via it "by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked"
At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building.
The point still remains that there is not reason for him to have taken the long route if the patio door was "always unlocked".
Especially if he intended to go to the bathroom.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 02, 2017, 07:45:50 PM
Seems a bit quick to go and it was the last thing he said he did before leaving on that check not the first. They only left at 8:35pm.
"At 20H35, they left the apartment in the direction of the TAPAS." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 02, 2017, 08:12:15 PM
Correction (I'll amend my post). He didn't say that he left by the patio but that Matt entered via it "by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked"
At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building.
The point still remains that there is not reason for him to have taken the long route if the patio door was "always unlocked".
That's exactly the point Amaral made.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Carana on June 02, 2017, 08:20:42 PM
I'm aware of that - he's been spouting about it for long enough. Did he ever check whether it could have been a simple translation / lost-in-confusion issue? If so, I haven't found anything to that effect.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Innominate on June 04, 2017, 09:14:26 AM
At mark 25:50 KMcC is talking about the curtains on Oprah.
I'm listening to her words and watching the hand gestures, and I'm getting the impression that the curtains were closed at that time. Is this impression correct? Opinions welcome.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 04, 2017, 09:33:52 AM
At mark 25:50 KMcC is talking about the curtains on Oprah.
I'm listening to her words and watching the hand gestures, and I'm getting the impression that the curtains were closed at that time. Is this impression correct? Opinions welcome.
It was the net curtains that wooshed IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on June 04, 2017, 09:42:58 AM
To get back on topic: According to this video 2 items of Madeleine's clothing were alerted to by Eddie at the gym. Yet another complete fabrication.
IMO if the McCanns had been arrested - all the lies and disinformation included in this video would have been presented as evidence in court.
Apart from LC and her brother - I have no idea how many people are in prison as a result of Amaral's investigative 'skills'. But if this is an example of how he 'builds' cases against his suspects - they have my utmost sympathy.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on June 04, 2017, 09:56:47 AM
At mark 25:50 KMcC is talking about the curtains on Oprah.
I'm listening to her words and watching the hand gestures, and I'm getting the impression that the curtains were closed at that time. Is this impression correct? Opinions welcome.
I have no opinion, but I have evidence suggesting that the curtains were found open. Then they became closed;
On our arrival we had lowered the blind-style shutters on the outside of the windows, which were controlled from the inside, and closed the curtains. We left them that way all week. This early in the season, the nights were not that warm, there was no need to open a window and we reasoned that having the shutters down and the curtains drawn would keep it cool during the day. Although it meant the room was very dark, the children weren’t going to be in there in the daytime, and at night we always left the door ajar to let in a little light.......
As I ran back into the children’s room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. [Madeleine]
She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
the door to the children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the blinds were raised and the curtains were drawn open. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open on one side, the external blinds almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE'S bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cribs. He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scene that she found when she entered the apartment. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 04, 2017, 10:53:57 AM
How could the net curtains woosh if the heavier curtains were closed?
Is that evidence that an 'ALLEGED' abductor had been in and messed with the heavier curtains ? &%+((£
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on June 08, 2017, 10:19:55 AM
Sorry to wake you all up folks - however to get back on topic:
Amaral claims in this video that body fluids were detected by the dogs in the curtains in 5a. Not true.
Keela did not alert at all to the curtain on her first search on 31st July.
On the second search on 3rd August she alerted to the curtain (which she missed the first time round) - but despite extensive tests by FSS - nothing whatsoever could be detected. No bodily fluids. Zilch.
Quote
The alerts by Keela Apartment 5A - 31.07.2007
* between 20h47 and 21.20 the "blood" dog alerted: - at 21h10 in the lounge, specifically on the floor behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.
On the 1st of August a forensic team collected samples at the apartment. Here's the relevant part of their report :
Quote He advised further that after the recovery of the tiles the animal specialised in detection of human blood should perform another search of the area from where the tiles had been recovered to verify [check for] the existence of possible human blood in the area from where the tiles had been lifted.
Apartment 5A 03.08.2007
19.19 The dog “marked” an area of tiles in the living room, next to the window and behind the sofa. 19.20 The dog “marked” the lower part of the left white coloured curtain of the window behind the sofa. End quote
IMO - as Keela did not alert to the white curtain on her first search - and as no traces of anything at all were found when the curtain was tested by FSS after she did alert to it 3 days later - it is possible that this alert was a false one. And if it wasn't - it still shows that the amount of time spent searching was a major factor. i.e. The longer a dog is given to search - the more chance there is of an alert.
This supports my opinion that if more time had been given to searching the other apartments and other cars - then alerts in those areas may well have been the result.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 08, 2017, 12:12:09 PM
Keela can alert to blood that forensics cannot find. Blood being recovered under a tile is very telling. You can't clean up there.
On scent of success: sniffer dog Keela earns more than her Chief Constable HER detective work is unsurpassed, her dedication to duty during some of Britain’s most challenging murder cases unfailing. Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, has become such an asset to South Yorkshire Police that she now earns more than the chief constable. Her sense of smell, so keen that she can sniff traces of blood on weapons that have been scrubbed after attacks, has her so much in demand by forces up and down the country that she is hired out at £530 a day, plus expenses. The Times December 30, 2005 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable-2lwgph6kk9b
Service Information 1 August 2007 By Joao Direito, Inspector
Recovery of possible trace evidence
I bring to your attention in accordance with instructions received, that today, around 20h00, LPC Assistant Specialists Fernando Viegas and Lino Rodrigues, after seeing recorded images relating to the canine inspection conducted on 31 July 2007 in apartment 5A of the Ocean Club, duly explained in an official statement in the case file, they proceeded to collect [recover] the floor tiles where the dogs used in the activity indicated [alerted to] the possible existence of blood traces along with the position of a cadaver in that location.
Those tiles were lifted from the floor, in a way to preserve the possible traces intact for them to be subjected to examination by an authorised laboratory.
The activity was filmed in a way to illustrate the manner in which the uplifting was performed and the tools used, allowing that the experts would have a better understanding of all the circumstances inherent in the removal action. This resulted in the recordings of two video cassettes (Mini DV) which are attached. The LPC officers are going to produce the official report. That is all I have to advise. Inspector, Joao Direito.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 08, 2017, 07:07:56 PM
I'm finding it somewhat difficult to evaluate this opus, but I suppose I need to put it through the lens of a Portuguese viewer who watches CMTV, and who is aware of the Madeleine case but is not an expert on it.
Roughly speaking, it appears to be a Portuguese equivalent of a British tabloid.
There is a considerable amount that is plain wrong, but viewers with low-grade knowledge would find it hard not to 'buy' such errors.
It came over with a distinct hint of St George v The Dragon. With Gonçalo Amaral cast as St George, and The Dragon played by British diplomats and police.
I was in touch with 7 media bods leading up to the 10th anniversary. Only 1, a researcher for Panorama, seemed to have a detailed knowledge of the case. I found it hard to simplify things down enough. I am more used to discussing things with some of the experts on here, where we do detail and cites.
That means I have no reason to believe that the two CMTV presenters have any significant expertise in the case, so they could find it hard to know if errors crept in.
Having looked up how much film drones cost (they start dirt cheap) I am now getting bombarded with ads for the blighters. And that was what I got from this CMTV special. Some nice drone footage of it ShiningInLuz.
We had quite a few cloudy days between the start of the year and 3 May 2017. About half the time, the weather conditions in my record don't fit the film conditions. I could narrow it down, but does anyone care?
I think I'm going to have to get some Portuguese opinion on this CMTV effort. 8((()*/
8((()*/
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on June 09, 2017, 01:08:41 AM
I'm finding it somewhat difficult to evaluate this opus, but I suppose I need to put it through the lens of a Portuguese viewer who watches CMTV, and who is aware of the Madeleine case but is not an expert on it.
Roughly speaking, it appears to be a Portuguese equivalent of a British tabloid.
There is a considerable amount that is plain wrong, but viewers with low-grade knowledge would find it hard not to 'buy' such errors.
It came over with a distinct hint of St George v The Dragon. With Gonçalo Amaral cast as St George, and The Dragon played by British diplomats and police.
I was in touch with 7 media bods leading up to the 10th anniversary. Only 1, a researcher for Panorama, seemed to have a detailed knowledge of the case. I found it hard to simplify things down enough. I am more used to discussing things with some of the experts on here, where we do detail and cites.
That means I have no reason to believe that the two CMTV presenters have any significant expertise in the case, so they could find it hard to know if errors crept in.
Having looked up how much film drones cost (they start dirt cheap) I am now getting bombarded with ads for the blighters. And that was what I got from this CMTV special. Some nice drone footage of it ShiningInLuz.
We had quite a few cloudy days between the start of the year and 3 May 2017. About half the time, the weather conditions in my record don't fit the film conditions. I could narrow it down, but does anyone care?
I think I'm going to have to get some Portuguese opinion on this CMTV effort. 8((()*/
8((()*/
I would be interested in Portuguese opinion. Who would you ask? Someone who is reasonably well informed and someone who is not?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 09, 2017, 04:12:46 AM
I would be interested in Portuguese opinion. Who would you ask? Someone who is reasonably well informed and someone who is not?
I am more interested in someone who is not particularly well informed. I suspect those well informed made up their minds years ago, and this effort changed zero amongst those.
When we finally move, I am thinking about getting our estate agent and gf to eat with us and hopefully get an honest opinion.
Allegedly. 8((()*/
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2017, 09:19:40 AM
Keela can alert to blood that forensics cannot find.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
I'm genuinely curious to know how that can be claimed as a fact when there is absolutely no way of proving it - (shades of The Emperor's New Clothes concept imo).
IMO it is far more credible to conclude that when a 'blood dog' alerts and no trace whatsoever of the presence of blood can be detected at that spot - either by the human eye or by forensic testing - it was a false alert.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 09, 2017, 09:36:40 AM
Dogs are tested.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2017, 10:18:48 AM
In what way are they tested to prove the claim that ''Keela can alert to blood that forensics cannot find.''?
How can a handler conduct a test using invisible blood that cannot be seen by the human eye or even detected forensically? Where would he get it from and how would know he'd got it - when he had no proof that it existed in the first place?
The claim is untenable IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2017, 10:43:32 AM
In what way are they tested to prove the claim that ''Keela can alert to blood that forensics cannot find.''?
How can a handler conduct a test using invisible blood that cannot be seen by the human eye or even detected forensically? Where would he get it from and how would know he'd got it - when he had no proof that it existed in the first place?
The claim is untenable IMO.
We are dealing with the olfactory organs. It is incredibly fine tuned in some animals for example there are moths that find each other in the dark using pheromones. You get to realise they are detecting levels of the chemicals way beyond the ability of laboratories to test it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2017, 10:59:04 AM
We are dealing with the olfactory organs. It is incredibly fine tuned in some animals for example there are moths that find each other in the dark using pheromones. You get to realise they are detecting levels of the chemicals way beyond the ability of laboratories to test it.
Yes - I'm aware of that Rob - but in this instance - how can a handler prove that an alert to something that cannot be proved to exist -cannot simply be a false alert? He can't IMO . AIMHO
Must go out now.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on June 09, 2017, 11:11:42 AM
We are dealing with the olfactory organs. It is incredibly fine tuned in some animals for example there are moths that find each other in the dark using pheromones. You get to realise they are detecting levels of the chemicals way beyond the ability of laboratories to test it.
If the alert cannot be corroborated by forensic tests in a laboratory then the alerts are useless as far as a prosecutor is concerned. If a blood dog indicates there is blood on a knife but it cannot be forensically located or DNA tested by a lab then the dog's alert is worthless.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2017, 11:39:24 AM
If the alert cannot be corroborated by forensic tests in a laboratory then the alerts are useless as far as a prosecutor is concerned. If a blood dog indicates there is blood on a knife but it cannot be forensically located or DNA tested by a lab then the dog's alert is worthless.
Maybe not so useful to the prosecutor but what about the investigator. If I found the dogs alert to blood on a knife in the home of the missing person, you might be wise to start looking for a burial site. You use it as a clue.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on June 09, 2017, 11:56:57 AM
Maybe not so useful to the prosecutor but what about the investigator. If I found the dogs alert to blood on a knife in the home of the missing person, you might be wise to start looking for a burial site. You use it as a clue.
If you cannot first match the unseen, humanly undetectable blood speck on the knife to the victim then a search for a burial site would be a waste of time. I dare say many homes have knives & other household objects with miniscule traces of dried blood on them but they are not potential crime scenes.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2017, 04:04:10 PM
If you cannot first match the unseen, humanly undetectable blood speck on the knife to the victim then a search for a burial site would be a waste of time. I dare say many homes have knives & other household objects with miniscule traces of dried blood on them but they are not potential crime scenes.
It's a clue. Given one clue others can be looked for. Get enough and a picture begins to emerge. Like a jigsaw puzzle with no picture provided.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on June 09, 2017, 05:04:22 PM
It's a clue. Given one clue others can be looked for. Get enough and a picture begins to emerge. Like a jigsaw puzzle with no picture provided.
It's not a clue if it cannot be directly related to a victim or potential victim. If you haven't already read this, you may find it interesting. http://www.csst.org/box_effect.html
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 09, 2017, 06:45:23 PM
It's not a clue if it cannot be directly related to a victim or potential victim. If you haven't already read this, you may find it interesting. http://www.csst.org/box_effect.html
I think you're referring to evidence, not clues. A killer may cry crocodile tears. That's not evidence, but it's a clue.
That article has more to say about human error than dog error.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 09, 2017, 09:10:31 PM
If you cannot first match the unseen, humanly undetectable blood speck on the knife to the victim then a search for a burial site would be a waste of time. I dare say many homes have knives & other household objects with miniscule traces of dried blood on them but they are not potential crime scenes.
There will be clues and red herrings as they say. Red herring is a false trail.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 10, 2017, 08:54:26 AM
So you think the alerts by the dogs are red herrings? In my opinion they would be viewed very differently by some had they happened in locations unconnected with the McCanns.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 10, 2017, 04:23:31 PM
So you think the alerts by the dogs are red herrings? In my opinion they would be viewed very differently by some had they happened in locations unconnected with the McCanns.
Since they are unconfirmed forensically they could be, or some could be at least.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 11, 2017, 07:25:54 PM
by a mile...the biggest red herrings are the dog alerts which are totally misunderstood by many...so many posters on this forum want to dismiss what the experts say....no evidential value and no inference can be drawn..
and I dont have to put...IMO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2017, 07:29:06 PM
by a mile...the biggest red herrings are the dog alerts which are totally misunderstood by many...so many posters on this forum want to dismiss what the experts say....no evidential value and no inference can be drawn..
and I dont have to put...IMO
Yet you go on and on and on about them.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 11, 2017, 07:31:24 PM
yes...the opinions of the EXPERTS re the canine alerts... I prefer to listen to the EXPERTS....
there is NO INDICATION of ANY CADAVER in the apartment...NONE...
That is the opinion of the EXPERTS..
there are those who think they know more than the experts of course
Quote from an expert in training cadaver dogs -
They'd been using pigs as training aids for years. But as Cablk points out, "If you have a dog trained on pigs, then you have a dog trained to find dead pigs."
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2017, 09:05:53 AM
They'd been using pigs as training aids for years. But as Cablk points out, "If you have a dog trained on pigs, then you have a dog trained to find dead pigs."
So what traces of Pig D.N.A. were found ? 8)-)))
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2017, 09:11:00 AM
They'd been using pigs as training aids for years. But as Cablk points out, "If you have a dog trained on pigs, then you have a dog trained to find dead pigs."
I used to think that was the case, but it appears that it is a myth:
He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.
I used to think that was the case, but it appears that it is a myth:
He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.
Can you explain why the dogs only gave alerts to materials belonging to the McCann's ?
Can you also explain why dogs of this type are used worldwide by police forces in forensic searches ?
Can you also explain why OG utilized forensic dogs when they undertook searches in Portugal ?
Its all been explained Dogs initially did not alert until being repeatedly brought back Dogs are used worldwide to find evidence They were looking for evidence
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on June 12, 2017, 09:25:18 AM
Its all been explained Dogs initially did not alert until being repeatedly brought back Dogs are used worldwide to find evidence They were looking for evidence
What experience do you have in the deployment and or direct observation of forensic dogs in operation ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2017, 09:45:15 AM
Then went on to being trained with human remains,not called "Enhanced victim Recovery dog" for nothing.
Oh yes, the 'enhanced' Grime said Eddie couldn't tell the difference between pig and human.
It is much more likely that Eddie alerted to blood from a living person, from something that had blood on it and was removed, but the aroma was still there.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on June 12, 2017, 09:51:03 AM
Oh yes, the 'enhanced' Grime said Eddie couldn't tell the difference between pig and human.
It is much more likely that Eddie alerted to blood from a living person, from something that had blood on it and was removed, but the aroma was still there.
Well whether its liked or not,in the videos of the dogs working in 5a and elsewhere,they we are told alerted,being trained in particular disciplines you have to wonder what they alerted to if not the discipline they were trained for.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2017, 09:52:13 AM
Eddie could have been alerting to anything that once had blood on it and removed. Unfortunately other families stayed in 5a after the McCann's.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2017, 09:53:34 AM
Well whether its liked or not,in the videos of the dogs working in 5a and elsewhere,they we are told alerted,being trained in particular disciplines you have to wonder what they alerted to if not the discipline they were trained for.
Blood
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on June 12, 2017, 09:55:16 AM
Opinion or fact,if fact cite please pertaining to all things to do with the McCann case.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2017, 09:56:58 AM
We know Eddie alerts to blood from living people, he alerted to the key fob which had Gerry's blood on it, he alerted to the speck under the tiles that Keela alerted to, IMO he alerted to the scent of blood from a living person which had been on something but removed.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 12, 2017, 09:58:00 AM
We know Eddie alerts to blood from living people, he alerted to the key fob which had Gerry's blood on it, he alerted to the speck under the tiles that Keela alerted to, IMO he alerted to the scent of blood from a living person which had been on something but removed.
IYO.
Exactly.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on June 12, 2017, 09:58:28 AM
We know Eddie alerts to blood from living people, he alerted to the key fob which had Gerry's blood on it, he alerted to the speck under the tiles that Keela alerted to, IMO he alerted to the scent of blood from a living person which had been on something but removed.
In the area of the wardrobe?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Lace on June 12, 2017, 10:03:24 AM
I've read enough to know that scent pools. Martin Grime described how.
Apparently there was one area at the sofa which may have provided forensic explanation of why both dogs alerted; an area from which the the scent may also have pooled at the corner in the bedroom.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on June 12, 2017, 01:51:25 PM
I've read enough to know that scent pools. Martin Grime described how.
Apparently there was one area at the sofa which may have provided forensic explanation of why both dogs alerted; an area from which the the scent may also have pooled at the corner in the bedroom.
Nobody ever looked inside the sofa, though.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2017, 08:39:29 PM
What about down the back of the sofa? It happens quite often someone sitting on a sofa will lose something out of their pocket and it may have slipped down the back of the sofa.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2017, 08:43:40 PM
There could be lots of reasons why teh dogs alerted...amaral seems to think there is only one so he is wrong to make that connection...he did get quite a bit wrong
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2017, 08:46:05 PM
There could be lots of reasons why teh dogs alerted...amaral seems to think there is only one so he is wrong to make that connection...he did get quite a bit wrong
A lot wrong? In my opinion. Actually all of it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 12, 2017, 08:48:42 PM
The precedent being the key fob in the Renault door pocket. An apparently legitimate alert by the cadaver dog ... but forensically determined to be cellular material from an identified living individual and not cadaver.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 12, 2017, 11:19:16 PM
Keela also alerted in the boot where in many other missing person cases a body has been. If you think investigators ignore boot alerts in missing person cases then you are seriously deluded.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2017, 11:22:55 PM
Keela also alerted in the boot where in many other missing person cases a body has been. If you think investigators ignore boot alerts in missing person cases then you are seriously deluded.
they dont ignore them they investigate them...in this case there was no corroborating evidence so the alerts do not point to cadaver odour...it really is taht simple...there are a lot of deluded people but those that understand that these alerts have no evidential value are not part of that group.
its probably a mistake by you to start referring to posters as deluded
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on June 13, 2017, 02:15:40 AM
Keela also alerted in the boot where in many other missing person cases a body has been. If you think investigators ignore boot alerts in missing person cases then you are seriously deluded.
Was anything of any forensic import found anywhere in the hire car? No-one seems particularly sure, particularly the Portuguese investigators tasked with collecting the evidence.
There was absolutely no blood found inside the car ... and what Keela pointed at in the boot area appears shrouded in mystery.
I think there is an inherent dishonesty in promoting videos of the dogs allegedly alerting to a vehicle which contained absolutely no trace of Madeleine apart from shared characteristics with her parents and siblings. Not forgetting the key fob contaminated with cellular material definitely not Madeleine's.
Snip The Renault Scenic vehicle ? number plate 59-DA-27 was removed to the third floor of the underground car park and was subjected to a forensic search by officers from the Scientific Police Laboratory and another sniffer dog inspection that began at 03.49 on 7th August by the dog KEELA, which detected human blood remains, the following results were noted:
03.53 ? the dog ?marked? a zone on the right inferior side of the inside of the luggage compartment of the vehicle;
Snip Finally, a minutely detailed search was made for eventual blood vestiges and any other biological vestiges in the interior of the vehicle.
From the observations made inside the vehicle several areas were detected containing stains that appeared to be of haematic origin, they were subjected to tests looking for peroxide existing in blood using the Kastle-Mayer test, all of them reacted negatively.
A general search was also made looking for blood vestiges from more expectable parts of the interior of the vehicle (the jack, accelerator pedal, hand break, door handles, car key, vehicles controls etc) which underwent the same test looking for peroxide by the Kastle-Mayer test, all reacted negatively.
No blood or biological vestiges were found in this test.
Snip After the examination of the vehicle was complete the human blood specialist sniffer dog was introduced along with Martin Grime of the British police who coordinated the dog?s movements. After a few moments Mr Grime informed the team that they should collect the key and other materials from zone M or from the interior of the luggage compartment given the fact that the dog in reference had identified these materials as places where eventual blood vestiges existed. The undersigned gathered these materials placing them in paper envelopes with the following references:
10. Parts of the vehicle luggage area. 12. Vehicle ignition key. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/59-DA-27.htm
Snip A mixed, low-level DNA result, that appeared to be from at least two persons, was obtained from a second area of the baggage compartment plastic (286C/2007-CRL /10(2)). This sample was submitted for tests to obtain DNA profiles through LCN. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
So nothing from the boot area worth writing home about ... it is also instructive to take note of the number of individuals who hired the vehicle and the number of passengers they carried from the spring of 2007 until the McCanns hired it twenty three weeks down the line.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 13, 2017, 09:04:55 AM
Forensics concluded that 3-5 persons could have made up the DNA. Bottom line - Keela alerted to one person's blood so nothing is ruled out.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Innominate on June 13, 2017, 09:25:10 AM
The precedent being the key fob in the Renault door pocket. An apparently legitimate alert by the cadaver dog ... but forensically determined to be cellular material from an identified living individual and not cadaver.
Would you expect to find cellular material from a cadaver on the key fob?
I'm not up to speed on the dog alerts, but, if my understanding is correct, the cadaver 'scent' are compounds given off from a decomposing body. These adhere to surfaces and may be transferred from place to place.
It does not appear that these VOCs and DNA have to be in the same place.
If this is correct then the VOCs could transfer to somebody's hand and then transfer to the key fob. Any DNA found could be from the person who transferred the VOCs.
By the same token if Madeleine's DNA had been found in the apartment I do not see how that would prove the cadaver scent, if it existed, belonged to Madeleine, because you would expect to find Madeleine's DNA in the apartment.
The dogs appear to be a tool to raise 'suspicions' to be investigated, but can do little more than that.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on June 13, 2017, 09:40:05 AM
Would you expect to find cellular material from a cadaver on the key fob?
I'm not up to speed on the dog alerts, but, if my understanding is correct, the cadaver 'scent' are compounds given off from a decomposing body. These adhere to surfaces and may be transferred from place to place.
It does not appear that these VOCs and DNA have to be in the same place.
If this is correct then the VOCs could transfer to somebody's hand and then transfer to the key fob. Any DNA found could be from the person who transferred the VOCs.
By the same token if Madeleine's DNA had been found in the apartment I do not see how that would prove the cadaver scent, if it existed, belonged to Madeleine, because you would expect to find Madeleine's DNA in the apartment.
The dogs appear to be a tool to raise 'suspicions' to be investigated, but can do little more than that.
You are very clever picking up on those two points. I think it would have been unusual to find Madeleine's DNA as a pure sample in the hire car, but it wasn't found. Only 15 out of the 19 markers required for Madeleine were found, and it was not a pure sample but a mixture of three or more persons.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on June 13, 2017, 12:58:21 PM
Would you expect to find cellular material from a cadaver on the key fob?
I'm not up to speed on the dog alerts, but, if my understanding is correct, the cadaver 'scent' are compounds given off from a decomposing body. These adhere to surfaces and may be transferred from place to place.
It does not appear that these VOCs and DNA have to be in the same place.
If this is correct then the VOCs could transfer to somebody's hand and then transfer to the key fob. Any DNA found could be from the person who transferred the VOCs.
By the same token if Madeleine's DNA had been found in the apartment I do not see how that would prove the cadaver scent, if it existed, belonged to Madeleine, because you would expect to find Madeleine's DNA in the apartment.
The dogs appear to be a tool to raise 'suspicions' to be investigated, but can do little more than that.
I think you have put that succinctly. I think most of us non-experts on this forum have read and understood what the experts (and I include Martin Grime in this) have told us. I think a lot of the persistent misunderstanding and in Portugal, the continued acceptance of Amaral's very inexpert opinions being celebrated in TV programmes marking ten years of a missing child, is down to ignoring what the experts have to say. I think when the penny finally drops there may very well be a horribly embarrassed viewing public in Portugal.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 13, 2017, 02:44:00 PM
I think you have put that succinctly. I think most of us non-experts on this forum have read and understood what the experts (and I include Martin Grime in this) have told us. I think a lot of the persistent misunderstanding and in Portugal, the continued acceptance of Amaral's very inexpert opinions being celebrated in TV programmes marking ten years of a missing child, is down to ignoring what the experts have to say. I think when the penny finally drops there may very well be a horribly embarrassed viewing public in Portugal.
It seems to be a common misconception that anyone with doubts about the case has been influenced by Amaral. His influence on people's opinions is unknown.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 13, 2017, 04:17:38 PM
It seems to be a common misconception that anyone with doubts about the case has been influenced by Amaral. His influence on people's opinions is unknown.
I think many have been influenced by amaral...his tv appearances must have had some effect.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 13, 2017, 07:06:33 PM
Indeed. Why would anyone be influenced by a man whose conduct of Madeleine's case resulted in his ignominious sacking?
The ignominious event on display was the McCann's losing their case against Amaral.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2017, 08:07:04 AM
Several of the important points made by amaral in this video simply re not true....so the question is why is amaral making them....does he simply not understand the facts in this case.
amaral has been found guilty of lying by the portuguese court. He appealed and the conviction was upheld. His lies in this instance were to pervert the course of justice.
How can anyone have any respect for this man
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2017, 08:27:40 AM
Several of the important points made by amaral in this video simply re not true....so the question is why is amaral making them....does he simply not understand the facts in this case.
amaral has been found guilty of lying by the portuguese court. He appealed and the conviction was upheld. His lies in this instance were to pervert the course of justice.
How can anyone have any respect for this man
Perhaps you would like to remind us of the outcome of the legal action against Amaral in this case ?
As to respect, I cannot fathom how some people have respect for parents who endangered their children.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2017, 08:29:08 AM
Several of the important points made by amaral in this video simply re not true....so the question is why is amaral making them....does he simply not understand the facts in this case.
amaral has been found guilty of lying by the portuguese court. He appealed and the conviction was upheld. His lies in this instance were to pervert the course of justice.
How can anyone have any respect for this man
He falsified documents to help his officers. Terrible! We will discover today if anyone will face charges for their actions in the Hillsborough case. Apparently police and survivor statements were altered to cover up what happened. Terrible!
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on June 28, 2017, 10:33:50 AM
He falsified documents to help his officers. Terrible! We will discover today if anyone will face charges for their actions in the Hillsborough case. Apparently police and survivor statements were altered to cover up what happened. Terrible!
If that is true then I hope they are prosecuted.
I doubt if there is a police force in the world that is totally corruption free. Are you saying we must not criticise Amaral for being a corrupt policeman, with a conviction to prove it - on the grounds that he isn't the only one? Surely not.
IMO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2017, 10:59:10 AM
He falsified documents to help his officers. Terrible! We will discover today if anyone will face charges for their actions in the Hillsborough case. Apparently police and survivor statements were altered to cover up what happened. Terrible!
He lied in order to pervert the course of justice That is terrible
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 28, 2017, 11:06:09 AM
I doubt if there is a police force in the world that is totally corruption free. Are you saying we must not criticise Amaral for being a corrupt policeman, with a conviction to prove it - on the grounds that he isn't the only one? Surely not.
IMO
He did what policemen, doctors, nurses and no doubt countless others have done; covered for his colleagues. Criticise him by all means for what he did; he deserves it as do all who do similar things.
I find it unacceptable to suggest that all or any of these people are bad people or habitual liars however. It doesn't necessarily follow.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on June 28, 2017, 11:11:47 AM
He did what policemen, doctors, nurses and no doubt countless others have done; covered for his colleagues. Criticise him by all means for what he did; he deserves it as do all who do similar things.
I find it unacceptable to suggest that all or any of these people are bad people or habitual liars however. It doesn't necessarily follow.
But then most people don't get a Conviction for Lying.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2017, 11:13:32 AM
He did what policemen, doctors, nurses and no doubt countless others have done; covered for his colleagues. Criticise him by all means for what he did; he deserves it as do all who do similar things.
I find it unacceptable to suggest that all or any of these people are bad people or habitual liars however. It doesn't necessarily follow.
You find it unacceptable....tough I am stating he has a proven history of serious lies which affected a criminal case The fact that you think this is not serious says a lot about your principles and judgement
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on June 28, 2017, 11:15:39 AM
He did what policemen, doctors, nurses and no doubt countless others have done; covered for his colleagues. Criticise him by all means for what he did; he deserves it as do all who do similar things.
I find it unacceptable to suggest that all or any of these people are bad people or habitual liars however. It doesn't necessarily follow.
Judging by the content of his book, his many sofa interviews and this latest video there is no doubt in my mind that it does follow in this case. How anyone who has read the files can possibly come to any other conclusion is incomprehensible to me.
IMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2017, 11:17:17 AM
You find it unacceptable....tough I am stating he has a proven history of serious lies which affected a criminal case The fact that you think this is not serious says a lot about your principles and judgement
In case you haven't noticed, Amaral was the victor in the case brought against him by the McCann's.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 28, 2017, 11:52:21 AM
You find it unacceptable....tough I am stating he has a proven history of serious lies which affected a criminal case The fact that you think this is not serious says a lot about your principles and judgement
I didn't say it wasn't serious actually. I said you can't make assumptions about people just because they do one thing they shouldn't have done.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2017, 11:54:25 AM
Supporting the McCanns doesn't come into it. I support justice. Anyone who has read his book, seen his TV interviews and especially this latest video cannot fail to come to the same conclusion IMO -unless they have their eyes closed, their fingers in their ears and are singing La La La throughout 90% of them.
Any chance you might even comment on the content of the video e.g. the subject of the thread - at some stage? I see your predictable attempts to make personal comments about posters instead of their posts has kicked in.
AIMHO
Have you forgotten that people can read for themselves, and can decide for themselves.
As to supporting the Mccanns, it has everything to do with it.
You would almost certainly never have heard of Amaral, but for the Mccanns.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2017, 12:52:11 PM
So Amaral uses statements that are untrue to prove his point So is he telling lies Does he not understand the evidence Both are an acute embarrassment to such senior officer Or is there another explanation It seems no one can come up with one
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on June 28, 2017, 12:55:05 PM
I don't think many care, one way or the other about Amaral
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 28, 2017, 01:34:02 PM
He would have got a short-lived boost in the recognition stakes a few months ago when he had his victory in the Supreme Court
Do you think the significance is with Amaral finally repelling the McCanns civil action or the fact that they failed to get the substantial sum they were suing for?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2017, 02:53:37 PM
could I draw posters attention to the title of the thread
it really exposes how amaral claims are based on evidence taht has been totally misrepresented
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on June 28, 2017, 03:21:31 PM
I wonder what "Subtitles are for information Refer to official Portuguese for correct translation", at the beginning of the video means?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on June 28, 2017, 04:52:44 PM
Why does Amaral need a defence? He has broken no laws by promoting his theory.
He doesnt and it seems he hasnt got a defence so my accusation must be true No one has been able to come up with any other explanation for his erroneous statements
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on June 28, 2017, 07:43:46 PM
He doesnt and it seems he hasnt got a defence so my accusation must be true No one has been able to come up with any other explanation for his erroneous statements
Maybe that's because nobody needs to.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 28, 2017, 07:45:16 PM
He doesnt and it seems he hasnt got a defence so my accusation must be true No one has been able to come up with any other explanation for his erroneous statements
Who do think cares about davel's accusations ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2017, 07:48:50 PM
Nobody needs to but the fact that no one can indicates that my conclusion is true
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 28, 2017, 08:03:47 PM
I've made the point I wished to make very well And it had nothing to do with amaral
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on June 29, 2017, 12:52:45 AM
He appears to enjoy universal acquiescence in Portugal irrespective of whatever notion pops into his head. He is certainly allowed plenty of air time allowing him to make assertions which would be unacceptable in countries where defamation is considered an offence.
We can't make unsubstantiated claims on this forum. Post something and someone will ask you for a cite if you haven't already given one.
At the opening of O Enigma an unfounded assertion is made by Amaral about the possibility a child may have been cremated along with a body which had been lying in repose overnight in the church of Nossa Senhora da Luz. That child being Madeleine McCann.
At this point in time there is as great a chance of Madeleine surviving May third as there is that she met with a fatality ~ so how does Amaral 'know' she is dead.
Portuguese television continues to give Amaral an unquestioning vehicle to promote his views; how is he able to come up with a variety of weird theories for getting rid of a corpse without someone asking what proof of death he bases them on?
Amaral is allowed to pontificate on a nameless British woman's cremation ~ along with the body of a child smuggled into church and into her coffin ~ without being asked for any proof regarding the veracity of his declaration?
How strange is that?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on June 29, 2017, 04:13:02 PM
Amaral claims that his sacking from the McCann case did not interrupt his police career. He was getting along very well indeed and climbing the career ladder up which he could have climbed higher. When Madeleine disappeared he had applied to be promoted to superior coordinator of the Judiciary Police ... and he seemed to be confident of gaining that promotion.
His change of direction from his chosen career and his resignation from that chosen career couldn't possibly have had anything to do with his conduct of Madeleine McCann's case and his subsequent sacking from it, could it? Or might it have had something to do with his upcoming perjury trial and the consideration that half a pension on resignation was better than no pension at all on criminal conviction? Whatever, I don't think either happenstance would have enhanced his hoped for continued career pathway.
O Enigma certainly seems to be less about the ten years missing child and all about eulogising Amaral. Perhaps I'm missing something somewhere ... then perhaps the TV anchors are ensuring their audiences are missing a lot more.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on June 29, 2017, 04:18:16 PM
No case against the McCanns had ever been presented by the prosecution in the absence of a crime being verified which was the correct call by the AG. The SC had no jurisdiction to rule on the absence of proof of innocence in what was a civil case & alter the archiving report accordingly.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 29, 2017, 04:28:18 PM
Amaral claims that his sacking from the McCann case did not interrupt his police career. He was getting along very well indeed and climbing the career ladder up which he could have climbed higher. When Madeleine disappeared he had applied to be promoted to superior coordinator of the Judiciary Police ... and he seemed to be confident of gaining that promotion.
His change of direction from his chosen career and his resignation from that chosen career couldn't possibly have had anything to do with his conduct of Madeleine McCann's case and his subsequent sacking from it, could it? Or might it have had something to do with his upcoming perjury trial and the consideration that half a pension on resignation was better than no pension at all on criminal conviction? Whatever, I don't think either happenstance would have enhanced his hoped for continued career pathway.
O Enigma certainly seems to be less about the ten years missing child and all about eulogising Amaral. Perhaps I'm missing something somewhere ... then perhaps the TV anchors are ensuring their audiences are missing a lot more.
It was simply consumer product, and to be successful, had to give the Portuguese consumers what they wanted to consume. The Sky and Panorama specials were similarly geared to consumer tastes in the UK.
Sauce for goose and sauce for gander.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on June 29, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
It was simply consumer product, and to be successful, had to give the Portuguese consumers what they wanted to consume. The Sky and Panorama specials were similarly geared to consumer tastes in the UK.
Sauce for goose and sauce for gander.
IMO the UK public would like to know what really happened to Madeleine on 3/5/07. Do you consider that the Portuguese public are content with the ramblings of an officer long since removed from the case which bear little relation to either the files or current investigations?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on June 29, 2017, 04:41:05 PM
It was simply consumer product, and to be successful, had to give the Portuguese consumers what they wanted to consume. The Sky and Panorama specials were similarly geared to consumer tastes in the UK.
Sauce for goose and sauce for gander.
... and I am the one quite often accused of xenophobia &%+((£ 'Documentaries' such as O Enigma must indeed have a target audience ...
IMO the UK public would like to know what really happened to Madeleine on 3/5/07. Do you consider that the Portuguese public are content with the ramblings of an officer long since removed from the case which bear little relation to either the files or current investigations?
I am sure they would. That,however, will not be realised by the prattlings of professional prattlers and retired police officers. Politicians, generals and police officers should have their mouths stitched up on retirement...IMNSHO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on June 29, 2017, 05:19:50 PM
Yet no one else has been found to have been in that apartment on the night Madeleine disappeared.
As far as you know.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on June 29, 2017, 11:54:59 PM
Why did the anchor ask Goncalo Amaral if he felt he was the victim? Is there any doubt that Madeleine is the primary victim with her family the secondary victims?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on June 30, 2017, 10:30:29 AM
Back to O Enigma ... why did the anchor ask about Amaral's status as a victim? I know he has been portrayed as such in the past by his supporters but the man himself seemed keen to disengage from that image now.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on June 30, 2017, 11:24:31 AM
I'm gobsmacked if anyone can watch this video (and others) and come to the conclusion that it is the McCanns own fault if the PT people have turned against them. IMO Amaral has been allowed to feed the PT public a continuous diet of disinformation and misinformation for the last 10 years - with never a hint of a challenge in sight! Isn't that exactly how propaganda works? That would never be allowed to happen in this country - where opposing opinions are required for the sake of balance and fairness.
Add that to the vicious smear campaign conducted against the McCanns in the media from day one - and the natural desire of the Portuguese to want the perpetrator to be a 'foreigner' - and is it any surprise if the totally one sided campaign against them has apparently been so successful.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 30, 2017, 11:58:34 AM
I'm gobsmacked if anyone can watch this video (and others) and come to the conclusion that it is the McCanns own fault if the PT people have turned against them. IMO Amaral has been allowed to feed the PT public a continuous diet of disinformation and misinformation for the last 10 years - with never a hint of a challenge in sight! Isn't that exactly how propaganda works? That would never be allowed to happen in this country - where opposing opinions are required for the sake of balance and fairness.
Add that to the vicious smear campaign conducted against the McCanns in the media from day one - and the natural desire of the Portuguese to want the perpetrator to be a 'foreigner' - and is it any surprise if the totally one sided campaign against them has apparently been so successful.
AIMHO
Amaral's actions and motivation have been examined by the Portuguese Courts and no sign of deliberately spreading disinformation was discovered. He has promoted his theory in his own country just as the McCanns have in theirs.
Anyone would think the Portuguese people just passively accept everything they are told by their media without question. I don't suppose they do, any more than people in the UK do. Scepticism regarding the MSM is higher than it's ever been. People laughed scornfully on Question Time last night at the suggestion that the UK media presents balanced news. To many, the newspapers in particular are irrelevant these days.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on June 30, 2017, 12:47:58 PM
Amaral's actions and motivation have been examined by the Portuguese Courts and no sign of deliberately spreading disinformation was discovered. He has promoted his theory in his own country just as the McCanns have in theirs.
Anyone would think the Portuguese people just passively accept everything they are told by their media without question. I don't suppose they do, any more than people in the UK do. Scepticism regarding the MSM is higher than it's ever been. People laughed scornfully on Question Time last night at the suggestion that the UK media presents balanced news. To many, the newspapers in particular are irrelevant these days.
The last guest to speak apparently conducted a survey to see who among his contacts buys a newspaper these days and not one admitted to doing so. I think if you want some entertaining reading buy a newspaper but if you want to find out the truth of what is happening in the country then don't bother. Just about every news organisation is politically driven to promote a certain point of view so if it's an unbiased read you want forget it. I think the BBC for all its woes comes closest to what we really expect from a news gatherer these days, at least the director general is accountable.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 30, 2017, 01:05:19 PM
I'm gobsmacked if anyone can watch this video (and others) and come to the conclusion that it is the McCanns own fault if the PT people have turned against them. IMO Amaral has been allowed to feed the PT public a continuous diet of disinformation and misinformation for the last 10 years - with never a hint of a challenge in sight! Isn't that exactly how propaganda works? That would never be allowed to happen in this country - where opposing opinions are required for the sake of balance and fairness.
Add that to the vicious smear campaign conducted against the McCanns in the media from day one - and the natural desire of the Portuguese to want the perpetrator to be a 'foreigner' - and is it any surprise if the totally one sided campaign against them has apparently been so successful.
AIMHO
I find that stuffed with nonsense and disinformation, so much so that I will not bother replying to it point by point.
Just one allegation - the natural desire of the Portuguese to want the perpetrator to be a 'foreigner'. What rubbish. Have you actually looked at the photos or videos of the early days in Luz and the support and backing afforded by the Portuguese community in Luz? Have you read Kate's book? Did the Portuguese people immediately hope it was Johnny Brit wot dun it?
It would be helpful if your posts contained a degree of veracity when you are making such assertions. Sticking AIMHO on it does not cut the mustard.
AIMHO. 8((()*/
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on June 30, 2017, 01:14:50 PM
I find that stuffed with nonsense and disinformation, so much so that I will not bother replying to it point by point.
Just one allegation - the natural desire of the Portuguese to want the perpetrator to be a 'foreigner'. What rubbish. Have you actually looked at the photos or videos of the early days in Luz and the support and backing afforded by the Portuguese community in Luz? Have you read Kate's book? Did the Portuguese people immediately hope it was Johnny Brit wot dun it?
It would be helpful if your posts contained a degree of veracity when you are making such assertions. Sticking AIMHO on it does not cut the mustard.
AIMHO. 8((()*/
I find (Benice's) post to be (pretty much) spot-on, except with the proviso that I'm sure many decent Portuguese citizens have not swallowed the propaganda, and have reached a sensible and balanced assessment of all the information.
I think their integrity in doing so, against the tide of disinformation that has spewed out from so many sources is to be applauded.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 30, 2017, 01:30:21 PM
I find (Benice's) post to be (pretty much) spot-on, except with the proviso that I'm sure many decent Portuguese citizens have not swallowed the propaganda, and have reached a sensible and balanced assessment of all the information.
I think their integrity in doing so, against the tide of disinformation that has spewed out from so many sources is to be applauded.
I think the word 'disinformation' requires evidence of a deliberate intention to deceive by spreading false information. Can that really be posted as if it was a fact?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 30, 2017, 01:47:35 PM
I think the word 'disinformation' requires evidence of a deliberate intention to deceive by spreading false information. Can that really be posted as if it was a fact?
It is difficult to prove but what is a fact is that FALSE information has been promoted That is 100% true The video that is the subject of this thread is a perfect example
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on June 30, 2017, 01:49:50 PM
I find (Benice's) post to be (pretty much) spot-on, except with the proviso that I'm sure many decent Portuguese citizens have not swallowed the propaganda, and have reached a sensible and balanced assessment of all the information.
I think their integrity in doing so, against the tide of disinformation that has spewed out from so many sources is to be applauded.
This is the type of propaganda that really needs to be scythed down. The idea that 'decent' people have reached a 'sensible and balanced assessment' is low on facts and reeking with emotion.
Portugal is a country with a lot of decent people in it. The fact that most do not support the McCanns seems not to be to your liking. But the fact remains that the bulk of these decent people do not support the McCanns.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on June 30, 2017, 01:52:04 PM
This is the type of propaganda that really needs to be scythed down. The idea that 'decent' people have reached a 'sensible and balanced assessment' is low on facts and reeking with emotion.
Portugal is a country with a lot of decent people in it. The fact that most do not support the McCanns seems not to be to your liking. But the fact remains that the bulk of these decent people do not support the McCanns.
Perhaps there are some (otherwise) decent people in Portugal who have been suckkered in by the disinformation and propaganda.
Dunno!
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2017, 01:55:28 PM
This is the type of propaganda that really needs to be scythed down. The idea that 'decent' people have reached a 'sensible and balanced assessment' is low on facts and reeking with emotion.
Portugal is a country with a lot of decent people in it. The fact that most do not support the McCanns seems not to be to your liking. But the fact remains that the bulk of these decent people do not support the McCanns.
Portugal is full of decent people But they have been fed false information See the above video for proof
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2017, 02:17:47 PM
Just your opinion, and shared by some Mccann supporters.
The crime remains undetermined, no matter the bluster.
Amaral has and had his theories. No one is forcing you to believe them, and that applies to the 'abduction' scenario as well.
People can decide for themselves.
What is it the sceptics think Amaral can achieve by continually promoting so much nonsense? Quite clearly there would be absolutely no way the McCanns could ever be prosecuted in Portugal due to the excessive media output, scuppering any chance of a fair trial. What motive can he possibly have, other than making money & sticking the knife into all those who have suffered as a result of Madeleine's "fate unknown"?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on June 30, 2017, 02:38:12 PM
What is it the sceptics think Amaral can achieve by continually promoting so much nonsense? Quite clearly there would be absolutely no way the McCanns could ever be prosecuted in Portugal due to the excessive media output, scuppering any chance of a fair trial. What motive can he possibly have, other than making money & sticking the knife into all those who have suffered as a result of Madeleine's "fate unknown"?
What is it that supporters think they achieve by continually slagging Amaral off ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2017, 02:47:38 PM
What is it the sceptics think Amaral can achieve by continually promoting so much nonsense? Quite clearly there would be absolutely no way the McCanns could ever be prosecuted in Portugal due to the excessive media output, scuppering any chance of a fair trial. What motive can he possibly have, other than making money & sticking the knife into all those who have suffered as a result of Madeleine's "fate unknown"?
That is one key point.
No matter the bluster, the crime remains undetermined.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2017, 02:48:44 PM
Portugal is full of decent people But they have been fed false information See the above video for proof
I remember asking for a sub-forum in Portuguese, so that we could get Portuguese people on board. I did not realise at the time that most Portuguese people speak high-quality English, so that venture was not necessary.
The stats for my blog show Portugal as one of the highest readerships, so there are people in this country who are interested in the case, but not very many. I have never seen any stats for this forum, but I would predict the same pattern.
You may be making a fundamental error in your analysis. Of the 4 media experts I met around the 10th anniversary, the issue I had was in simplifying things down to the basics. They do not spend hours immersing themselves in the details of the case. That is not their job. They are there to make sellable product.
I also dealt with Panorama, and that was different. They credited 2 researchers, one of whom has been associated with the case for many years.
I doubt very much that the great British public contains more than a few people who are well-educated on Madeleine. And I would be surprised if they were nearly all McCann supporters. But decency does not come into it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 30, 2017, 03:47:35 PM
I remember asking for a sub-forum in Portuguese, so that we could get Portuguese people on board. I did not realise at the time that most Portuguese people speak high-quality English, so that venture was not necessary.
The stats for my blog show Portugal as one of the highest readerships, so there are people in this country who are interested in the case, but not very many. I have never seen any stats for this forum, but I would predict the same pattern.
You may be making a fundamental error in your analysis. Of the 4 media experts I met around the 10th anniversary, the issue I had was in simplifying things down to the basics. They do not spend hours immersing themselves in the details of the case. That is not their job. They are there to make sellable product.
I also dealt with Panorama, and that was different. They credited 2 researchers, one of whom has been associated with the case for many years.
I doubt very much that the great British public contains more than a few people who are well-educated on Madeleine. And I would be surprised if they were nearly all McCann supporters. But decency does not come into it.
False information
Amaral claims the dogs signalled cadaver odour ... That is not confirmed...... False information
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on June 30, 2017, 03:52:19 PM
Amaral has expressed opinions as to what happened to Madeleine based on his own knowledge and experience of being directly involved in the case from day one until his unceremonial removal. Nobody was closer to the case for those five months than he was which has to account for something regardless of ones views. He might be right or he might be completely wrong, only time will tell.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on June 30, 2017, 03:54:33 PM
Amaral has expressed opinions as to what happened to Madeleine based on his own knowledge and experience of being directly involved in the case from day one until his unceremonial removal. Nobody was closer to the case for those five months than he was which has to account for something regardless of ones views. He might be right or he might be completely wrong, only time will tell.
Amaral is claiming he is right That's the problem He doesnt say there may have been a cadaver in 5a He says it has been shown there was one That is totally false information
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 30, 2017, 04:48:43 PM
I think Grime also used the term What he didn't say was how suggestive they were Harrison stated clearly no inference could be drawn from the alerts yet Amaral does I'm stating facts not opinion
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on June 30, 2017, 04:54:44 PM
The experts said that the dog indicated to what he was trained to alert to, which, in Eddie's case, was more than pure cadaver scent. Just because the dog alerts it doesn't follow that a cadaver was there, it could be as a result of contaminated item having been brought into the apartment at another point in time.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on June 30, 2017, 05:10:10 PM
Most certainly it can be posted as fact and I have done so numerous times on this board.
You won't find the posts, though, because they are removed as fast as I type them.
Mark Harrison concluded his third, and final, report by admitting frankly that he had no idea what happened to Madeleine, but tentatively suggesting that if Madeleine is dead, he considers it most likely her remains were disposed of into the sea.
Which, of course, is why Amaral distorts, in his book, that Harrison directed a search for Madeleine's 'concealed and deceased remains' in the surrounding area.
But then we've been through all this, countless times.
There were never were two FSS reports (as claimed by Amaral).
And so on ....
Amaral never claimed there were two actual Reports, the preliminary results would have been passed to him and the PJ informally. If I recall, Martin Brunt certainly believed them sufficiently to go live on air and broadcast it?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 30, 2017, 05:13:30 PM
What is it the sceptics think Amaral can achieve by continually promoting so much nonsense? Quite clearly there would be absolutely no way the McCanns could ever be prosecuted in Portugal due to the excessive media output, scuppering any chance of a fair trial. What motive can he possibly have, other than making money & sticking the knife into all those who have suffered as a result of Madeleine's "fate unknown"?
I have never wondered what (if anything) Amaral is hoping to achieve. He wrote his book to explain his part in the investigation and he achieved his objective. He speaks on the subject when asked. like a lot of others do. The fact that the McCanns (and you) don't like him doing so is no concern of his; why should it be? If it's just nonsense I'm surprised people waste their time getting upset about it. It's a bit like when the media demonise people, it makes people wonder why.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on June 30, 2017, 05:16:36 PM
Amaral never claimed there were two actual Reports, the preliminary results would have been passed to him and the PJ informally. If I recall, Martin Brunt certainly believed them sufficiently to go live on air and broadcast it?
There were no 'preliminary results'.
A clip without a date.
Martin Brunt would not repeat any of that stuff today.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on June 30, 2017, 05:17:58 PM
I have never wondered what (if anything) Amaral is hoping to achieve. He wrote his book to explain his part in the investigation and he achieved his objective. He speaks on the subject when asked. like a lot of others do. The fact that the McCanns (and you) don't like him doing so is no concern of his; why should it be? If it's just nonsense I'm surprised people waste their time getting upset about it. It's a bit like when the media demonise people, it makes people wonder why.
Money is the root of all evil, personified by the words & actions of those you have mentioned.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on June 30, 2017, 05:22:08 PM
So are you disputing what Brunty claimed because what he was reading was NOT from the official FSS Report?
ie what he was reading were 'preliminary results'.
He was not.
He was reading an email explaining one result.
Sent Amaral foaming at the mouth because John Lowe did not (again) mention the (irrelevant) result from the boot of the car in his one -- and only -- report.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on June 30, 2017, 05:45:44 PM
So are you disputing what Brunty claimed because what he was reading was NOT from the official FSS Report?
ie what he was reading were 'preliminary results'.
Brunt was repeating a leak he had heard from the Portuguese investigation The only reference to a preliminary report is Levy There is no real evidence of any preliminary report To suggest the FSS deliberately lied about their results is highly defamatory
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2017, 06:50:20 PM
Brunt was repeating a leak he had heard from the Portuguese investigation The only reference to a preliminary report is Levy There is no real evidence of any preliminary report To suggest the FSS deliberately lied about their results is highly defamatory
Perhaps you can provide cites.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2017, 06:51:14 PM
Suggestive is not the same as indicate I think Grime also used the term May suggest What he didn't say was how suggestive they were Harrison stated clearly no inference could be drawn from the alerts yet Amaral does I'm stating facts not opinion
Then provide cites to prove your points.
Otherwise, they are merely opinions.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2017, 06:53:31 PM
Sent Amaral foaming at the mouth because John Lowe did not (again) mention the (irrelevant) result from the boot of the car in his one -- and only -- report.
Well, prove it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 30, 2017, 06:57:53 PM
So are you disputing what Brunty claimed because what he was reading was NOT from the official FSS Report?
ie what he was reading were 'preliminary results'.
He is just repeating what he has been told isn't he? The first few words " I've learnt some important detail of the forensic test results ...." It does says he has them or he has seen them but rather learnt them.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on June 30, 2017, 08:28:55 PM
There have been a multitude of false statements made by Amaral and the Portuguese media which have convinced the Portuguese of the Mccanns guilt
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on June 30, 2017, 08:44:01 PM
Are you really suggesting all the Portuguese public who believe Amarals ideas have read the files on line Surely not
Perhaps you can't comprehend why people don't believe the McCann's story of 'abduction'.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on July 01, 2017, 06:12:53 AM
I agree with the Assistant Chief Constable of Leicester Constabulary.
"While one or both of them [the McCanns] may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance."
The Foreign Office;
'You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted.' http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/75july13/AllVoices_09_07_2013.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on July 01, 2017, 09:51:44 AM
I agree with the Assistant Chief Constable of Leicester Constabulary.
"While one or both of them [the McCanns] may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance."
The Foreign Office;
'You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted.' http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/75july13/AllVoices_09_07_2013.htm
Oh, Gunit. How misleading. You post two now out of date snippets, one from 2008 and the other from 2009, which both state that there is no evidence to prove that the Mccanns are innocent... and that was correct, THEN
BUT YOU FAIL to post from the results of the more recent INVESTIGATIVE REVIEW dated JULY 2013. also in the same article by the two snippets you have posted!
"Neither her parents or any of the member (sic) of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects."
1. Last week, as part of Scotland Yard's decision to update the public on the progress of their 'investigative review' into the Madeleine McCann case, Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood stated: "Neither her parents or any of the member (sic) of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects."
2. the Assistant Chief Constable of Leicestershire Police, who stated in July 2008 that "While one or both of them [the McCanns] may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance." At that time the McCanns were attempting to gain access to all the documents held by Leicester Police regarding the disappearance of their daughter. The request was denied.
3. The British government's Foreign & Commonwealth Office also made their view clear, post-arguido, in December 2009, when responding to a Freedom of Information request about the missing child, Ben Needham. They wrote: 'You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted.'
As , there was no proof then, both 2 and 3 were correct at the time they were stated, but things have moved on. After the investigation, seems there is.
Why did you pick the two old pre-investigation reports to post up, but fail to post the later after- investigation report?
For them to be so positive, it seems SY and Porto PJ know who did it, IMO
But can they get enough evidence to prosecute?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on July 01, 2017, 10:22:57 AM
Oh, Gunit. How misleading. You post two now out of date snippets, one from 2008 and the other from 2009, which both state that there is no evidence to prove that the Mccanns are innocent... and that was correct, THEN
BUT YOU FAIL to post from the results of the more recent INVESTIGATIVE REVIEW dated JULY 2013. also in the same article by the two snippets you have posted!
"Neither her parents or any of the member (sic) of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects."
1. Last week, as part of Scotland Yard's decision to update the public on the progress of their 'investigative review' into the Madeleine McCann case, Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood stated: "Neither her parents or any of the member (sic) of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects."
2. the Assistant Chief Constable of Leicestershire Police, who stated in July 2008 that "While one or both of them [the McCanns] may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance." At that time the McCanns were attempting to gain access to all the documents held by Leicester Police regarding the disappearance of their daughter. The request was denied.
3. The British government's Foreign & Commonwealth Office also made their view clear, post-arguido, in December 2009, when responding to a Freedom of Information request about the missing child, Ben Needham. They wrote: 'You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted.'
As , there was no proof then, both 2 and 3 were correct at the time they were stated, but things have moved on. After the investigation, seems there is.
Why did you pick the two old pre-investigation reports to post up, but fail to post the later after- investigation report?
For them to be so positive, it seems SY and Porto PJ know who did it, IMO
But can they get enough evidence to prosecute?
I agree with the two quotes I posted. Nothing which has been said since has changed my mind.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on July 01, 2017, 10:43:21 AM
I find that stuffed with nonsense and disinformation, so much so that I will not bother replying to it point by point.
Just one allegation - the natural desire of the Portuguese to want the perpetrator to be a 'foreigner'. What rubbish. Have you actually looked at the photos or videos of the early days in Luz and the support and backing afforded by the Portuguese community in Luz? Have you read Kate's book? Did the Portuguese people immediately hope it was Johnny Brit wot dun it?
It would be helpful if your posts contained a degree of veracity when you are making such assertions. Sticking AIMHO on it does not cut the mustard.
AIMHO. 8((()*/
I'm not talking about the people of Luz. I'm aware that Kate and Gerry still have friends in Luz to this day. I'm talking about the vicious smear campaign which began on day one with the 'swingers' allegation - and the media smear campaign which followed and which has been continued by Amaral in the media ever since - as proved by this latest video.
The tourist industry is extremely important to Portugal. It doesn't take rocket science to work out that anything which threatens to damage it - like the abduction of a holiday maker's child by one of their own for instance, would be regarded as highly undesirable. For what other reason would the information regarding the UK children who had been sexually assaulted in their own beds in Portugal - be kept well away from holidaymakers if it wasn't to protect the tourist trade.
IMO it would be natural for Portuguese people to prefer the perpetrator to be proved to be a foreigner - especially in those particular circumstances - and who would blame them.
I'm surprised that you feel able to state as a fact your opinion that 'the bulk of decent people in Portugal do not support the McCanns' - but object because I gave my opinion as to why that could be the case - IF indeed it is the case. .
I can only assume you haven't watched the O Enigma video. Perhaps you should start by reading the disgraceful allegations made against Dr. Payne as just one glaring example of blatant 'disinformation' before you question the veracity of my post. How anyone can justify that crock of poison is beyond me.
Incidentally AFAIAC all posters on this forum always post their genuinely held opinions and it would never occur to me to question any poster's veracity simply because I didn't agree with or didn't like their opinion. Your comment is offensive and uncalled for.
And yes - there are many decent folk in Portugal. I would definitely count Henrique Monteiro, a past Chief Editor, of the highly respected Portuguese newspaper the Expresso as being one of them. How about you?
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on July 01, 2017, 11:07:22 AM
I agree with the Assistant Chief Constable of Leicester Constabulary.
"While one or both of them [the McCanns] may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance."
The Foreign Office;
'You will also be aware of the Madeleine McCann case. Both this and the Needham case are categorised as a missing persons, rather than child abduction cases, as there is no evidence in either case to support whether the children were or were not abducted.'
The McCanns were arguidos at the time. No way would a senior UK police officer publicly say anything that would show disrespect for the decision of the Portuguese Judiciary to make them arguidos. To do so would have caused a diplomatic incident. Instead he chose the middle 'diplomatic' route IMO.
I doubt if he would repeat the same today.
As it happens I believe the McCanns were badly advised to request files whilst they were arguidos as it inevitably put our UK police in a difficult position.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on July 01, 2017, 12:51:18 PM
I agree with the two quotes I posted. Nothing which has been said since has changed my mind.
In O Enigma Goncalo Amaral continues to promote the 'accidental death' hypothesis he came up with at the time ... it involved overdosing on Calpol I believe.
If like him you believe that nothing changes and issues of the time remain set in stone that is indeed your prerogative.
However time does move on and it is a strange person who accepts the death inducing attributes ascribed to Calpol by Amaral as being remotely possible. Just as it is extraordinary for anyone involved in the conduct of Madeleine's case to misunderstand the significance post Leveson of the reasoning behind your selective quotes which could be described as "o tempora o mores".
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 01, 2017, 01:04:14 PM
In O Enigma Goncalo Amaral continues to promote the 'accidental death' hypothesis he came up with at the time ... it involved overdosing on Calpol I believe.
If like him you believe that nothing changes and issues of the time remain set in stone that is indeed your prerogative.
However time does move on and it is a strange person who accepts the death inducing attributes ascribed to Calpol by Amaral as being remotely possible. Just as it is extraordinary for anyone involved in the conduct of Madeleine's case to misunderstand the significance post Leveson of the reasoning behind your selective quotes which could be described as "o tempora o mores".
Freely translated as "The Thunderer and The Revenuers"... 8(0(* Tho' I doubt Cicero had that in mind. Was the comment aimed at the inhabitants of Colchester? Britains Oldest recorded town inhabited yet by the odd Roman or two?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on July 01, 2017, 01:31:33 PM
In O Enigma Goncalo Amaral continues to promote the 'accidental death' hypothesis he came up with at the time ... it involved overdosing on Calpol I believe.
If like him you believe that nothing changes and issues of the time remain set in stone that is indeed your prerogative.
However time does move on and it is a strange person who accepts the death inducing attributes ascribed to Calpol by Amaral as being remotely possible. Just as it is extraordinary for anyone involved in the conduct of Madeleine's case to misunderstand the significance post Leveson of the reasoning behind your selective quotes which could be described as "o tempora o mores".
Strangely my post has been removed, but your post says it so much better IMO. Thanks Brietta.
Gunit chose to cherry pick two very early opinions, and chose to ignore the statement by SY AFTER THE INVESTIGATION, which may have well found out things that we do not know about.
Well done Gunit. True to form
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 01, 2017, 02:52:47 PM
I'm not talking about the people of Luz. I'm aware that Kate and Gerry still have friends in Luz to this day. I'm talking about the vicious smear campaign which began on day one with the 'swingers' allegation - and the media smear campaign which followed and which has been continued by Amaral in the media ever since - as proved by this latest video.
The tourist industry is extremely important to Portugal. It doesn't take rocket science to work out that anything which threatens to damage it - like the abduction of a holiday maker's child by one of their own for instance, would be regarded as highly undesirable. For what other reason would the information regarding the UK children who had been sexually assaulted in their own beds in Portugal - be kept well away from holidaymakers if it wasn't to protect the tourist trade.
IMO it would be natural for Portuguese people to prefer the perpetrator to be proved to be a foreigner - especially in those particular circumstances - and who would blame them.
I'm surprised that you feel able to state as a fact your opinion that 'the bulk of decent people in Portugal do not support the McCanns' - but object because I gave my opinion as to why that could be the case - IF indeed it is the case. .
I can only assume you haven't watched the O Enigma video. Perhaps you should start by reading the disgraceful allegations made against Dr. Payne as just one glaring example of blatant 'disinformation' before you question the veracity of my post. How anyone can justify that crock of poison is beyond me.
Incidentally AFAIAC all posters on this forum always post their genuinely held opinions and it would never occur to me to question any poster's veracity simply because I didn't agree with or didn't like their opinion. Your comment is offensive and uncalled for.
And yes - there are many decent folk in Portugal. I would definitely count Henrique Monteiro, a past Chief Editor, of the highly respected Portuguese newspaper the Expresso as being one of them. How about you?
AIMHO
I do wish you would cut down on propaganda that you can't substantiate. Adding an AIMHO as a standard ending to 100% of your posts does not make it anything other than propaganda.
I didn't give an opinion based on nothing. I have already quoted the CdM poll re the SC decision which was overwhelmingly in favour of the result against the McCanns.
I have seen so much rubbish on this forum, much of it dished out by supporters who are sitting in England, most who have never visited Portugal let alone Luz. Frankly, I have had my fill, and whenever this tripe is trotted out, it is going to get savaged.
The allegation that the tourist trade was hiding sexual assaults in the Algarve. Either prove that a representative of the Ocean Club knew of these, or pipe down.
The allegation that the Portuguese people want it to be a foreigner. Either prove that this is the case or stop churning it out as a given.
London is a major tourist destination. DCI Nicola Wall did a cold case review of an American who was stabbed to death whilst jogging through a London park. She failed to crack it. By your illogic, this would be down to DCI Wall and the British public not wanting the murderer to be a Brit, in case it adversely affected the tourist industry.
It's nonsense in DCI Wall's case. And it is nonsense in Madeleine's case. And churning such propaganda out does not help Madeleine one iota.
You are entitled to your opinion. However, when that broadcasts an entirely negative view of our host country and is based purely on supposition, don't be surprised to find I counter it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Innominate on July 01, 2017, 03:18:16 PM
This is, I believe, the relevant section (chapter 15) in The Truth of the Lie:
-- snip ---
In order to conceal his crime, the murderer can hide the body, or alter the crime scene in such a way as to divert suspicion. But this is not always the case. Someone may also get rid of a body without having committed a criminal act. For what reasons? Fear, for example, of being judged by his peers.
Imagine a couple of doctors going on holiday abroad, to a country they hardly know. They leave their three children to sleep alone in their apartment to go to a restaurant, a hundred metres away. When they come back, one of the children is dead. It could be an accident or murder. What do they do? They call the police and, in a way, admit that they were more than negligent. And what will happen when they go back home? What will the consequences be? Will their professional future be compromised? Will they be charged? Will they retain custody of the younger ones?
As I said at the start of the book, no lead must be abandoned while it has not technically been ruled out.
-------
Mr Amaral is merely pointing out various possibilities. I do not see any reason he is promoting "Death by Calpol" as being his hypothesis.
For instance, he is pointing out that "Someone may also get rid of a body" even though they did not commit a criminal act.
I have no idea what happened, but Mr Amaral is, on my interpretation, stating that MBM could have died in an accident or been murdered.
A murder would involve a third party, but there is no guarantee that the murderer moved the body. Another third party could have moved the body.
MBM could have died in a 'hit and run' and, again, another third party could have moved the body.
It seems to me to be fair game to scrutinise his theories, but I do not believe that he has limited himself to one particular theory as there is no strong evidence as to what happened.
He does appear to be giving weight to the 'intelligence' from the dog alert in the apartment, which in his view indicates that either MBM died in the apartment or her body was temporarily moved to the apartment.
AFAIK there is no evidence at present to implicate any third party, and it is my understanding that no third party (especially the parents) are currently suspects.
Abduction is another valid theory.
Mr Amaral states:
At a certain stage in the investigation, to explain Madeleine's disappearance, we had considered the scenario of the concealment of a body. But before coming to that conclusion, we had to exhaust all leads that favoured the theory of abduction.
They are all theories (of course, not all theories are created equal). At present SY are trying to determine what happened to MBM. I hope they are successful.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 01, 2017, 03:32:27 PM
I'm not talking about the people of Luz. I'm aware that Kate and Gerry still have friends in Luz to this day. I'm talking about the vicious smear campaign which began on day one with the 'swingers' allegation - and the media smear campaign which followed and which has been continued by Amaral in the media ever since - as proved by this latest video.
The tourist industry is extremely important to Portugal. It doesn't take rocket science to work out that anything which threatens to damage it - like the abduction of a holiday maker's child by one of their own for instance, would be regarded as highly undesirable. For what other reason would the information regarding the UK children who had been sexually assaulted in their own beds in Portugal - be kept well away from holidaymakers if it wasn't to protect the tourist trade.
IMO it would be natural for Portuguese people to prefer the perpetrator to be proved to be a foreigner - especially in those particular circumstances - and who would blame them.
I'm surprised that you feel able to state as a fact your opinion that 'the bulk of decent people in Portugal do not support the McCanns' - but object because I gave my opinion as to why that could be the case - IF indeed it is the case. .
I can only assume you haven't watched the O Enigma video. Perhaps you should start by reading the disgraceful allegations made against Dr. Payne as just one glaring example of blatant 'disinformation' before you question the veracity of my post. How anyone can justify that crock of poison is beyond me.
Incidentally AFAIAC all posters on this forum always post their genuinely held opinions and it would never occur to me to question any poster's veracity simply because I didn't agree with or didn't like their opinion. Your comment is offensive and uncalled for.
And yes - there are many decent folk in Portugal. I would definitely count Henrique Monteiro, a past Chief Editor, of the highly respected Portuguese newspaper the Expresso as being one of them. How about you?
AIMHO
You have made several allegations there, which are really your opinion dressed up as facts.
I suggest you supply some cites to back up your claims.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on July 01, 2017, 03:40:30 PM
In O Enigma Goncalo Amaral continues to promote the 'accidental death' hypothesis he came up with at the time ... it involved overdosing on Calpol I believe.
If like him you believe that nothing changes and issues of the time remain set in stone that is indeed your prerogative.
However time does move on and it is a strange person who accepts the death inducing attributes ascribed to Calpol by Amaral as being remotely possible. Just as it is extraordinary for anyone involved in the conduct of Madeleine's case to misunderstand the significance post Leveson of the reasoning behind your selective quotes which could be described as "o tempora o mores".
I have examined the Portuguese files and I found no evidence which eliminates her parents from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance. I also found no evidence that an abduction occurred.
Various pronouncements have been made since, but no new evidence has been released so until it is the situation remains as it was in my opinion.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 01, 2017, 04:47:36 PM
I have examined the Portuguese files and I found no evidence which eliminates her parents from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance. I also found no evidence that an abduction occurred.
Various pronouncements have been made since, but no new evidence has been released so until it is the situation remains as it was in my opinion.
The way the law works is that evidence of incrimination needs to be found and there is no real evidence of incrimination There is lots of evidence that the McCanns are not involved
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on July 01, 2017, 04:49:52 PM
I have examined the Portuguese files and I found no evidence which eliminates her parents from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance. I also found no evidence that an abduction occurred.
Various pronouncements have been made since, but no new evidence has been released so until it is the situation remains as it was in my opinion.
Nor have you found any evidence that implicates The Mccanns
... but SY, who are not sharing the findings of their investigations and are working with Porto PJ, say
"Neither her parents or any of the member (sic) of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects."
That is the latest announcement AFTER the investigations ... yours were BEFORE the investigations.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 01, 2017, 04:58:13 PM
I do wish you would cut down on propaganda that you can't substantiate. Adding an AIMHO as a standard ending to 100% of your posts does not make it anything other than propaganda.
I didn't give an opinion based on nothing. I have already quoted the CdM poll re the SC decision which was overwhelmingly in favour of the result against the McCanns.
I have seen so much rubbish on this forum, much of it dished out by supporters who are sitting in England, most who have never visited Portugal let alone Luz. Frankly, I have had my fill, and whenever this tripe is trotted out, it is going to get savaged.
The allegation that the tourist trade was hiding sexual assaults in the Algarve. Either prove that a representative of the Ocean Club knew of these, or pipe down.
The allegation that the Portuguese people want it to be a foreigner. Either prove that this is the case or stop churning it out as a given.
London is a major tourist destination. DCI Nicola Wall did a cold case review of an American who was stabbed to death whilst jogging through a London park. She failed to crack it. By your illogic, this would be down to DCI Wall and the British public not wanting the murderer to be a Brit, in case it adversely affected the tourist industry.
It's nonsense in DCI Wall's case. And it is nonsense in Madeleine's case. And churning such propaganda out does not help Madeleine one iota.
You are entitled to your opinion. However, when that broadcasts an entirely negative view of our host country and is based purely on supposition, don't be surprised to find I counter it.
You make a statement that most supporters have never visited portugal How do you know that You dont
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on July 01, 2017, 05:06:35 PM
The way the law works is that evidence of incrimination needs to be found and there is no real evidence of incrimination There is lots of evidence that the McCanns are not involved
Together with lots of evidence that material from the files has been distorted, misrepresented and misconstrued, not least (but far from exclusively) by the chap who first coordinated the investigation.
What's his name? ......
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on July 01, 2017, 05:08:50 PM
Together with lots of evidence that material from the files has been distorted, misrepresented and misconstrued, not least (but far from exclusively) by the chap who first coordinated the investigation.
What's his name? ......
I.Y.O.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 01, 2017, 05:44:09 PM
Nor have you found any evidence that implicates The Mccanns
... but SY, who are not sharing the findings of their investigations and are working with Porto PJ, say
"Neither her parents or any of the member (sic) of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects."
That is the latest announcement AFTER the investigations ... yours were BEFORE the investigations.
The interesting question is why "Neither her parents or any of the member (sic) of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects."
Is it because the first investigation eliminated them? Not according to the Supreme Court judges.
Is it because OG investigated them and eliminated them? Not in my opinion, based on what has been said.
Is it because they started with one word; abduction? Yes, it's in their remit and it has been confirmed elsewhere.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 01, 2017, 06:09:54 PM
Do I say nothing? Have you been reading this thread? 8((()*/
Yes I have read the thread and all I see from you is criticism of those who do not post their opinion as fact You continue to post your opinion as fact as does amaral Your opinion is your opinion Nothing more unless you can offer proof I've visited Portugal several times The people are lovely From what I have read online the police are not
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on July 01, 2017, 06:35:19 PM
Amaral might have taken 4 and 4 and got 9 but as chief investigator he was and still is best placed to offer an opinion as to what might have happened to the missing child. Those who funded and directed the private investigators purporting to be acting for the parents have a huge case to answer in my opinion and that is what police should be investigating. If the parents have nothing to hide then publish the secretive Oakley Report.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 01, 2017, 06:46:17 PM
Yes I have read the thread and all I see from you is criticism of those who do not post their opinion as fact You continue to post your opinion as fact as does amaral Your opinion is your opinion Nothing more unless you can offer proof I've visited Portugal several times The people are lovely From what I have read online the police are not
My posts are subject to the same forum rules and the same moderation team as yours.
If you think I am breaching the rules in any post, kindly report it to the moderators, who will deal with your complaint in an appropriate manner.
As to the police, we have been fined twice and our car arrested once. I cannot complain. If one is doing 80kph in a 50kph zone, it is called speeding.
The police I have met in such encounters and others have been polite and professional. Consequently, your opinion of online opinion makes no difference. IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 01, 2017, 06:55:07 PM
SY have looked at all the original work done by the PJ re the parents Based on this they are happy to say the parents are not suspects Seems very clear to me
Given that the original work by the PJ did not rule out the parents it seems very clear to me that the parents have not been ruled out.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on July 02, 2017, 12:12:27 AM
Amaral might have taken 4 and 4 and got 9 but as chief investigator he was and still is best placed to offer an opinion as to what might have happened to the missing child. Those who funded and directed the private investigators purporting to be acting for the parents have a huge case to answer in my opinion and that is what police should be investigating. If the parents have nothing to hide then publish the secretive Oakley Report.
Why?
Amongst other things, Amaral concluded that Harrison concluded that Madeleine had been hidden on the beach.
Actually, Harrison explicitly ruled out burial and (tentatively!) concluded that, if Madeleine was dead, it was most likely her remains had been thrown into sea.
You know, ....
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on July 02, 2017, 12:18:35 AM
But NSY believes in abduction and that is.what matters. 8(0(*
The reasoning behind that statement would be good for a laugh I am sure. Tell us how you have figured that out?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on July 02, 2017, 07:20:22 AM
Reply to ShiningInLuz post dated 1st July
My replies are in blue
I do wish you would cut down on propaganda that you can't substantiate. Adding an AIMHO as a standard ending to 100% of your posts does not make it anything other than propaganda.
Pointing out the gross disinformation and misinformation contained in Amaral's video is not spreading propaganda - it's exposing it.
I didn't give an opinion based on nothing. I have already quoted the CdM poll re the SC decision which was overwhelmingly in favour of the result against the McCanns.
AFAIK CdM is a tabloid newspaper and the poll you quote only relates to people who read it. There are 10 million people in Portugal - the vast percentage of whom presumably did not participate in this poll. If that is the case then sorry - but to to claim that the bulk of decent people in Portugal do not support the McCanns on the strength of one poll in a newspaper (which appears to be on a par with our SUN) - is not enough to convince me. I am also intrigued to know on what grounds you decided who the 'decent' people in Portugal are -.
I have seen so much rubbish on this forum, much of it dished out by supporters who are sitting in England, most who have never visited Portugal let alone Luz. Frankly, I have had my fill, and whenever this tripe is trotted out, it is going to get savaged.
As far as I know living in Portugal doesn't give anyone a superior knowledge of this case. The files and the info we all have access to remain exactly the same regardless of where posters live.
The allegation that the tourist trade was hiding sexual assaults in the Algarve. Either prove that a representative of the Ocean Club knew of these, or pipe down.
No need to be so rude: Quote from Kate's book. Page 295
I got it touch with the retired British Consul for the Algarve. He told me that he used to have regular monthly meetings with British tour operators along the cost in Albufeira, at which crime was invariably one of the topics covered. At one of these meetings in August 2006 he had been informed by the tour operators of the spate of incidents I'd heard about the day after Madeleine was taken, in which an intruder had got into holiday apartments at night, climbed into children's beds and subjected them to various forms and degrees of molestation. It seemed the attacker would often lock the door to the parents' bedroom before assaulting the child. In one case the paedophile had put on some of the father's aftershave in an attempt to soothe or deceive the child.
It was believed that this offender (or offenders) watched for patterns and routines in family's behaviour, established 'weaknesses' in the security of the apartment and determined in advance where parents and children slept. Cold shivers ran down my spine as it hit home that this might have applied to us. The British tour operators had been keen for this information to remain confidential (and you don't have to be a genius to work out why that might be). End Quote
The allegation that the Portuguese people want it to be a foreigner. Either prove that this is the case or stop churning it out as a given.
It was not an allegation it was an opinion based on reason and logic and was neither insulting nor critical. No-one is obliged to agree with it. This is a discussion forum - we are allowed to express opinions....... even those which differ vastly from yours.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: slartibartfast on July 02, 2017, 07:37:01 AM
Amongst other things, Amaral concluded that Harrison concluded that Madeleine had been hidden on the beach.
Actually, Harrison explicitly ruled out burial and (tentatively!) concluded that, if Madeleine was dead, it was most likely her remains had been thrown into sea.
You know, ....
Why do you continue to equate burried and hidden?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on July 02, 2017, 08:45:09 AM
Please let's start the day with Polite Responses. Otherwise I am going to get cross.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on July 02, 2017, 11:10:54 AM
In an interview to the El Mundo magazine, Amaral said that Madeleine had been hidden on the beach and, when asked whether, by that, he meant buried, replied, we do not know.
Presumably a grudging (unacknowledged) nod to the fact that Harrison explicitly ruled out burial.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 02, 2017, 11:43:10 AM
In an interview to the El Mundo magazine, Amaral said that Madeleine had been hidden on the beach and, when asked whether, by that, he meant buried, replied, we do not know.
Presumably a grudging (unacknowledged) nod to the fact that Harrison explicitly ruled out burial.
You do not rule out anything in an unsolved case because MM could have been hidden under rocks - there were countless on PDL beach/cliffs.
Homicide Disposal Datasets
A limited search has been conducted of datasets that contain body disposal data in homicide cases (CATCHEM, SCAS, FBI). Although this search was limited due to the time constraints placed on this reports delivery an inference can be gained from both the data sets and the authors own case work experience. I have also consulted with NPIA and FBI colleagues to benefit from their experiences.
The conclusion inferred is that beach burial is extremely rare. This should not surprise us as to dig on a beach is a high risk activity requiring expending time and energy when a more 'least effort" disposal is readily available, that is directly into the sea. Of those limited cases that were found to be a beach disposal the overwhelming majority were surface depositions with only one recorded concealment using rocks on top of a 2 year old child (CATCHEM Database)
You do not rule out anything in an unsolved case because MM could have been hidden under rocks - there were countless on PDL beach/cliffs.
Homicide Disposal Datasets
A limited search has been conducted of datasets that contain body disposal data in homicide cases (CATCHEM, SCAS, FBI). Although this search was limited due to the time constraints placed on this reports delivery an inference can be gained from both the data sets and the authors own case work experience. I have also consulted with NPIA and FBI colleagues to benefit from their experiences.
The conclusion inferred is that beach burial is extremely rare. This should not surprise us as to dig on a beach is a high risk activity requiring expending time and energy when a more 'least effort" disposal is readily available, that is directly into the sea. Of those limited cases that were found to be a beach disposal the overwhelming majority were surface depositions with only one recorded concealment using rocks on top of a 2 year old child (CATCHEM Database)
In conclusion there is no intelligence spe?ic to this case or generic datasets that support a scenario of beach burial. Additionally the digability study and coastal dynamics of the Praia Da Luz beach further limit this as a viable scenario.
Harrison ruled it out, and concluded his final report by opining that if Madeleine was dead, he found it most likely that her remains had been disposed of in the sea.
How Amaral mangled and misconstrued Harrison's conclusions as he did, heaven only knows.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 02, 2017, 12:01:42 PM
It cannot be ruled out as records show a 2 year old was concealed under rocks. There were countless rocks on that beach. When you search under every possible one then you can rule it out LOL.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on July 02, 2017, 12:02:48 PM
It cannot be ruled out as records show a 2 year old was concealed under rocks. There were countless rocks on that beach. When you search under every one then you can rule it out LOL.
You know better than Harrison?
You obviously think you do.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 02, 2017, 12:03:52 PM
In an interview to the El Mundo magazine, Amaral said that Madeleine had been hidden on the beach and, when asked whether, by that, he meant buried, replied, we do not know.
Presumably a grudging (unacknowledged) nod to the fact that Harrison explicitly ruled out burial.
So no contradiction between Amaral and Harrison then?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on July 03, 2017, 10:02:34 AM
If you cannot see anything wrong with Amarals false allegations about Dr. Payne for instance - and believe they were not meant to damage his character in the most appalling way possible - then what IYO were his intentions?
AFAIAC - if it waddles like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck - it definitely isn't a camel.
AIMHO
(must go out now)
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on July 03, 2017, 11:46:20 AM
I am of the opinion that whoever the tour operators at the OC were at the time - they or their representatives would have attended the monthly meetings mentioned and would be aware of the activities of a serial sexual predator in the area. It's just common sense.
If you cannot see anything wrong with Amarals false allegations about Dr. Payne for instance - and believe they were not meant to damage his character in the most appalling way possible - then what IYO were his intentions?
AFAIAC - if it waddles like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck - it definitely isn't a camel.
AIMHO
(must go out now)
Are you suggesting the Gaspers invented the story? Amaral only repeated what the police were told by two witnesses who chose to come forward.
Do you consider the conduct acceptable or do you put it down to typical male stupidity while relaxing on holiday when the vino is flowing? I hasten to add as a male that I found the observation somewhat sick so I can completely understand where Mrs Gasper was coming from.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 03, 2017, 11:51:39 AM
Are you suggesting the Gaspers invented the story? Amaral only repeated what the police were told by two witnesses who chose to come forward.
Do you consider the conduct acceptable or do you put it down to typical male stupidity while relaxing on holiday when the vino is flowing? I hasten to add as a male that I found the observation somewhat sick so I can completely understand where Mrs Gasper was coming from.
Seconded.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on July 03, 2017, 11:57:59 AM
Are you suggesting the Gaspers invented the story? Amaral only repeated what the police were told by two witnesses who chose to come forward.
Do you consider the conduct acceptable or do you put it down to typical male stupidity while relaxing on holiday when the vino is flowing? I hasten to add as a male that I found the observation somewhat sick.
Good grief!
Mr Gaspar's statement reads, almost, as a glowing character-reference for David Payne; while his wife's statement as we read it on line leaves room for considerable doubt that Mrs Gaspar actually said what is attributed to her.
Let me put it like this.
What woman, harbouring the suspicions about a man Mrs Gaspar's statement (as we read it on line) suggests she harboured about .... ......, would allow that man anywhere near hear daughter; let alone bath her?
I suggest, none!
Meanwhile Amaral couldn't even get right what the statement said. According to him, Mrs G wouldn't allow .... ...... anywhere near her daughter.
All that aside, what was observed, in another country a very long time before, was perfectly legal, even if regarded (by some) as in poor taste; utterly irrelevant to anything related to Madeleine's disappearance.
ETA: Amaral also said the Gaspars made a "joint statement"
Idiot (that's Amaral).
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on July 03, 2017, 11:58:57 AM
I see. So we are going to completely ignore the fact that The Gaspars themselves did not agree on anything much at all.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on July 03, 2017, 12:12:03 PM
Quote
I can describe Dave as a Caucasian male 1.78 m tall, and of a medium complexion. He had brown hair and used glasses/contact lenses depending on the circumstances.
I can say that Dave was a pleasant person. I do not remember him having any unusual characteristics.
During the holidays Dave never behaved in an inappropriate manner with Madeleine or with any of the other children. Dave was popular with the children and I took this to be because he was a close friend to the family.
I never distrusted Dave. After the holidays there was one occasion when we were with Kate and Gerry and Fiona and Dave were also present.
That was in a restaurant in Leicester in 2005. I do not remember the name of the restaurant.
We had a pleasant evening, just the three couples without the children.
I do not remember Dave having behaved inappropriately on this occasion. We have not spoken to Dave or Fiona since December 2005, only due to their being friends of Kate and Gerry, not for any other reason.
The last time I saw Kate, Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie was in March 2007 when they came to our house for the first birthday celebration of my daughter *****. On the morning of 4th May Katherine saw the news about Madeleine on television. We were very shocked and worried given that they were close friends.
It was during the days following the news of the abduction that we discovered that Fiona and David Payne were also with them in Portugal.
It was at this moment that Katherina showed concern at the gesture made by Dave in Majorca in 2005. Katherina remembered that when Dave made the gesture he was referring to Madeleine.
I only remember that Katherina saw the gesture at the time, I had forgotten the episode, it was never the subject of conversation.
At the time I did not feel the gesture was referring to Madeleine.
Aural Gaspar.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 03, 2017, 12:18:59 PM
Are you suggesting the Gaspers invented the story? Amaral only repeated what the police were told by two witnesses who chose to come forward.
Do you consider the conduct acceptable or do you put it down to typical male stupidity while relaxing on holiday when the vino is flowing? I hasten to add as a male that I found the observation somewhat sick so I can completely understand where Mrs Gasper was coming from.
Depends what they were talking about I can't see they were discussing paedophilia More likely breast feeding Mr Gasper did not agree with his wife
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on July 03, 2017, 12:27:49 PM
Are you suggesting the Gaspers invented the story? Amaral only repeated what the police were told by two witnesses who chose to come forward.
Do you consider the conduct acceptable or do you put it down to typical male stupidity while relaxing on holiday when the vino is flowing? I hasten to add as a male that I found the observation somewhat sick so I can completely understand where Mrs Gasper was coming from.
We haven't actually had sight of the Gasper statements though, have we? If you wish to go with the one Levy posted on the internet, that's fine. I prefer the real deal which the police hold.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on July 03, 2017, 12:37:29 PM
We haven't actually had sight of the Gasper statements though, have we? If you wish to go with the one Levy posted on the internet, that's fine. I prefer the real deal which the police hold.
God, not Levy again. And twice translated.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ferryman on July 03, 2017, 12:45:18 PM
We haven't actually had sight of the Gasper statements though, have we? If you wish to go with the one Levy posted on the internet, that's fine. I prefer the real deal which the police hold.
At the foot of Mrs Gaspar's statement is this:
Quote
Translation [PJ] done by C.R.F.E.
Note: Retroversion from the Portuguese translation
Not sure what that means?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2017, 08:29:24 AM
Amaral must know that the cadaver alerts have no evidential value .........we are not allowed to discuss why he uses them as though they do
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on July 04, 2017, 11:11:45 AM
Amaral must know that the cadaver alerts have no evidential value .........we are not allowed to discuss why he uses them as though they do
The words used by the expert was 'evidential reliabity' which clearly means that the evidence cannot be relied upon but nevertheless is strongly suggestive that cadaver odour was present. Add to that the fact that only property and belongings associated with the parents produced dog alerts and you have enough to create suspicion.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2017, 12:41:48 PM
The words used by the expert was 'evidential reliabity' which clearly means that the evidence cannot be relied upon but nevertheless is strongly suggestive that cadaver odour was present. Add to that the fact that only property and belongings associated with the parents produced dog ray's
and you have enough to create suspicion.
There was no strongly suggestive You must be mistaken More misinformation
The reason only the mccanns belonging So we're alerted to was because the dogs were repeatedly brought back
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on July 04, 2017, 01:24:01 PM
As for bringing the dog back, Grime explained how the inspections were carried out and why the dog was returned to an area of interest. Eddie was a remarkable dog, attempts to play down his many successes in solving crimes is the real misinformation.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2017, 02:23:15 PM
As for bringing the dog back, Grime explained how the inspections were carried out and why the dog was returned to an area of interest. Eddie was a remarkable dog, attempts to play down his many successes in solving crimes is the real misinformation.
you claimed strongly suggestive...grime never said that....that is misinformation
Eddie does not have many successes over his 5 years...more misinformation
Eddie was not called back to any cars in the car park....just the one with all the stickers on it
I have no problem with the dog being called back....but the alerts need to be seen for what they really are and that is of no evidentiasl value
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on July 04, 2017, 02:49:56 PM
you claimed strongly suggestive...grime never said that....that is misinformation
Eddie does not have many successes over his 5 years...more misinformation
Eddie was not called back to any cars in the car park....just the one with all the stickers on it
I have no problem with the dog being called back....but the alerts need to be seen for what they really are and that is of no evidentiasl value
As it presently stands the alerts are suggestive that cadaver contaminant was present but that will change when and if a cadaver is found. Amaral is correct to refer to the dog alerts but I do agree that he is wrong to infer that they are in any way proof that Maddie died in 5a.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2017, 03:21:36 PM
As it presently stands the alerts are suggestive that cadaver contaminant was present but that will change when and if a cadaver is found. Amaral is correct to refer to the dog alerts but I do agree that he is wrong to infer that they are in any way proof that Maddie died in 5a.
suggestive...not strongly suggestive as you originally posted.....and amaral is wrong to refer to them as evidence...never mind proof
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on July 04, 2017, 03:58:09 PM
suggestive...not strongly suggestive as you originally posted.....and amaral is wrong to refer to them as evidence...never mind proof
I disagree. The alerts occurred as part of a formal police investigation, they are indisputable fact and as such form part of the evidence in this case otherwise their existence would not have been recorded in the way they were within the files. You know very well that evidence and proof are two very different entities. Evidence is still evidence even though it has no evidential reliability.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2017, 04:01:37 PM
I disagree. The alerts occurred as part of a formal police investigation, they are indisputable fact and as such form part of the evidence in this case otherwise their existence would not have been recorded in the way they were within the files. You know very well that evidence and proof are two very different entities. Evidence is still evidence even though it has no evidential reliability.
Evidence that has no reliability is useless
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on July 04, 2017, 05:52:30 PM
I disagree. The alerts occurred as part of a formal police investigation, they are indisputable fact and as such form part of the evidence in this case otherwise their existence would not have been recorded in the way they were within the files. You know very well that evidence and proof are two very different entities. Evidence is still evidence even though it has no evidential reliability.
....Just as newspaper cut-outs are "indisputable facts" & form part of the evidence in the PJ files, having been written by respected journalists.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 04, 2017, 06:19:14 PM
as calpol is not a sedative it isnt really relevant apart from demonstrating another gap in amarals knowledge
There are times when I wonder whether you can be described as a supporter, in reality.
THE ARCHIVING REPORT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH AMARAL.
The newspaper pages are interesting. They point to Brian Healy and The Sun as the source of 'to help them sleep'. Then they describe the actions of Calpol.
Perhaps in your desire to Amaral-bash, you are missing the evidence. Simply trotting out the word 'Amaral' repetitively is moving us not one jot forward.
8((()*/
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2017, 06:58:27 PM
There are times when I wonder whether you can be described as a supporter, in reality.
THE ARCHIVING REPORT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH AMARAL.
The newspaper pages are interesting. They point to Brian Healy and The Sun as the source of 'to help them sleep'. Then they describe the actions of Calpol.
Perhaps in your desire to Amaral-bash, you are missing the evidence. Simply trotting out the word 'Amaral' repetitively is moving us not one jot forward.
8((()*/
calpol is not a sedative.....of course the archiving report had nothing to do with amaral...it said there was no evidence of any crime by the mccanns
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2017, 07:35:59 PM
It's encouraging to see that this forum has no official stance. Unlike other fora it can't be labelled as 'sceptic' or 'supporter'. The public in-fighting among the mods on here clearly demonstrates the forum's lack of bias.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on July 04, 2017, 08:29:46 PM
It's encouraging to see that this forum has no official stance. Unlike other fora it can't be labelled as 'sceptic' or 'supporter'. The public in-fighting among the mods on here clearly demonstrates the forum's lack of bias.
Too bloody true. Be sure of that.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on July 04, 2017, 09:19:45 PM
This Amaral interview would never be allowed on TV in this country. He it is posted on this forum.
No one forced you to watch the video.
That was your choice.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on July 05, 2017, 12:05:37 AM
Reminder: the thread topic is about Amaral and O Enigma ... if it doesn't interest please don't post.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2017, 08:24:25 AM
the video is plainly wrong... to accuse someone of criminal behaviour without proof is clearly libellous and im surprised you do not realise that to say he can prove maddie died in teh apartment when he cant is clearly misinfor,ation to claim that teh dogs alerted to a cadaver when it ahs not been proved is misinformation to say teh experts agree taht a cadaver had been in teh apartment is not true amd is misinformation to say teh children were given calpol to help tehm sleep when it has not been proved is misinfformation the video is an absolute disgrace
is amaral deliberately lying ...does he not understand the evidence ...or is there another expalnation...I cant see one and neither can anyone else
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on July 05, 2017, 09:04:41 AM
the video is plainly wrong... to accuse someome of criminal behaviour without proof is clearly libellous and im surprised you do not realise that to say he can prove maddie died in teh apartment when he cant is clearly misinfor,ation to claim that teh dogs alerted to a cadaver when it ahs not been proved is misinformation to say teh experts agree taht a cadaver had been in teh apartment is not true amd is misinformation to say teh children were given calpol to help tehm sleep when it has not been proved is misinfformation the video is an absolute disgrace
is amaral deliberately lying ...does he not understand the evidence ...or is there another expalnation...I cant see one and neither can anyone else
I have no problem with the word 'misinformation', it's disinformation I object to. You, to your credit, have accepted that he can't be accused of lying because it can't be proved. Others need to accept that also.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2017, 10:20:15 AM
I have no problem with the word 'misinformation', it's disinformation I object to. You, to your credit, have accepted that he can't be accused of lying because it can't be proved. Others need to accept that also.
So if we rule out lying we are left only with him not understanding the evidence Unless you can think of something else
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on July 05, 2017, 10:40:58 AM
I have no problem with the word 'misinformation', it's disinformation I object to. You, to your credit, have accepted that he can't be accused of lying because it can't be proved. Others need to accept that also.
So you think Amaral's description of a witness as a sexual deviant, with a fetish for bathing children, and whose only reason for going to 5A was to bathe the McCann children, cannot be described as Amaral disseminating 'disinformation' on a massive scale - even though it is grossly libelous and can be proved to be untrue via the PJ files.
Good grief.
What does qualify as 'disinformation' IYO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2017, 10:44:37 AM
So you think Amaral's description of a witness as a sexual deviant, with a fetish for bathing children, and whose only reason for going to 5A was to bathe the McCann children, cannot be described as Amaral disseminating 'disinformation' on a massive scale - even though it is grossly libelous and can be proved to be untrue via the PJ files.
Good grief.
What does qualify as 'disinformation' IYO.
When does he say 'sexual deviant' ?
Speaking personally, why would you let someone else wash your own children, when you can do it yourself ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2017, 11:38:35 AM
So you think Amaral's description of a witness as a sexual deviant, with a fetish for bathing children, and whose only reason for going to 5A was to bathe the McCann children, cannot be described as Amaral disseminating 'disinformation' on a massive scale - even though it is grossly libelous and can be proved to be untrue via the PJ files.
Good grief.
What does qualify as 'disinformation' IYO.
Can you prove that Amaral knows what he says is untrue? Can you prove that he is saying it with the deliberate intention of deceiving people?
If you can, then do so. If you can't then you can't accuse him of disinformation.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2017, 11:44:58 AM
Do you have any concerns about Amaral accusing a named person of having a fetish for bathing children ?
I believe you have children Erngath.
Did you let them be washed by another adult ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Erngath on July 05, 2017, 12:23:46 PM
I asked G Unit if she had any concerns about Amarals labelling, implying.stating that one of the witnesses had a fetish for bathing children and actually naming said person.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on July 05, 2017, 12:36:05 PM
Do you have any concerns about Amaral accusing a named person of having a fetish for bathing children ?
If he made similar comments about me or a member of my family I would first check the translation (which has a disclaimer). I would then pursue him and the TV station for a retraction. It remains to be seen if those accused react.
I haven't seen evidence that the person involved had a fetish for bathing children, but I have seen evidence that his behaviour caused another person to be concerned about him.
I don't quite see why it should concern me, though. I would need to know the person named very well before I became concerned on their behalf.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2017, 12:41:53 PM
Oh yes Stephen I am well aware that you believe me to be a hypocrite. I would not discuss the.bathing of Amarals children nor the bathing of the McCann children nor do I intend doing so. I asked G Unit if she had any concerns about Amarals labelling, implying.stating that one of the witnesses had a fetish for bathing children and actually naming said person.
Yet you are discussing it by referring to Amaral, and his views on the case.
The irony being, that any guests who have no knowledge of Amaral's claims, might look up the files and/or watch the video with translation.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on July 05, 2017, 12:50:10 PM
Oh yes Stephen I am well aware that you believe me to be a hypocrite. I would not discuss the.bathing of Amarals children nor the bathing of the McCann children nor do I intend doing so. I asked G Unit if she had any concerns about Amarals labelling, implying.stating that one of the witnesses had a fetish for bathing children and actually naming said person.
The first question I would ask is whether it is normal or even acceptable practice for a grown male to bathe young children belonging to friends? The next question is what evidence does Amaral rely upon in order to make the claim he does?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 05, 2017, 01:05:32 PM
The first question I would ask is whether it is normal or even acceptable practice for a grown male to bathe young children belonging to friends? The next question is what evidence does Amaral rely upon in order to make the claim he does?
I think we should have an answer to the second question first
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
The second question wouldn't be an issue, but for the first.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on July 05, 2017, 01:43:08 PM
The source of the accusations clearly did not have any issues, before or after witnessing the alleged gesture, with her own husband overseeing the bathing of other people's children so there was nothing abnormal about that practice in her eyes.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2017, 01:47:10 PM
The source of the accusations clearly did not have any issues, before or after witnessing the alleged gesture, with her own husband overseeing the bathing of other people's children so there was nothing abnormal about that practice in her eyes.
That, like many things in this case, is a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on July 05, 2017, 01:56:15 PM
That, like many things in this case, is a matter of opinion.
It's borne out by the statements. There is no expression of the group bathing being an abnormal practice that either parent was previously unhappy about participating in. They continued to do so in spite of what they allegedly witnessed.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2017, 02:01:28 PM
It's borne out by the statements. There is no expression of the group bathing being an abnormal practice that either parent was previously unhappy about participating in. They continued to do so in spite of what they allegedly witnessed.
I presume you can provide citations for all of this, and in reference to Mrs. Gasper's comments.
I certainly don't view washing other peoples children as normal practice.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on July 05, 2017, 02:16:20 PM
I presume you can provide citations for all of this, and in reference to Mrs. Gasper's comments.
I certainly don't view washing other peoples children as normal practice.
Your views of the practice are irrelevant. It is the opinion of the accuser which is pertinent. The fathers in the group on the Majorca holiday dealt with the little ones' bath.time & there must have been more than one adult involved, given the number of children. The accuser didn't appear to have an issue with GM being involved.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2017, 02:19:43 PM
Your views of the practice are irrelevant. It is the opinion of the accuser which is pertinent. The fathers in the group on the Majorca holiday dealt with the little ones' bath.time & there must have been more than one adult involved, given the number of children. The accuser didn't appear to have an issue with GM being involved.
Amaral expressed his view.
That you and others wouldn't like it , is rather obvious.
I have expressed mine.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on July 05, 2017, 02:31:46 PM
Exactly what is the relevance to Madeleine McCann's disappearance from Praia da Luz while on holiday, to the holiday spent in Majorca?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on July 05, 2017, 02:39:29 PM
Exactly what is the relevance to Madeleine McCann's disappearance from Praia da Luz while on holiday, to the holiday spent in Majorca?
The video is titled O Enigma. The person being discussed is described by Amaral as the enigma in or of the case. So the discussion is relevant to the thread.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on July 05, 2017, 02:44:12 PM
Sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. The accuser had no problem with the practice of fathers dealing with bath time prior to allegedly witnessing the gesture. IMO she did not view the activity as abnormal, nor did she remove her own child from the situation. She had no problem with her own husband bathing the children of other parents after the alleged incident. Whether or not you or I approve of what the group did is irrelevant. They were good friends. Most people don't have a problem with their in-laws bathing their children, if required, or leaving them with friends who act as babysitters.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on July 05, 2017, 03:10:03 PM
Sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. The accuser had no problem with the practice of fathers dealing with bath time prior to allegedly witnessing the gesture. IMO she did not view the activity as abnormal, nor did she remove her own child from the situation. She had no problem with her own husband bathing the children of other parents after the alleged incident. Whether or not you or I approve of what the group did is irrelevant. They were good friends. Most people don't have a problem with their in-laws bathing their children, if required, or leaving them with friends who act as babysitters.
The accuser never said whether she was happy with the arrangement or not. You have chosen to interpret her lack of comment as meaning she approved, but it can be interpreted differently. She may have found it strange but went along with a group decision rather than cause trouble.
The group were not good friends. The Gaspers were friends with the McCanns, but not the others;
I did not know these two families before we went on holidays together. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/Gaspar.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on July 05, 2017, 03:44:04 PM
The video is titled O Enigma. The person being discussed is described by Amaral as the enigma in or of the case. So the discussion is relevant to the thread.
We cannot discuss the person to whom you refer in the terms Amaral uses in O Enigma without defaming that person either in trying to defend him or to heap even more unsubstantiated and evil rubbish on his head.
This is a man who has really gone out of his way to trash the reputations of both parents of a missing child in any which way he can. Not content with that he vilifies an innocent man on the say so of an attention seeking anonymous letter writer whose 'practice' in the field matches somewhat a level of incompetence with which he would be no doubt familiar.
O Enigma is of use only as an exemplar ... and as such is truly a vehicle to be observed with wonder. How much more depraved does it all have to become before the penny finally drops? ... ten years is obviously not long enough for some.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on July 05, 2017, 03:53:30 PM
We cannot discuss the person to whom you refer in the terms Amaral uses in O Enigma without defaming that person either in trying to defend him or to heap even more unsubstantiated and evil rubbish on his head.
This is a man who has really gone out of his way to trash the reputations of both parents of a missing child in any which way he can. Not content with that he vilifies an innocent man on the say so of an attention seeking anonymous letter writer whose 'practice' in the field matches somewhat a level of incompetence with which he would be no doubt familiar.
O Enigma is of use only as an exemplar ... and as such is truly a vehicle to be observed with wonder. How much more depraved does it all have to become before the penny finally drops? ... ten years is obviously not long enough for some.
No bias there, I'm glad to see. No siree @)(++(*
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on July 05, 2017, 04:02:10 PM
The source of the accusations clearly did not have any issues, before or after witnessing the alleged gesture, with her own husband overseeing the bathing of other people's children so there was nothing abnormal about that practice in her eyes.
Still more pertinent (at least for me!) she (apparently) had no problem with the man who was the subject of her accusations and insinuations bathing her own children.
For the full extent of the (ostensible) accusation, read the statement.
I just don't believe it.
That is, I don't believe that anyone harbouring the suspicions Mrs G's statement (as we read it!) apparently harboured would allow the man who was, apparently, the object of her suspicions anywhere near her (or his!) daughter.
What I suspect is neither DP nor Mrs Gaspar, but the statement attributed to Mrs Gaspar as we read it on-line.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on July 05, 2017, 05:20:58 PM
Still more pertinent (at least for me!) she (apparently) had no problem with the man who was the subject of her accusations and insinuations bathing her own children.
For the full extent of the (ostensible) accusation, read the statement.
I just don't believe it.
That is, I don't believe that anyone harbouring the suspicions Mrs G's statement (as we read it!) apparently harboured would allow the man who was, apparently, the object of her suspicions anywhere near her (or his!) daughter.
What I suspect is neither DP nor Mrs Gaspar, but the statement attributed to Mrs Gaspar as we read it on-line.
What you suspect ?
Mmm.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on July 05, 2017, 05:47:26 PM
As in the unsigned, final revised translation which is online. What was the nature of the revision?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on July 05, 2017, 06:40:32 PM
IMO Amaral could cite the evidence from statements in the files as "proof" there were grounds for him reproducing the allegations under his licence of freedom of expression. "O Enigma" is not the only production in which he expresses the (libellous) remarks. It may have been interesting if Dr P had sued first, for a lesser amount of damages, to see how the Portuguese judge & possibly the Appeal Courts ruled in that case.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on July 05, 2017, 06:41:01 PM
Is anyone going to court over it ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 05, 2017, 06:48:43 PM
Amaral says that the alert proves Maddie died in the apartment Misrepresentation Fact not opinion
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Mr Gray on July 07, 2017, 09:31:06 PM
Amaral says the children were sedated with calpol Misrepresentation Fact not opinion
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2017, 11:30:45 PM
The interviewer asked Amaral to explain in detail what his theory was for the disposal of Madeleine's body. Amaral denied having one despite having just watched himself on video outlining his latest thesis.
So it seems fine to denigrate people with the foulest possible accusations while refusing to explain how they achieved the impossible.
We say ... "A big boy done it and ran away". Which in Amaral's world seems to have worked out very well indeed as he continues with with the smear campaign while denying it. You really could not make it up.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 07:52:58 AM
He implied that could have happened as the dog alerted in the garden below the balcony. If I recall he suggested that Madeleine could have pursued her father after hearing him speaking outside.
Am I right in thinking that garden into which she could have fallen is still part of apartment 5A property? She would still be contained within the boundary wall?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 08:20:46 AM
Gerry was in the tapas restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting.
Jane saw a man carrying a child and the Smiths saw a man carrying a child.
PJ Inspector Joao Carlos ruled out 'woke and wandered'.
That'll do.
Where is this recorded "PJ Inspector Joao Carlos ruled out 'woke and wandered'"? I didn't see it in the file called http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_CARLOS.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 08:32:37 AM
Just so and what's more both Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins agree. According to Amaral, Tanner went up the footpath behind the apartments and entered her apartment using the patio door. He claims it was from her front corridor that she saw a man carrying a child, a man identified by Redwood as probably being an innocent tourist. Jez Wilkins later recalled seeing a woman dressed in purple standing there at 5d smoking.
She drew a diagram of the situation and it is nothing like what you describe. Is Amaral putting words into the witness' mouth?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 09:07:56 AM
Mark was involved with the searches but one explanation is his wife was a business partner of Bridget O'Donnell (wife of Jez) who knew of the McCanns child checking arrangements on the Wednesday night. http://portugalresident.com/making-property-purchase-an-enjoyable-experience
Good point "How did he know the door was open when everyone else thought it was locked?"
‘ Praia da Luz resident Mark McCarrick said the girl might have simply walked out of her room. “The parents left the door ajar so they could keep going over and looking at her.” this is the first and last mention of Mark McCarrick in the UK press – so how did he know the door was open when everyone else was still claiming it was locked?" http://fakeologist.com/blog/2013/10/20/madeleine-mccann-a-european-jon-benet-ramsey/#ixzz4sM5yyGUI
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 09:13:51 AM
Absolutely, I have experienced so-called consular assistance in Spain in 2003 and it can in no way be compared to what occurred in Praia da Luz in 2007. The British police were told to shadow the McCanns and be there every time they had contact with the PJ. It isn't rocket science to work out why,
It would have made it a bit more difficult for the PJ to plant evidence against the McCanns. Is that what you mean?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 09:34:16 AM
Another of Amaral's facts is that JT managed to pass two people without either of them seeing her. JW said;
I can affirm that it was a quiet street and it was very unlikely that someone could have passed by be in this way http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Once again, this fact has been hotly discussed. Various excuses and explanations have been offered, but the fact remains that JT wasn't seen by either of the men. One of them found that very unlikely.
It isn't Jane's fault that no one say they saw her.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2017, 10:22:38 AM
I too would be 'wondering why' - if it was true that JT had had to virtually move sideways and squeeze around Gerry and Jez, both of whom Amaral has standing in the middle of the pavement and directly in JT's path in his first video. If you think that is a fair depiction of what happened, then I am amazed G.
IMO That blatant and preposterous distortion of the facts would be risible if it were not so dishonest.
It seems to me that Gerry and Jez's position was deliberately changed to ensure that people watching the video - and who didn't know any better - could come to no other conclusion than JT must have lied about seeing them talking in the street. What other reason could there be?
Disgraceful.
AIMHO
So do you find Gerry changing his talk with Jez to a totally different side of the street despite two other witnesses claiming otherwise disgraceful too ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2017, 03:33:02 PM
I think Amaral was pretty close to Wilkins' cross.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 11, 2017, 06:19:31 PM
The tapas bar was on his apartment side. Jez had to cross the road to get back to his apartment. Gerry did not have to cross the road. It could explain not seeing Tannerman crossing and Jane walking through you LOL.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 07:14:58 PM
Jane Tanner saw a man carrying a barefoot child in his arms crossing the road ahead of her. The child was wearing pyjamas.
She also saw Gerry and Jez in conversation ... neither of whom saw her ... neither did they see the man crossing the road behind them.
In my opinion there was a chain of evidence here with Jane Tanner at the centre. Might that be why she had to be discredited ... who knows? but I'm sure somebody does.
Jane's statement confirms Jeremy's statement
Jane's statement confirms Gerry's statement.
The fact that she saw the chance encounter which she could not have known about otherwise, confirms her statement
In my opinion it is immaterial what the men failed to see. What is of importance is what Jane did see.
The stranger she witnessed carrying a child is a link in the chain of evidence. I am of the opinion that as important as maintaining the search for Madeleine, was finding the man carrying the child who might have been Madeleine, to eliminate him from the inquiry ... or if that failed, to throw more resources at finding him and the child.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2017, 07:19:34 PM
Jane Tanner saw a man carrying a barefoot child in his arms crossing the road ahead of her. The child was wearing pyjamas.
She also saw Gerry and Jez in conversation ... neither of whom saw her ... neither did they see the man crossing the road behind them.
In my opinion there was a chain of evidence here with Jane Tanner at the centre. Might that be why she had to be discredited ... who knows? but I'm sure somebody does.
Jane's statement confirms Jeremy's statement
Jane's statement confirms Gerry's statement.
The fact that she saw the chance encounter which she could not have known about otherwise, confirms her statement
In my opinion it is immaterial what the men failed to see. What is of importance is what Jane did see.
The stranger she witnessed carrying a child is a link in the chain of evidence. I am of the opinion that as important as maintaining the search for Madeleine, was finding the man carrying the child who might have been Madeleine, to eliminate him from the inquiry ... or if that failed, to throw more resources at finding him and the child.
Sounds like clutching at an ever decreasing number of straws to me.
Haven't SY done this already ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 11, 2017, 07:28:45 PM
It has been established that Jane Tanner did not see an abductor.
Jane Tanner only mentioned this after Maddie disappeared- she didn't shout it out at the time. why not? Kate said she knew right away that Maddie was abducted, but didn't say right away. What is wrong with these people?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 08:45:31 PM
It has been established that Jane Tanner did not see an abductor.
Jane Tanner only mentioned this after Maddie disappeared- she didn't shout it out at the time. why not? Kate said she knew right away that Maddie was abducted, but didn't say right away. What is wrong with these people?
If you see a man walking with a child in his hand (holding hands) do you yell out "Child abductor! Help Help Help!"?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 08:50:42 PM
Sounds like clutching at an ever decreasing number of straws to me.
Haven't SY done this already ?
Sometimes you support SY and other times you don't. I've come to understand SY want us to put the focus on Smathman not Tannerman, but no one can really do that for they have not convinced us.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 11, 2017, 08:59:33 PM
If you see a man walking with a child in his hand (holding hands) do you yell out "Child abductor! Help Help Help!"?
No, you wouldn't Robbie. a friend shouts her daughter has been 'taken' why didn't Jane say oh I think I know which way an abductor was heading... but they all split up in different directions? looking under beds and such I mean come on..
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 09:31:40 PM
No, you wouldn't Robbie. a friend shouts her daughter has been 'taken' why didn't Jane say oh I think I know which way an abductor was heading... but they all split up in different directions? looking under beds and such I mean come on..
They had done that before Jane was aware. She was in her apartment. I'm sure she said in what direction the man was walking, it is impossible to describe what she saw otherwise.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 09:37:56 PM
It has been established that Jane Tanner did not see an abductor.
Jane Tanner only mentioned this after Maddie disappeared- she didn't shout it out at the time. why not? Kate said she knew right away that Maddie was abducted, but didn't say right away. What is wrong with these people?
Absolutely correct.
Jane Tanner saw what she thought was a father taking his child home.
She saw him before anyone was aware that Madeleine was missing ... so why on earth would she have started shouting "abductor"?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 09:39:30 PM
And neither did Jane but at least she mentioned it later. But she didn't know if it was important then or even now, but I think someone did, for immediately there are those trying to downplay what she actually saw, That to me is the clue more so than what she can remember about what she saw.
Jane "I saw someone" Person B "No you didn't, you weren't in the right place" Person C "You weren't there, if you were I would have seen you"
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on September 11, 2017, 10:06:33 PM
And neither did Jane but at least she mentioned it later. But she didn't know if it was important then or even now, but I think someone did, for immediately there are those trying to downplay what she actually saw, That to me is the clue more so than what she can remember about what she saw.
Why do you suppose Redwood downplayed it then.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2017, 10:19:38 PM
Jane Tanner saw a man carrying a barefoot child in his arms crossing the road ahead of her. The child was wearing pyjamas.
She also saw Gerry and Jez in conversation ... neither of whom saw her ... neither did they see the man crossing the road behind them.
In my opinion there was a chain of evidence here with Jane Tanner at the centre. Might that be why she had to be discredited ... who knows? but I'm sure somebody does.
Jane's statement confirms Jeremy's statement
Jane's statement confirms Gerry's statement.
The fact that she saw the chance encounter which she could not have known about otherwise, confirms her statement
In my opinion it is immaterial what the men failed to see. What is of importance is what Jane did see.
The stranger she witnessed carrying a child is a link in the chain of evidence. I am of the opinion that as important as maintaining the search for Madeleine, was finding the man carrying the child who might have been Madeleine, to eliminate him from the inquiry ... or if that failed, to throw more resources at finding him and the child.
Jane Tanner reckoned she saw Jeremy Wilkins and Gerry McCann on the west side of the street. Gerry McCann reckoned he and Jeremy Wilkins were on the east side of the street. Was that ever reconciled ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 10:21:19 PM
Why do you think Amaral didn't track down "innocentdad" years before Redwood appeared on the scene?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2017, 10:22:23 PM
Jane Tanner definitely spoke to the GNR, because Silvia Batista translated for her;
At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Nelson da Costa confirms that Jane spoke to him. Jane also claims to have spoken to the PJ, but that isn't confirmed. According to Vitor Martins he spoke only with Gerry McCann, who told him what Jane had seen. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm#p15p3862
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 10:29:30 PM
Jane Tanner reckoned she saw Jeremy Wilkins and Gerry McCann on the west side of the street. Gerry McCann reckoned he and Jeremy Wilkins were on the east side of the street. Was that ever reconciled ?
Does it matter? The main player here is Jane Tanner and who she saw and what she witnessed. The other two saw nothing and witnessed nothing.
In my opinion what she saw and what she witnessed are of more value to an understanding of events than where Madeleine's father was standing in the street.
What value is there to the investigation in knowledge of the precise position of either man in conversation on the street? Isn't the value in knowledge of the mobile man with the child at the junction?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 10:33:56 PM
Why do you think Amaral didn't track down "innocentdad" years before Redwood appeared on the scene?
The reasoning is different. One is saying Jane was correct she saw someone that the others didn't. Whereas Amaral seems to imply Jane is making the whole thing up. That is quite different.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 10:38:50 PM
Does it matter? The main player here is Jane Tanner and who she saw and what she witnessed. The other two saw nothing and witnessed nothing.
In my opinion what she saw and what she witnessed are of more value to an understanding of events of where Madeleine's father was standing in the street.
What value is there to the investigation in knowledge of the precise position of either man in conversation on the street? Isn't the value in knowledge of the mobile man with the child at the junction?
But GA was using one part of her testimony against the other. If she can't remember where the guys were how reliable is she about the man? But then he is in two minds for he uses her unreliable sighting to help identify Robert Murat. Maybe if she had "identified" Murat fully she would have been given priority.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2017, 10:39:39 PM
Does it matter? The main player here is Jane Tanner and who she saw and what she witnessed. The other two saw nothing and witnessed nothing.
In my opinion what she saw and what she witnessed are of more value to an understanding of events than where Madeleine's father was standing in the street.
What value is there to the investigation in knowledge of the precise position of either man in conversation on the street? Isn't the value in knowledge of the mobile man with the child at the junction?
I would say it calls into question reliablity. On one issue she remembered it incorrectly as stated by one of the protagonists later. Why should one assume the other recollection is correct?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2017, 10:43:22 PM
Why do you think Amaral didn't track down "innocentdad" years before Redwood appeared on the scene?
How? I don't think it's ever been claimed that he contacted the PJ.
The PJ didn't have the time to interview all the holidaymakers before they left. Operation Task took on the job of contacting all the UK people present in Luz at the time of the disappearance. Questionnaires were completed by 559 of them. Whether Crechedad was among them we don't know. Neither do we know if all the questionnaires were sent to the PJ. Nor do we know when Crechedad contacted the UK police. http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 10:44:22 PM
The reasoning is different. One is saying Jane was correct she saw someone that the others didn't. Whereas Amaral seems to imply Jane is making the whole thing up. That is quite different.
... and therein lies one enigma, Robitty.
One investigated and found a man who was walking home carrying his child. The fact he was findable several years down the line makes one wonder why the original investigation failed that elementary diligence.
The other enigma was, as you say the rubbishing of Jane Tanner's eyewitness evidence.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 10:48:56 PM
But GA was using one part of her testimony against the other. If she can't remember where the guys were how reliable is she about the man? But then he is in two minds for he uses her unreliable sighting to help identify Robert Murat. Maybe if she had "identified" Murat fully she would have been given priority.
She had no doubt at all about where they were standing ~ the same position Jeremy Wilkins indicated ~ and where she was. Gerry McCann thought they were elsewhere.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 10:56:27 PM
I would say it calls into question reliablity. On one issue she remembered it incorrectly as stated by one of the protagonists later. Why should one assume the other recollection is correct?
Jane Tanner never deviated from what she saw ... she is the eye witness and no-one else. Her recollection of events is no doubted etched in her brain. It isn't every day one witness a man carrying a child away from the direction of premises from where it was later discovered a child had vanished.
I think that would make a lasting impression.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 11:00:06 PM
How? I don't think it's ever been claimed that he contacted the PJ.
The PJ didn't have the time to interview all the holidaymakers before they left. Operation Task took on the job of contacting all the UK people present in Luz at the time of the disappearance. Questionnaires were completed by 559 of them. Whether Crechedad was among them we don't know. Neither do we know if all the questionnaires were sent to the PJ. Nor do we know when Crechedad contacted the UK police. http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf
In other words ... no-one in the Portuguese investigation was curious about who the man carrying a child might be.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 11, 2017, 11:06:29 PM
The innocent dad came forward in 2007 to say he was the person seen carrying a child in Portugal at the time the three-year-old vanished.
The unnamed dad – spotted in the Praia da Luz resort by McCann family friend Jane Tanner at 9.15pm – was among a number of British witnesses who completed questionnaires for Leicestershire police six years ago.
He is understood to have provided a detailed description of his movements on the night, including the fact he had picked up his own two-year-old daughter from a crèche close to where Madeleine vanished.
A source said: “He had been clear then that he had picked her up at around the time of the sighting but for whatever reason he was not eliminated as a suspect. The fact the details of the prime suspect have been known all along doesn’t look good.”
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2017, 11:08:26 PM
Jane Tanner never deviated from what she saw ... she is the eye witness and no-one else. Her recollection of events is no doubted etched in her brain. It isn't every day one witness a man carrying a child away from the direction of premises from where it was later discovered a child had vanished.
I think that would make a lasting impression.
Lasting maybe but proven to be inaccurate.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 11:12:06 PM
I do not believe there is any evidence of any inaccuracy either in recollection or description as far as Jane Tanner's eye witness account is concerned.
If you know of any, please cite it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 11:13:37 PM
One investigated and found a man who was walking home carrying his child. The fact he was findable several years down the line makes one wonder why the original investigation failed that elementary diligence.
The other enigma was, as you say the rubbishing of Jane Tanner's eyewitness evidence.
I would also question whether crechedad saw Jane that night. We are talking about a few seconds it took to cross the intersection. Was he at that intersection, at what time was that, and did he see anyone on the side street?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2017, 11:25:14 PM
I would also question whether crechedad saw Jane that night.
If he was an abductor ... absolutely ... he would have been alert and missed nothing.
If he was a father wending his way homeward ... mibees aye ... mibees naw. For him looking downhill, figures would have been silhouetted against the light from the tapas area ... but parked vehicles might have blocked his view. It was chilly ... so he would have been hurrying and Jane's position might have been beyond his peripheral vision .. so I would agree with you there.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 11, 2017, 11:51:01 PM
I do not believe there is any evidence of any inaccuracy either in recollection or description as far as Jane Tanner's eye witness account is concerned.
If you know of any, please cite it.
Jez was adamant Jane didn't pass him and he was adamant where he was. Jez was facing the side gate so Jane had to pass within feet of his eyeline. He saw Jane dressed in purple when he first ventured out at around 20:30. That is the only time the witness saw Jane that night.
Had Jane turned left onto the path as I believe she could have seen both men and a man crossing the top of the road without any being aware of her. Elementary. There were two routes back so of course the other route is a possibility!
Two witnesses did not see her pass them on a quiet deserted street. That is the important fact that cannot be swept under the carpet. Look at the attempted reconstruction fiasco - you were here Gerry - No I was across the road. What an utter shambles! Do a reconstruction and see the reaction.
Patsy is cleared - one more carrier to go.
"He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 11, 2017, 11:53:20 PM
If he was an abductor ... absolutely ... he would have been alert and missed nothing.
If he was a father wending his way homeward ... mibees aye ... mibees naw. For him looking downhill, figures would have been silhouetted against the light from the tapas area ... but parked vehicles might have blocked his view. It was chilly ... so he would have been hurrying and Jane's position might have been beyond his peripheral vision .. so I would agree with you there.
If he was the abductor - well would we be listening to what he says? He wouldn't admit to being there at that time. I wouldn't so I assume he wouldn't. If he was just a dad passing by - the question still remains did he see Jane looking at him?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 12, 2017, 12:03:35 AM
Jez was adamant Jane didn't pass him and he was adamant where he was. Jez was facing the side gate so Jane had to pass within feet of his eyeline. He saw Jane dressed in purple when he first ventured out at around 20:30. That is the only time the witness saw Jane that night.
Had Jane turned left onto the path as I believe she could have seen both men and a man crossing the top of the road without any being aware of her. Elementary. There were two routes back so of course the other route is a possibility!
Two witnesses did not see her pass them on a quiet deserted street. That is the important fact that cannot be swept under the carpet. Look at the attempted reconstruction fiasco - you were here Gerry - No I was across the road. What an utter shambles! Do a reconstruction and see the reaction.
Patsy is cleared - one more carrier to go.
"He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
If Jane had turned left into the alleyway, she would not have been able to see anyone at the top of RFGdM as GM & JW would have blocked her line of sight. When JW saw the lady in purple it was still daylight. When he was speaking to GM it was dark. He may not have seen Jane coming from the Tapas Bar due to parked cars & he may have been looking at his child when Jane passed behind GM. Quite why it is still necessary to dispute that Jane did see a man with a child where & when she stated is beyond me.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 12:06:47 AM
If he was the abductor - well would we be listening to what he says? He wouldn't admit to being there at that time. I wouldn't so I assume he wouldn't. If he was just a dad passing by - the question still remains did he see Jane looking at him?
SY would have asked him that, I presume.
But in my opinion, after a check for traffic he would start crossing immediately and Jane would have been outwith his peripheral vision. Did she not say his head was down and she did not see his face? What she did see was in profile. So he was not looking downhill towards her.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 12:14:18 AM
Jez was adamant Jane didn't pass him and he was adamant where he was. Jez was facing the side gate so Jane had to pass within feet of his eyeline. He saw Jane dressed in purple when he first ventured out at around 20:30. That is the only time the witness saw Jane that night.
Had Jane turned left onto the path as I believe she could have seen both men and a man crossing the top of the road without any being aware of her. Elementary. There were two routes back so of course the other route is a possibility!
Two witnesses did not see her pass them on a quiet deserted street. That is the important fact that cannot be swept under the carpet. Look at the attempted reconstruction fiasco - you were here Gerry - No I was across the road. What an utter shambles! Do a reconstruction and see the reaction.
Patsy is cleared - one more carrier to go.
"He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
How do you converse with an individual on a one to one basis when you meet at dusk. Do you make eye contact while you are speaking or are you gazing all around taking everything in while ignoring the person with whom you are interacting? If the latter I think you would be acting rudely.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 12, 2017, 12:26:37 AM
But in my opinion, after a check for traffic he would start crossing immediately and Jane would have been outwith his peripheral vision. Did she not say his head was down and she did not see his face? What she did see was in profile. So he was not looking downhill towards her.
You never know who looked first or later. Jane said the whole episode was over in few seconds.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 12, 2017, 12:29:18 AM
Jez was adamant Jane didn't pass him and he was adamant where he was. Jez was facing the side gate so Jane had to pass within feet of his eyeline. He saw Jane dressed in purple when he first ventured out at around 20:30. That is the only time the witness saw Jane that night.
Had Jane turned left onto the path as I believe she could have seen both men and a man crossing the top of the road without any being aware of her. Elementary. There were two routes back so of course the other route is a possibility!
Two witnesses did not see her pass them on a quiet deserted street. That is the important fact that cannot be swept under the carpet. Look at the attempted reconstruction fiasco - you were here Gerry - No I was across the road. What an utter shambles! Do a reconstruction and see the reaction.
Patsy is cleared - one more carrier to go.
"He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
two people with different accounts, can they both be right or is one confused? I think that is the question.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2017, 01:13:57 AM
If Jane had turned left into the alleyway, she would not have been able to see anyone at the top of RFGdM as GM & JW would have blocked her line of sight. When JW saw the lady in purple it was still daylight. When he was speaking to GM it was dark. He may not have seen Jane coming from the Tapas Bar due to parked cars & he may have been looking at his child when Jane passed behind GM. Quite why it is still necessary to dispute that Jane did see a man with a child where & when she stated is beyond me.
This witness statement differs from Jane. Even at the beginning, things were not adding up! Seeing a man walking past in the direction to the road that leads to Baptista supermarket is at the back of the apartment where the middle path leads to. You could see the man crossing the car park entrance if coming from that direction.
At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child. This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 12, 2017, 01:21:16 AM
This witness statement differs from Jane. Even at the beginning, things were not adding up! Seeing a man walking past in the direction to the road that leads to Baptista supermarket is at the back of the apartment where the middle path leads to. You could see the man crossing the car park entrance if coming from that direction.
At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child. This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Mrs Batista was very confused IMO. I get the impression she thought Jane was standing at the front door to her apartment (smoking a cigarette as Amaral believes) looking out onto the car park when she witnessed Tannerman heading towards the supermarket rather than the front of Block 6.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2017, 01:21:49 AM
How do you converse with an individual on a one to one basis when you meet at dusk. Do you make eye contact while you are speaking or are you gazing all around taking everything in while ignoring the person with whom you are interacting? If the latter I think you would be acting rudely.
Jez turn deaf aswell as blind did he? He had a pram and was not aware of his surroundings on a road LOL. We have his statement of being adamant Jane was not seen. He spotted Jane in purple earlier hanging outside the apartments like Jenny Murat did.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 12, 2017, 01:28:22 AM
This witness statement differs from Jane. Even at the beginning, things were not adding up! Seeing a man walking past in the direction to the road that leads to Baptista supermarket is at the back of the apartment where the middle path leads to. You could see the man crossing the car park entrance if coming from that direction.
At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child. This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
Where are the notes the PJ or the GNR took of this incident, the translation done by Silvia? Covering this bit "At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated"
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2017, 01:32:55 AM
Mrs Batista was very confused IMO. I get the impression she thought Jane was standing at the front door to her apartment (smoking a cigarette as Amaral believes) looking out onto the car park when she witnessed Tannerman heading towards the supermarket rather than the front of Block 6.
Amaral believes Jane took the path route back and avoided the men which means at the time crecheman said he passed she would have seen him crossing the car park entrance from the back of the apartments NOT the front.
That could explain how Jane saw crecheman and the other men (Gerry/Jez) didn't see her.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 01:46:25 AM
You never know who looked first or later. Jane said the whole episode was over in few seconds.
If he had been looking at her ... she would have seen his face and would probably not have been able to give such a good description of his hair side and back.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 01:53:46 AM
Mrs Batista was very confused IMO. I get the impression she thought Jane was standing at the front door to her apartment (smoking a cigarette as Amaral believes) looking out onto the car park when she witnessed Tannerman heading towards the supermarket rather than the front of Block 6.
Sounds a bit of a mix max. From Jane's position she had a clear line of sight to where the man and child were.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 12, 2017, 01:58:57 AM
Glad to agree with you. Amaral identified the spot that Jez had drawn on his map and also the spot that Jane very definitely identified in the video where she argued with Gerry. Gerry was remembering incorrectly.
Maybe he started to cross to speak to Jez when a vehicle appeared and they retired back to the western kerb and pavement and the only part that stuck in Gerrys mind was crossing and a kerb ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 12, 2017, 02:03:33 AM
Amaral believes Jane took the path route back and avoided the men which means at the time crecheman said he passed she would have seen him crossing the car park entrance from the back of the apartments NOT the front.
That could explain how Jane saw crecheman and the other men (Gerry/Jez) didn't see her.
"Amaral believes" - yep, that about says it all. Just how many people had to be lying for his thesis to fit? If not one checker went around to the front of the building during that evening, the shutter could have already been raised at 9.05pm, In addition to that, Jane had no reason to be stood in front of Block 5 when JW saw her at around 8.15pm - she would have exited via the rear patio door.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 12, 2017, 02:07:37 AM
Sounds a bit of a mix max. From Jane's position she had a clear line of sight to where the man and child were.
Yes, Jane has always been quite clear about where she was when she saw Tannerman & the direction in which he was heading, contrary to the nonsense in O Enigma which shows Tannerman walking towards Block 4.
From Sylvia's statement:- "She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man"
So she was guessing.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 02:20:46 AM
Jez turn deaf aswell as blind did he? He had a pram and was not aware of his surroundings on a road LOL. We have his statement of being adamant Jane was not seen. He spotted Jane in purple earlier hanging outside the apartments like Jenny Murat did.
Please don't take the words of my post out of context ... I do not do that to you.
You have had this conversation before though on quite an informative thread which I recommend you read through again. Jenny Murat reported seeing a woman hanging around apartment 5a.
Pegasus posted: @ Anna. thanks yes that is what I was working from until I realised that the original rog of Mr W, which was in english, is not in the published files. The most original document we have is the PJ portuguese translation, which is in the files. The english we read tertiary internet translation, not the original, so I provide for the first time an accurate translation in this post.
I went back to the most original document of this rog that we have, the portuguese translation, which says:
"... julgo tê-la visto quando primeiro iniciei o meu passeio. Ela estava parada na rua em frente do apartamento de um dos elementos do grupo, quando eu passei para baixo a saída do meu apartamento. Não sei se era o seu proprio apartamento ou não. Recordo-me que usava um vestuário de cor purpura" and my accurate translation is "... I think I saw her when I first began my walk. She was standing in the street in front of the apartment of one of the group members, as I went down to the exit of my apartment. I do not know if it was her own apartment or not. I remember that she was wearing a purple colored clothing"
Therefore at the moment Mr W saw this woman, IMO he was just leaving his apartment, and looking out from the walkway on the 4th floor of block 4, and saw a woman wearing something purple, standing in the street Rua Dr Agosthina Da Silva, and level with block 5.
So when he sees this woman on the street, he is on the 4th floor, at a great distance, 30 metres at least, very probably more. IMO he saw the same woman that Mrs M saw, not JT. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6300.msg239376#msg239376
... and later ...
So now you are suggesting that JT was the woman standing on the SE corner of the T junction under the streetlight ? Wearing a white skirt? What on earth would she be doing there? It is illogical. Obviously the woman seen by Mrs M is not JT, JiMAO. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6300.msg239381#msg239381
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 02:31:08 AM
Glad to agree with you. Amaral identified the spot that Jez had drawn on his map and also the spot that Jane very definitely identified in the video where she argued with Gerry. Gerry was remembering incorrectly.
Maybe he started to cross to speak to Jez when a vehicle appeared and they retired back to the western kerb and pavement and the only part that stuck in Gerrys mind was crossing and a kerb ?
X marks the spot precisely at the curve widening the pavement into the lane making it very easy to envisage Jane's description of the event.
Why does everyone believe Wilkins above the others?
I believe that Wilkins was involved with looking at/ fussing over his little boy, so looking down and Jane was out of his line of vision. Also Jane was not someone that he knew at that time, as far as i am aware, so if a person vaguely registered, then the person would be soon forgotten. There were also cars parked long that stretch according to Stephen Carpenter. As he was standing in the rioad with his little one, I find it likely that he was in a protected position. i.e. between two vehicles. This would limit his view
I believe where he draws the cross because it is a definite place that would be remembered rather than somewhere along, say, an "anoymous" brick wall.
His written description lines up with where they were likely to meet up if Gerry wasw coming down the steps via the gate as he saw him initially.
Also Jane very definitely verifies the exact position in some anger when Gerry gets it wrong on the video
.... and now Amaral verfies the exact position in his video. Do watch that video critically. You will also see the broad expance of pavement and the plentiful room that Jane had to pass behind Gerry who had one foot in the road according to reports.
Thank You Goncalo for getting that right. Much appreciated, it verifies my argument
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=953
Does this help Rob ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 12, 2017, 04:59:51 AM
Amaral believes Jane took the path route back and avoided the men which means at the time crecheman said he passed she would have seen him crossing the car park entrance from the back of the apartments NOT the front.
That could explain how Jane saw crecheman and the other men (Gerry/Jez) didn't see her.
Was he walking down toward the supermarket to cross her field of view from the left to the right? Therefore he wasn't heading towards Murat's house at all then? Which direction was he walking? Name the road? Rua Dr. Augustino or Rua Dr. Gentil Martins or neither of these.
One of the points of Jane identifying Robert Murat was that the person seen may have been Robert Murat walking toward his residence. That tends to define the location and direction doesn't it? Is this another of Amaral multi pronged theories one of which could be correct if he comes up with enough of them.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 08:08:26 AM
Was he walking down toward the supermarket to cross her field of view from the left to the right? Therefore he wasn't heading towards Murat's house at all then? Which direction was he walking? Name the road? Rua Dr. Augustino or Rua Dr. Gentil Martins or neither of these.
One of the points of Jane identifying Robert Murat was that the person seen may have been Robert Murat walking toward his residence. That tends to define the location and direction doesn't it? Is this another of Amaral multi pronged theories one of which could be correct if he comes up with enough of them.
I think if the man Jane saw with the child had been Murat she would have recognised him in the flesh or something about him would have alerted her. From photographs I've seen of him at the time he was quite distinctive. She was very observant. She was quite clear that she did not recognise Murat.
I think Murat was just unfortunate to live in close proximity to the apartment and in the direction of travel.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2017, 10:19:08 AM
I think if the man Jane saw with the child had been Murat she would have recognised him in the flesh or something about him would have alerted her. From photographs I've seen of him at the time he was quite distinctive. She was very observant. She was quite clear that she did not recognise Murat.
I think Murat was just unfortunate to live in close proximity to the apartment and in the direction of travel.
Tanner had an image of a blank face.
Murat looks a lot like David Payne.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on September 12, 2017, 10:24:46 AM
So do you find Gerry changing his talk with Jez to a totally different side of the street despite two other witnesses claiming otherwise disgraceful too ?
I did answer your post Faith - but it has been zapped.
I confirmed that I didn't find it disgraceful that Gerry's recollection was different to the other two witnesses - as memory is notoriously fallible and it's normal for different people to have different memories of the same event.
I also stated that Amaral - who was NOT relying on memory - ignored the witness statements of the people who were there and instead decided to position Jez and Gerry - standing in the middle of the pavement in such a position that JT had to turn slightly to squeeze past them. That was not a truthful depiction of the situation imo,
I then gave my opinion - based on existing evidence - on why he would do that.
I have no idea why that post was removed.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2017, 10:29:57 AM
I do not believe there is any evidence of any inaccuracy either in recollection or description as far as Jane Tanner's eye witness account is concerned.
If you know of any, please cite it.
Exton certainly thought Tanner was an unreliable witness. This was illustrated quite dramatically by the recording of Tanner giving evidence to the PIs in the channel 5 programme The McCanns and the Conman.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2017, 10:37:05 AM
I did answer your post Faith - but it has been zapped.
I confirmed that I didn't find it disgraceful that Gerry's recollection was different to the other two witnesses - as memory is notoriously fallible and it's normal for different people to have different memories of the same event.
I also stated that Amaral - who was NOT relying on memory - ignored the witness statements of the people who were there and instead decided to position Jez and Gerry - standing in the middle of the pavement in such a position that JT had to turn slightly to squeeze past them. That was not a truthful depiction of the situation imo,
I then gave my opinion - based on existing evidence - on why he would do that.
I have no idea why that post was removed.
So two seperate witnesses place Gerry on a completely different side of the road to Gerry's 'recollection' yet Loach's documentary places Gerry/Jez at the spot intimated by Gerry. Do you find that truthful?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2017, 10:53:33 AM
"Amaral believes" - yep, that about says it all. Just how many people had to be lying for his thesis to fit? If not one checker went around to the front of the building during that evening, the shutter could have already been raised at 9.05pm, In addition to that, Jane had no reason to be stood in front of Block 5 when JW saw her at around 8.15pm - she would have exited via the rear patio door.
There are two routes back so both are a possibility.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 12, 2017, 11:06:45 AM
In the interview they mention about Gerry not using the front door. Also they say the key to the front door was left on the kitchen counter or something like that. Now what I want to raise is that I cannot accept that Gerry did not take the key with him in the first instance. I propose that there was some reason Gerry left his key behind after his 9:05 visit. I'm not sure for what but that is the start. You just don't leave your kids and the keys in the apartment. No one would do this normally. Someone could have locked the doors and there would be no way to get in or sure way for the kids to get out.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on September 12, 2017, 11:19:43 AM
So two seperate witnesses place Gerry on a completely different side of the road to Gerry's 'recollection' yet Loach's documentary places Gerry/Jez at the spot intimated by Gerry. Do you find that truthful?
There no comparison IMO. They had to choose one of the remembered places - and they chose Gerry's.
Amaral on the other hand - ignored the evidence of all three witnesses and HE decided to place them where HE wanted them to be. It cannot be ignored that his depiction was completely untrue -and imo it doesn't take rocket science to see why he would do that.
IMO Once Murat was off the hook and he turned his full attention onto the McCanns - JT's sighting became thoroughly inconvenient to his 'theory'. In my opinion, after reading his book and from what he has said about JT in interviews - his aim was to discredit her as a witness because of that.
What other reason could there be.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 12, 2017, 12:24:26 PM
Was he walking down toward the supermarket to cross her field of view from the left to the right? Therefore he wasn't heading towards Murat's house at all then? Which direction was he walking? Name the road? Rua Dr. Augustino or Rua Dr. Gentil Martins or neither of these.
One of the points of Jane identifying Robert Murat was that the person seen may have been Robert Murat walking toward his residence. That tends to define the location and direction doesn't it? Is this another of Amaral multi pronged theories one of which could be correct if he comes up with enough of them.
I think that as jane was only able to show the back of his head (part side view), that he was walking tiowards Murats house. Had he been walking in the direction of the man supposedly returning from the creche to his appartment, she would have had an three quarter full face view of him. That she obviously didn't have
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2017, 12:33:23 PM
There no comparison IMO. They had to choose one of the remembered places - and they chose Gerry's.
Amaral on the other hand - ignored the evidence of all three witnesses and HE decided to place them where HE wanted them to be. It cannot be ignored that his depiction was completely untrue -and imo it doesn't take rocket science to see why he would do that.
IMO Once Murat was off the hook and he turned his full attention onto the McCanns - JT's sighting became thoroughly inconvenient to his 'theory'. In my opinion, after reading his book and from what he has said about JT in interviews - his aim was to discredit her as a witness because of that.
What other reason could there be.
AIMHO
Jane Tanner kept changing her mind. First it was overweight clean shaven Murat then it was skinny hairy George Harrison - they don't look alike at all! Finally the truth was discovered by SY and the man Jane saw was cleared. A detective is not going to believe the words of a suspect not cleared as being the truth until they have fully investigated it. You would have to be a gullible fool to think otherwise.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2017, 12:42:31 PM
Jane Tanner kept changing her mind. First it was overweight clean shaven Murat then it was skinny hairy George Harrison - they don't look alike at all! Finally the truth was discovered by SY and the man Jane saw was cleared. A detective is not going to believe the words of a suspect not cleared as being the truth until they have fully investigated it. You would have to be a gullible fool to think otherwise.
JT did not change her mind. She never once identified Murat as the man she had seen. The George Harrison face was not composed from her description. She didn't see his face and so could not possibly describe it. IIRC JT and another person both gave the artist their separate descriptions which were then combined by the artist to form one full length picture - which JT considered to be 80% accurate. She could not say it was 100% accurate because she did not see 100% of the man. - i.e. she didn't see his face. IMO
(from memory - so am happy to be corrected if necessary)
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2017, 05:30:51 PM
There no comparison IMO. They had to choose one of the remembered places - and they chose Gerry's.
Amaral on the other hand - ignored the evidence of all three witnesses and HE decided to place them where HE wanted them to be. It cannot be ignored that his depiction was completely untrue -and imo it doesn't take rocket science to see why he would do that.
IMO Once Murat was off the hook and he turned his full attention onto the McCanns - JT's sighting became thoroughly inconvenient to his 'theory'. In my opinion, after reading his book and from what he has said about JT in interviews - his aim was to discredit her as a witness because of that.
What other reason could there be.
AIMHO
Firstly I believe where Amaral placed Jez and company is exactly where Jez himself said they were.
Secondly can you hazard a guess why when two of the witnesses agree the position of the main protagonists it was decided that the third witness was correct in his recollection ? Let me put it this way Benice, if there are five witnesses to an accident and four of them claim the accident happened in a certain way but the fifth disagrees who's opinion do you think would carry the greater weight?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 05:38:27 PM
Firstly I believe where Amaral placed Jez and company is exactly where Jez himself said they were.
Secondly can you hazard a guess why when two of the witnesses agree the position of the main protagonists it was decided that the third witness was correct in his recollection ? Let me put it this way Benice, if there are five witnesses to an accident and four of them claim the accident happened in a certain way but the fifth disagrees who's opinion do you think would carry the greater weight?
In my opinion in this instance the men were bit players. Jane Tanner was the witness. She witnessed the men in conversation. She witnessed the child carrier at the top of the street ahead of her.
What exactly did the men see? Jeremy's son and each other.
Jane also corroborated Jeremy's statement and Gerry's statement that they met and had a brief conversation.
She is a very important witness.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on September 12, 2017, 06:01:00 PM
Firstly I believe where Amaral placed Jez and company is exactly where Jez himself said they were.
Secondly can you hazard a guess why when two of the witnesses agree the position of the main protagonists it was decided that the third witness was correct in his recollection ? Let me put it this way Benice, if there are five witnesses to an accident and four of them claim the accident happened in a certain way but the fifth disagrees who's opinion do you think would carry the greater weight?
Jez did not place himself, his buggy and Gerry in the middle of the pavement in the path of JT who had to move slightly to avoid brushing against one of them as she passed.
I have no idea why they decided to use Gerry's recollection of where he stood in the video as I was not privy to the discussions.
IMO because both JT and Jez have similar recollections - then I think they were probably right and Gerry was wrong.
None of that makes any difference to the fact that Amarals depiction of where they stood is not from the witness statements, it was his own invention - for his own reasons - and is derogatory to JT as it makes a mockery of her description of where Gerry and Jez stood. IMO It also makes a mockery out of his claim that his theory was based on the files. None the allegations, sneers etc which he makes about JT in order to discredit her as a witness can be found in the files.
IMO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: slartibartfast on September 12, 2017, 07:12:14 PM
Jez did not place himself, his buggy and Gerry in the middle of the pavement in the path of JT who had to move slightly to avoid brushing against one of them as she passed.
I have no idea why they decided to use Gerry's recollection of where he stood in the video as I was not privy to the discussions.
IMO because both JT and Jez have similar recollections - then I think they were probably right and Gerry was wrong.
None of that makes any difference to the fact that Amarals depiction of where they stood is not from the witness statements, it was his own invention - for his own reasons - and is derogatory to JT as it makes a mockery of her description of where Gerry and Jez stood. IMO It also makes a mockery out of his claim that his theory was based on the files. None the allegations, sneers etc which he makes about JT in order to discredit her as a witness can be found in the files.
IMO
When did Jane say she had to avoid them and brush past?
Fact is Jane couldn't remember passing them because she said she would have given Gerry stick for being gone so long. That did not happen from your reliable witness - she cannot remember the full details as she is not sure what actually happened! God knows how you can believe she could brush past two people on a quiet deserted street without either noticing her. That is too daft for words. Jez was adamant Jane did not pass him.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2017, 07:56:17 PM
In my opinion in this instance the men were bit players. Jane Tanner was the witness. She witnessed the men in conversation. She witnessed the child carrier at the top of the street ahead of her.
What exactly did the men see? Jeremy's son and each other.
Jane also corroborated Jeremy's statement and Gerry's statement that they met and had a brief conversation.
She is a very important witness.
No she isn't. SY have all but excluded the man allegedly seen by Tanner as a suspect. Tanner's sighting has not relevance whatsoever.
Pity though that the McCanns PIs chose to back Tanner's sighting instead of the one SY is now following. Lack of funds was cited. Enough money to sue but not to follow up important leads it would appear.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 08:23:40 PM
No she isn't. SY have all but excluded the man allegedly seen by Tanner as a suspect. Tanner's sighting has not relevance whatsoever.
Pity though that the McCanns PIs chose to back Tanner's sighting instead of the one SY is now following. Lack of funds was cited. Enough money to sue but not to follow up important leads it would appear.
Please remember to add caveats when stating opinions. Facts require cites. Thank you
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2017, 08:35:53 PM
I's a contradiction because Tanner did not flip-flop over them. Do a reconstruction if you have doubts. Tannerman is cleared, the other sighting of efits not released for years is not.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 12, 2017, 08:48:53 PM
No she isn't. SY have all but excluded the man allegedly seen by Tanner as a suspect. Tanner's sighting has not relevance whatsoever.
Pity though that the McCanns PIs chose to back Tanner's sighting instead of the one SY is now following. Lack of funds was cited. Enough money to sue but not to follow up important leads it would appear.
If Tannerman is innocent who or how does the door move within the apartment? Would Gerry leave his keys behind if there was an intruder in the apartment? It does not make any sense to me.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 12, 2017, 08:56:18 PM
if the statements are contradictory it is natural to question who is telling the truth.
If GM & JW were standing at the location JW said, ie, 5 yards down from the rear gate to 5A, who wouldn't he have seen Jane going into the alleyway? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/9of8-ecf89375.gif - map
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 12, 2017, 08:59:52 PM
If GM & JW were standing at the location JW said, ie, 5 yards down from the rear gate to 5A, who wouldn't he have seen Jane going into the alleyway? http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/9of8-ecf89375.gif - map
They can't all be correct. Someone must be mistaken or making us mistaken. How do we say it when we are not allowed to?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 09:38:55 PM
I's a contradiction because Tanner did not flip-flop over them. Do a reconstruction if you have doubts. Tannerman is cleared, the other sighting of efits suppressed for years is not.
Sorry PF. That still from Amaral's video really cuts the ground out from under your argument and proves what Benice, Sadie et al have been saying.
A picture is worth a thousand words and in my opinion this one shows that Amaral has misrepresented Jeremy's testimony ... and has misrepresented Jane's testimony.
People were shown this as a true and proper representation ... it patently is not,
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2017, 09:56:20 PM
'At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.'
'From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where.'
So right on the pathway ( not on the road ), near the gate ( so not on the other side of the road ) and 5 metres from the pathway leading to the front of the apartment block ( so nowhere near the corner ).
Just as the Amaral documentary illustrated.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2017, 10:57:45 PM
To all those who have accused Amaral of misrepresenting the positions of the main protagonists during the Jez/Gerry talk I have now posted irrefutable proof that Amaral was indeed correct by posting Jez's statements. Would you mind awfully withdrawing your accusation?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2017, 11:06:43 PM
Sorry PF. That still from Amaral's video really cuts the ground out from under your argument and proves what Benice, Sadie et al have been saying.
A picture is worth a thousand words and in my opinion this one shows that Amaral has misrepresented Jeremy's testimony ... and has misrepresented Jane's testimony.
People were shown this as a true and proper representation ... it patently is not,
You are funny. Check out JW statement being near the side gate. The path 5 metres to his left as he was facing the side gate and saw steps going up.
"I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 11:09:34 PM
'At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.'
'From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where.'
So right on the pathway ( not on the road ), near the gate ( so not on the other side of the road ) and 5 metres from the pathway leading to the front of the apartment block ( so nowhere near the corner ).
Just as the Amaral documentary illustrated.
I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15.
I cannot affirm if I saw him exactly leaving the apartment through the passageway, and if he was heading towards the tapas Bar. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Amaral has them standing directly in front of the gate ... to be there ... it would have been impossible for Jeremy not to have seen Gerry come down the staircase and exit the gate.
It was not a static event. There was movement on the part of both men. Jez did not know where Gerry came from ... if they were standing where Amaral has placed them he would have seen. Or because both were in motion they would have collided right outside it ... Amaral's positioning is wrong.
For me X marks the spot.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 11:14:11 PM
You are funny. Check out JW statement being near the side gate. The path 5 metres to his left as he was facing the side gate and saw steps going up.
"I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
Near is the operative word ... not at. Had it been at ... as per Amaral ... he would have known exactly where Gerry came from. He did not.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2017, 11:17:04 PM
JW was there not you, Sadie or Benice. He was not on the path corner that Sadie claims or he would have said that in his statement. "I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs." It's not rocket science. That would be changed to "I met him on the corner of the pathway" if it were true. His statement said he was close to the side gate and stairs.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 11:22:14 PM
To all those who have accused Amaral of misrepresenting the positions of the main protagonists during the Jez/Gerry talk I have now posted irrefutable proof that Amaral was indeed correct by posting Jez's statements. Would you mind awfully withdrawing your accusation?
Please remember to include a caveat when expressing an opinion. Did Jez stand outside the gate with his eyes closed? If he didn't ... why couldn't he see where Gerry came from? ...
" I cannot affirm if I saw him exactly leaving the apartment through the passageway ... " http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2017, 11:25:45 PM
JW was there not you, Sadie or Benice. He was not on the path corner that Sadie claims or he would have said that in his statement. "I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs." It's not rocket science. That would be changed to "I met him on the corner of the pathway" if it were true. His statement said he was close to the side gate and stairs.
Indeed so ... and he put a cross on a piece of paper indicating exactly where they stood. Which is not where Amaral, who also wasn't there, placed them both.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2017, 11:30:09 PM
I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15.
I cannot affirm if I saw him exactly leaving the apartment through the passageway, and if he was heading towards the tapas Bar. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Amaral has them standing directly in front of the gate ... to be there ... it would have been impossible for Jeremy not to have seen Gerry come down the staircase and exit the gate.
It was not a static event. There was movement on the part of both men. Jez did not know where Gerry came from ... if they were standing where Amaral has placed them he would have seen. Or because both were in motion they would have collided right outside it ... Amaral's positioning is wrong.
For me X marks the spot.
Gerry could have exited the gate, walked a couple of steps forward then stopped as he saw Jez coming around the corner. This would explain why Jez didn't know whether Gerry had just left the apartment or was heading towards the tapas. If Gerry had been any further down the path he would have had his back to Jez so Jez would have had to call out to grab his attention. There is no record of this in Jez's statement. It would also have been obvious to him that Gerry was heading down to the tapas.
Much more sensible than simply ignoring Jez's recollections.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 12, 2017, 11:30:50 PM
Indeed so ... and he put a cross on a piece of paper indicating exactly where they stood. Which is not where Amaral, who also wasn't there, placed them both.
And the measurements in his statements ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2017, 11:45:34 PM
I had this sort of argument with the same folk on here about two or three years ago. It is not beyond the wit of man to read the statements and plot out the possible positions people were in from their statements. Any investigator worth his salt whether professional or rank amateur would have done it in short order. The fact that no one has on here means the opinions are all guesswork. I wouldn't mind betting that the PJ ran a tape over it and fed the results through that whizzy software they use.
ps I plotted it out a few years ago. It is an eye opener.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 13, 2017, 12:49:33 AM
I had this sort of argument with the same folk on here about two or three years ago. It is not beyond the wit of man to read the statements and plot out the possible positions people were in from their statements. Any investigator worth his salt whether professional or rank amateur would have done it in short order. The fact that no one has on here means the opinions are all guesswork. I wouldn't mind betting that the PJ ran a tape over it and fed the results through that whizzy software they use.
ps I plotted it out a few years ago. It is an eye opener.
Indeed Alice.
It seems that no matter what the evidence to the contrary some members just refuse to see the wood from those tall leafy things.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 13, 2017, 01:01:59 AM
It seems that no matter what the evidence to the contrary some members just refuse to see the wood from those tall leafy things.
JW's diagram paints a thousand words.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 13, 2017, 01:49:45 AM
This proves exactly where Gerry and Jez were chatting
Click on the subtitle icon (bottom right hand side) to turn the English subtitles on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUHp85TyJ0Y
Admin note:
* The above media presentation is provided for discussion purposes * Endorsement of such material is neither intended nor implied
At about 15.54 Amaral points out the EXACT spot where Jez and Gerry were standing chatting. Note the depth of the pavement at that point. About 9 feet
Please make the effort and look
Amaral confirms in a very definite manner exactly where Jez and Gerry were chatting And he is agreeing with Jez and Jane. They were chatting in the roadway/on the kerb just by the alleyway on the west side of Rua Francisco GM as claimed by Jane and Jez in his diagram and in a more woolley manner his descriptions
Three of them agreeing. No other proof needed
Jane passed Gerry and Jez by the alleyway where the pavement was about 9 feet deep.
Plenty of passing space
The myth is over. Trashed by Amaral. Thank you Mr Amaral.
Please can we move on, instead of keep going round and round in circles?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 04:04:27 AM
"As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left." This is taken in November 2007
Earlier statement not so detailed "As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.
I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs. I was pretty certain that he had left the apartment. We spoke for a few minutes. He said you're on walking duty. I said I was staying in and pros and cons and what to do with the children."
So if he crossed the road how did he meet Gerry by the gate? Or did he see Gerry coming out of the apartment then crossed the road to meet Gerry by the gate?
From his rogatory "When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar."
I defy anyone to draw the route that jez took regardless of where Gerry and Jez finally meet up.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 06:53:24 AM
"As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left." This is taken in November 2007
Earlier statement not so detailed "As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.
I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs. I was pretty certain that he had left the apartment. We spoke for a few minutes. He said you're on walking duty. I said I was staying in and [ censored word ] and cons and what to do with the children."
So if he crossed the road how did he meet Gerry by the gate? Or did he see Gerry coming out of the apartment then crossed the road to meet Gerry by the gate?
From his rogatory "When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar."
I defy anyone to draw the route that jez took regardless of where Gerry and Jez finally meet up.
The names of the streets are not mentioned but they end in T intersection, so if he gets to the intersection and then sees Gerry on the other side of the road Gerry just having left his gate. How did he with a pram catch up with Gerry or did Gerry walk up hill to meet with Jez? If he had called out to Gerry maybe Gerry turned around and went back up to talk to Jez but if you start off 20 meters apart it is hard to see how they met up with each other.
Let's look at what Gerry says to see if what Jez says twice that he was at the intersection initially.
Gerry's 10th May statement states: "----- After going through the side gate, and while on his way to the secondary reception entrance, less than 10 metres from the gate, he saw JEZ coming up the street on the opposite pavement bring with him a baby carriage with his youngest child. He crossed the road in JEZ's direction who would come up on the right-hand side [when viewed] from the ascending direction, both having chatted for 3 to 4 minutes, about tennis, holidays and children. While he maintained the conversation with JEZ he saw no-one from the group, nor detected any suspicious individual or vehicle. Because he had been specifically asked, he relates that during this period of time he did not see with certainty JANE pass that location, although it is clear that he was speaking when in front of JEZ, his back to the other pathway on which his apartment is situated. He relates also that JEZ never said to him that he had seen any person given that he was in front."
Here I get the picture of Gerry going down hill and Jez coming up hill on the other side of the road. Somewhere in the middle of the road they chat for a while. Gerry would have been facing away from the footpath Jane says she was on.
Nothing specific in his 4th May statement: "he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant."
Jane does not give much detail either: "At that time she observed GM talking to an English citizen called Jez that they had met on these holidays. He played tennis with them. She doesn't know if they saw her giving the assurance that, on her part, she did not start a conversation with either of them.
She passed them knowing that GM had already been in the apartment to see the children.
She doesn't recall the position/orientation of either Jez or GM while they spoke to each other on the street, only having the perception that one was on the pavement and the other was in the road next to the other. Jez had a baby carriage, the deponent knowing that he had a small child." 10th May
4th May says even less. "She remembers that at about 21.10 Gerald left the restaurant (3) to go to the apartment to check on the children. Five minutes later, the witness left, to go to her apartment to see whether her daughters were OK. At this moment she saw Gerry talking to an Englishman called Jez whom they had got to know during the holidays. They played tennis with him.
She passed by them knowing that Gerry had already been in the apartment (1) to check his children."
Rogatory:"I mean, I thought they were, as you’re going up here, I thought they were more, erm, again I know this is where me and Gerry differ, but I thought they were sort of more near the little alleyway. I think sort of” . 4078 “Is that the alleyway, sorry, would that be (inaudible)?” Reply “Yeah, sort of here. I thought they were sort of round this sort of bit here”. and later " I don’t think they were by the apartment gate, I thought they were sort of a bit further down, down the road than that”.
4078 “So where would the apartment gate be then?” Reply “Probably here I should think”.
4078 “And that would lead down to the roadside door of their apartment or the poolside door of their apartment?” Reply “That leads to the poolside door”.
4078 “Right. So you think they were quite a bit further down?” Reply “I think, yeah, I mean, somewhere within this, I don’t think they were right outside the gate for sure. "
So I think Jane agrees more with Gerry that she does with Jez. The alley way she recalls could have been the entrance to the car park.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 13, 2017, 09:10:16 AM
It’s Rua Francisco Gentil Martin, Rob
Statement is straight from Jezes mouth in English Leicester Police station dated 08 APRIL 2008. In response to a direct question. Jez is very clear about the place where he first saw Gerry and where he himself was.
The exact position, he draws on a map which we have all just seen in immediately previous posts
Question: Relative to the exact location you met Gerry'
-snip- After leaving the WC, I continued to walk around the back of the tennis court, and returned via the pathway opposite the pool in the Tapas complex. Whilst walking the streets, I was hoping my son would fall asleep. Some of the walkways did not have an exit and for this reason I walked practically in circles. When walking one of these paths, I came across a tourist called Curtis with his girlfriend whose name I do not know. He also knew Gerry from the tennis lessons. I remember passing by them but I assumed they were headed to dinner
After leaving the WC, I continued to walk around the back of the tennis court, and returned via the pathway opposite the pool in the Tapas complex. Whilst walking the streets, I was hoping my son would fall asleep. Some of the walkways did not have an exit and for this reason I walked practically in circles. When walking one of these paths, I came across a tourist called Curtis with his girlfriend whose name I do not know. He also knew Gerry from the tennis lessons. I remember passing by them but I assumed they were headed to dinnerEventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period.
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where. –snip-
We now have four facts straight from the horses mouths. - Jez eventually tieing himself down with what he says, verbatum, in English so no translation errors and his actual words. - Jezes map, which very clearly indicates the alleyway - Janes very persuasive video account, where she argues with Gerry in front of the alleyway - Amaral pointing to exactly the same spot - in front of the alleyway
They chatted on the western side of Rua Francisco in front of that alleyway
MYTH OVER. Amaral confirmed the exact spot.
Please lets not keep going over the same old, same old stuff
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 09:35:01 AM
I'm not convinced for you have not shown where the pathway is . "the pathway opposite the pool in the Tapas complex." show it on a map please. (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/4aug7/mail-10-08-2007map.gif) Can you see the path here? What is your point in highlighting those words Sadie?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2017, 09:50:00 AM
IMO if they were standing as shown in that piccie - taking up most of the pavement - then anyone walking up on the same pavement would have stepped into the road to get round them. It would not be 'natural' to have chosen to squeeze between them and the hedged wall to get past as shown in the video.
The spot marked with an X by Jez shows them next to the pavement not standing on it. That is similar to JT's memory of where they stood.
It seems none of them had 100% perfect recollections of where they stood. That's because we have memories not video recorders with a playback button. None of them lied - they just had differing memories of what happened during a few minutes on 3rd May which at the time had no importance and which they had no need to make a special mental note of.
IMO Amarals aim was to show that JT could not have walked up the road without being seen by Jez and Gerry - in order to cast doubt on the veracity of her claim to have seen a man crossing the road ahead of her. But that is exactly what did happen - she did walk up the road and she did see Jez and Gerry talking but they didn't see her. Therefore Jez and Gerry could not have been standing in the middle of the pavement when JT passed them.
Either you believe Amaral or you believe JT. There is not a single credible reason why JT would make the massive decision to perjure herself to the police and lie about seeing a man carrying a child crossing the road ahead of her. On the other hand it would have greatly suited Amaral's 'theory' (that it was the parents 'wotdunnit') if Tannerman did not exist. Hence his many attempts to discredit JT as a credible witness.
IMO his claim that Jez and Gerry stood in the middle of the pavement is just part and parcel of that attempt to convince the public that Jane Tanner could not be believed.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 13, 2017, 11:02:21 AM
IMO if they were standing as shown in that piccie - taking up most of the pavement - then anyone walking up on the same pavement would have stepped into the road to get round them. It would not be 'natural' to have chosen to squeeze between them and the hedged wall to get past as shown in the video.
The spot marked with an X by Jez shows them next to the pavement not standing on it. That is similar to JT's memory of where they stood.
It seems none of them had 100% perfect recollections of where they stood. That's because we have memories not video recorders with a playback button. None of them lied - they just had differing memories of what happened during a few minutes on 3rd May which at the time had no importance and which they had no need to make a special mental note of.
IMO Amarals aim was to show that JT could not have walked up the road without being seen by Jez and Gerry - in order to cast doubt on the veracity of her claim to have seen a man crossing the road ahead of her. But that is exactly what did happen - she did walk up the road and she did see Jez and Gerry talking but they didn't see her. Therefore Jez and Gerry could not have been standing in the middle of the pavement when JT passed them.
Either you believe Amaral or you believe JT. There is not a single credible reason why JT would make the massive decision to perjure herself to the police and lie about seeing a man carrying a child crossing the road ahead of her. On the other hand it would have greatly suited Amaral's 'theory' (that it was the parents 'wotdunnit') if Tannerman did not exist. Hence his many attempts to discredit JT as a credible witness.
IMO his claim that Jez and Gerry stood in the middle of the pavement is just part and parcel of that attempt to convince the public that Jane Tanner could not be believed.
AIMHO
Or you believe JW who has no axe to grind and said that the conversation took place on the pathway 5m from the the turning to the front of the apartments.
As an aside the Amaral video does ably demonstrate how narrow the path is even if one of the protagonists was standing slightly off of the pavement and how impossible it would have been for Jez not to spot Tanner as she would have been in his view from when she left the tapas bar entrance to turning at the top of the road.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 13, 2017, 11:04:43 AM
IMO if they were standing as shown in that piccie - taking up most of the pavement - then anyone walking up on the same pavement would have stepped into the road to get round them. It would not be 'natural' to have chosen to squeeze between them and the hedged wall to get past as shown in the video.
The spot marked with an X by Jez shows them next to the pavement not standing on it. That is similar to JT's memory of where they stood.
It seems none of them had 100% perfect recollections of where they stood. That's because we have memories not video recorders with a playback button. None of them lied - they just had differing memories of what happened during a few minutes on 3rd May which at the time had no importance and which they had no need to make a special mental note of.
IMO Amarals aim was to show that JT could not have walked up the road without being seen by Jez and Gerry - in order to cast doubt on the veracity of her claim to have seen a man crossing the road ahead of her. But that is exactly what did happen - she did walk up the road and she did see Jez and Gerry talking but they didn't see her. Therefore Jez and Gerry could not have been standing in the middle of the pavement when JT passed them.
Either you believe Amaral or you believe JT. There is not a single credible reason why JT would make the massive decision to perjure herself to the police and lie about seeing a man carrying a child crossing the road ahead of her. On the other hand it would have greatly suited Amaral's 'theory' (that it was the parents 'wotdunnit') if Tannerman did not exist. Hence his many attempts to discredit JT as a credible witness.
IMO his claim that Jez and Gerry stood in the middle of the pavement is just part and parcel of that attempt to convince the public that Jane Tanner could not be believed.
AIMHO
The witness admits that she cannot remember.
I would probably guess Gerry’s back was more towards me, because I would have thought if I’d have seen him I would have definitely probably stopped and said ‘Oh you’re in trouble, you’ve been long, we think you’ve been watching the footy’, you know, but. Because I think that’s almost when I went to acknowledge them, that’s almost what went through my head, you know, is to sort of give a bit of abuse about the fact he’d been so long, but. So I would imagine his, maybe his back was to me, but. And, again, in that way, that would make more sense, because I don’t know Jez, so it’s not like I would have gone ‘Oh hi Jez’, you know, that way, so. Yeah, I, I honestly, I can’t remember now which way they were. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on September 13, 2017, 11:52:37 AM
Or you believe JW who has no axe to grind and said that the conversation took place on the pathway 5m from the the turning to the front of the apartments.
As an aside the Amaral video does ably demonstrate how narrow the path is even if one of the protagonists was standing slightly off of the pavement and how impossible it would have been for Jez not to spot Tanner as she would have been in his view from when she left the tapas bar entrance to turning at the top of the road.
Jez had no axe to grind either when he placed his X marks the spot on the road not on the pavement.
As previously mentioned I do not have a problem with Jez and Gerry not seeing JT in the few seconds it took her to pass them as I have experienced a very similar scenario myself where a jogger passed between me -standing at the garden gate and my grandson sitting in his car 8 or 9 feet away from me with his door wide open.
Grandson did not see the jogger - because he had his head bent down looking for his keys which he'd dropped as he leaned out to close the car door a second before the man passed between us.
When I laughingly asked him what he thought of the joggers shorts - he replied - What jogger? To my surprise he hadn't seen this man who had just passed him by - a few feet away from him.
So I know it can happen. It's all a matter of 'timing'.
If Gerry had his back to the pavement then it's reasonable to assume he did not see JT. If Jez happened to be looking down or bending down to attend to his baby - then it is also reasonable to assume that he missed what was happening on the pavement in the few seconds it took JT to pass them.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 12:00:53 PM
Or you believe JW who has no axe to grind and said that the conversation took place on the pathway 5m from the the turning to the front of the apartments.
As an aside the Amaral video does ably demonstrate how narrow the path is even if one of the protagonists was standing slightly off of the pavement and how impossible it would have been for Jez not to spot Tanner as she would have been in his view from when she left the tapas bar entrance to turning at the top of the road.
Why do you claim Jez Wilkins has no axe to grind? You are being biased in your opinion of the witness testimonies IMO. They should all be treated equal IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 12:19:22 PM
Jez had no axe to grind either when he placed his X marks the spot on the road not on the pavement.
As previously mentioned I do not have a problem with Jez and Gerry not seeing JT in the few seconds it took her to pass them as I have experienced a very similar scenario myself where a jogger passed between me -standing at the garden gate and my grandson sitting in his car 8 or 9 feet away from me with his door wide open.
Grandson did not see the jogger - because he had his head bent down looking for his keys which he'd dropped as he leaned out to close the car door a second before the man passed between us.
When I laughingly asked him what he thought of the joggers shorts - he replied - What jogger? To my surprise he hadn't seen this man who had just passed him by - a few feet away from him.
So I know it can happen. It's all a matter of 'timing'.
If Gerry had his back to the pavement then it's reasonable to assume he did not see JT. If Jez happened to be looking down or bending down to attend to his baby - then it is also reasonable to assume that he missed what was happening on the pavement in the few seconds it took JT to pass them.
AIMHO
I noticed you had edited your post. A good example and rightly so, but Jez does not concede to any reason why he would have missed seeing Jane. Gerry gives a reason and does not deny the possibility that Jane passed by him unnoticed, but not so Jez (to the same extent). I did see a small concession in the statement.
"He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one. He also stated that he did not see or hear anyone to his right. He was aware of the recent picture in the papers re the person with a child wrapped in a blanket and in a males arms allegedly walking across the junction to his right but again stated that he did not see any one." Allows for the situation you describe of distraction. He is not saying it was so quiet you could have heard a pin drop.
In his first statement he doesn't mention Jane but just says "I don't remember anyone else walking around with a child." Which means, since Jane did not have a child, she may or may not have passed by.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 13, 2017, 02:00:27 PM
Jez had no axe to grind either when he placed his X marks the spot on the road not on the pavement.
As previously mentioned I do not have a problem with Jez and Gerry not seeing JT in the few seconds it took her to pass them as I have experienced a very similar scenario myself where a jogger passed between me -standing at the garden gate and my grandson sitting in his car 8 or 9 feet away from me with his door wide open.
Grandson did not see the jogger - because he had his head bent down looking for his keys which he'd dropped as he leaned out to close the car door a second before the man passed between us.
When I laughingly asked him what he thought of the joggers shorts - he replied - What jogger? To my surprise he hadn't seen this man who had just passed him by - a few feet away from him.
So I know it can happen. It's all a matter of 'timing'.
If Gerry had his back to the pavement then it's reasonable to assume he did not see JT. If Jez happened to be looking down or bending down to attend to his baby - then it is also reasonable to assume that he missed what was happening on the pavement in the few seconds it took JT to pass them.
AIMHO
That comparison is nonsense. Gerry and Jez did not have their heads on a floor looking for keys. So where do you think both their heads were when Jane walked passed (not jogging)?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 13, 2017, 03:13:14 PM
That comparison is nonsense. Gerry and Jez did not have their heads on a floor looking for keys. So where do you think both their heads were when Jane walked passed (not jogging)?
If Jane had been dressed like Kim Kardashian on a night out you can bet your last dollar both men would have noticed her passing by. They still wouldn't have noticed Tannerman, though. IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 13, 2017, 03:19:09 PM
Jez had no axe to grind either when he placed his X marks the spot on the road not on the pavement.
As previously mentioned I do not have a problem with Jez and Gerry not seeing JT in the few seconds it took her to pass them as I have experienced a very similar scenario myself where a jogger passed between me -standing at the garden gate and my grandson sitting in his car 8 or 9 feet away from me with his door wide open.
Grandson did not see the jogger - because he had his head bent down looking for his keys which he'd dropped as he leaned out to close the car door a second before the man passed between us.
When I laughingly asked him what he thought of the joggers shorts - he replied - What jogger? To my surprise he hadn't seen this man who had just passed him by - a few feet away from him.
So I know it can happen. It's all a matter of 'timing'.
If Gerry had his back to the pavement then it's reasonable to assume he did not see JT. If Jez happened to be looking down or bending down to attend to his baby - then it is also reasonable to assume that he missed what was happening on the pavement in the few seconds it took JT to pass them.
AIMHO
And Tanners drawing putting them nearer the gate ?
Jez's measurements would have been thoroughly thought out and a much truer depiction of where they were standing and further Jez had been attending his baby and that was the reason he didn't see her don't you think he would have mentioned the possibility in his statements? Jez would have to have been looking any other way but at Tanner ( and that's not taking in to account hearing the sound of her flip flops ) for the time it took her to walk out of the tapas entrance to when she disappeared around the corner of the road. It that really feasible?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 13, 2017, 03:20:53 PM
And Tanner puts the discussion much closer to the gate. Your thoughts ?
Measurements are finite. There is no room for argument.
Jeremy Wilkins 7/5/07 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm "I have drawn a map of the complex and marked an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday evening ' JW 1. I have also produced a map, from the holiday brochure also with an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday ' JW 2.' "
Jane Tanner 10/5/07 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm "She doesn't recall the position/orientation of either Jez or GM while they spoke to each other on the street, only having the perception that one was on the pavement and the other was in the road next to the other. Jez had a baby carriage, the deponent knowing that he had a small child."
The freshest recollections are usually the most accurate.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on September 13, 2017, 04:25:57 PM
That comparison is nonsense. Gerry and Jez did not have their heads on a floor looking for keys. So where do you think both their heads were when Jane walked passed (not jogging)?
Well presumably Gerry didn't have eyes in the back of his head, and unless Jez had abnormally long arms he would have to bend down and also have to look down at his baby if he needed his attention. To tuck him in? To replace his dummy? Who knows.
IMO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 13, 2017, 04:32:36 PM
Jeremy Wilkins 7/5/07 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm "I have drawn a map of the complex and marked an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday evening ' JW 1. I have also produced a map, from the holiday brochure also with an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday ' JW 2.' "
Jane Tanner 10/5/07 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm "She doesn't recall the position/orientation of either Jez or GM while they spoke to each other on the street, only having the perception that one was on the pavement and the other was in the road next to the other. Jez had a baby carriage, the deponent knowing that he had a small child."
The freshest recollections are usually the most accurate.
Indeed Benice. From Tanner's 4th May statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50.jpg
And this is the map from the holiday brochure mentioned above by Wilkins http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_505.jpg. Not quite as clear cut.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 13, 2017, 05:48:30 PM
Indeed Benice. From Tanner's 4th May statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50.jpg
And this is the map from the holiday brochure mentioned above by Wilkins http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_505.jpg. Not quite as clear cut.
Fastforward to 2013AD & the Met announce they are almost sure they have identified the man JT saw on the 3rd May 2007, thus validating her statement. What JW or GM missed seeing or disagreed on positioning is irrelevant. Can you explain why Amaral steadfastly ignored that revelation during the making of O Enigma?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2017, 06:01:03 PM
Fastforward to 2013AD & the Met announce they are almost sure they have identified the man JT saw on the 3rd May 2007, thus validating her statement. What JW or GM missed seeing or disagreed on positioning is irrelevant. Can you explain why Amaral steadfastly ignored that revelation during the making of O Enigma?
He was discussing his investigation, not OG's.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on September 13, 2017, 06:28:13 PM
Indeed Benice. From Tanner's 4th May statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50.jpg
And this is the map from the holiday brochure mentioned above by Wilkins http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_505.jpg. Not quite as clear cut.
I don't see the point of going into the minutiae of statements when it is apparent that none of them have identical recollections of the same event.
IMO either you believe Jane Tanner gave her genuine recollection of what happened on her way back to check her children - and that Amaral set out to discredit her version because it didn't suit his agenda for people to believe her. Or you believe Amarals contention that she was not a credible witness and believe his attempts to prove that she wasn't were valid.
AFAIAC Jane Tanner had no reason to lie whilst imo Amaral had every reason at the time to convince the public that she should not be believed.. Why he is still continuing to do that now that crecheman has proved JT was telling the truth is anyone's guess.
If you believe the opposite and that she did have reason to lie and that Amaral is right to try to convince the public that she was not a credible witness - then I am more than happy to hear your reasons why.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 13, 2017, 06:40:15 PM
Amaral didn't discredit her. Jane did it herself - she cannot remember passing Gerry/Jez but she can remember seeing the man crossing at the top. We've got first hand witness accounts being confused by her recollections. How she thought she brushed past two on a pavement without being seen nor heard is simply not believable.
At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child. This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
At that moment a female individual, he does not know whether she was a member of the group of friends, who was in the neighbouring apartment, said that she saw an individual carrying a child, running, and that because of the pyjamas she was wearing it could have been Madeleine. It was in these circumstances that abduction began to be talked about. He made a report about this situation and sent it to the police.
This sighting did not seem to him to be very credible, because when he asked her about the physical characteristics of the individual, she said it was very dark, however she saw the pyjamas clearly. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 07:28:39 PM
Jeremy Wilkins 7/5/07 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm "I have drawn a map of the complex and marked an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday evening ' JW 1. I have also produced a map, from the holiday brochure also with an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday ' JW 2.' "
Jane Tanner 10/5/07 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm "She doesn't recall the position/orientation of either Jez or GM while they spoke to each other on the street, only having the perception that one was on the pavement and the other was in the road next to the other. Jez had a baby carriage, the deponent knowing that he had a small child."
The freshest recollections are usually the most accurate.
The words ""I have drawn a map of the complex and marked an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday evening ' JW 1. " Is the clue. This is just the spot where he first "saw Gerry" not where they stood and spoke. Both of the men saw each other in a different place than where they stood and spoke. They are both walking and how do you close that distance. If Gerry came out of the gate which direction was he heading? Where was Jez when he first saw Gerry and how did he close that distance?
It would be impossible to come together if they were walking in the same direction. If they were on opposite sides of the road they could meet in the middle. But they are both moving so the final meeting spot is not where they first saw each other unless one stands still.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 07:49:44 PM
Amaral didn't discredit her. Jane did it herself - she cannot remember passing Gerry/Jez but she can remember seeing the man crossing at the top. We've got first hand witness accounts being confused by her recollections. How she thought she brushed past two on a pavement without being seen nor heard is simply not believable.
At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child. This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
At that moment a female individual, he does not know whether she was a member of the group of friends, who was in the neighbouring apartment, said that she saw an individual carrying a child, running, and that because of the pyjamas she was wearing it could have been Madeleine. It was in these circumstances that abduction began to be talked about. He made a report about this situation and sent it to the police.
This sighting did not seem to him to be very credible, because when he asked her about the physical characteristics of the individual, she said it was very dark, however she saw the pyjamas clearly. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA.htm
Was Nelson da Costa able to speak English? It doesn't sound like he spoke one on one with Jane in English for if he had he would have known her name IMO. Can we even be sure he is talking to Jane? How come he didn't write these details down?
That report Nelson da Costa writes about was that a written document or just a phone call? " He made a report about this situation and sent it to the police."
From my studies it wasn't until the Saturday that Jane thought it might have been Madeleine because of the pyjamas. This report is not an actual account from the night but more a summary of events over a few days IMO. Unless I see the dated report from Nelson I don't believe what he says was entirely from the night of the 3rd. (Note the statement by Da Costa is dated 17 th October 2007. Months later.)
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2017, 08:44:13 PM
Sketches normally are a bit sketchy. You could hardly expect poor old Jez to be on hols with a 30m tape and/or laser measure secreted in his luggage just in case could you?. Both Jez and Jane put "the spot" in an envelope approx 3500 to 4000 x 1500 with the long side running north south with the NW corner of the envelope being roughly by the gate. Bearing in mind the average human is crap at estimating mass, time and distance that is about as good you will get. Gerry on the other hand makes it an envelope approx 7000 x 1200 with the long side running east west and "the spot" on the NE corner of the envelope on an indeterminate line south of the gate. laters.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 08:57:21 PM
Sketches normally are a bit sketchy. You could hardly expect poor old Jez to be on hols with a 30m tape and/or laser measure secreted in his luggage just in case could you?. Both Jez and Jane put "the spot" in an envelope approx 3500 to 4000 x 1500 with the long side running north south with the NW corner of the envelope being roughly by the gate. Bearing in mind the average human is crap at estimating mass, time and distance that is about as good you will get. Gerry on the other hand makes it an envelope approx 7000 x 1200 with the long side running east west and "the spot" on the NE corner of the envelope on an indeterminate line south of the gate. laters.
What I see is more like drawing done by someone with early onset dementia. I'm really surprised at the state of his handwriting etc, just about unbelievable TBH.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 13, 2017, 09:52:38 PM
I'm not convinced for you have not shown where the pathway is . "the pathway opposite the pool in the Tapas complex." show it on a map please. (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/4aug7/mail-10-08-2007map.gif) Can you see the path here? What is your point in highlighting those words Sadie?
No, the path is just off the map to the right of the image. I don’t have the technical know-how to show it on a map and post it. The reason that I highlighted those words is that i think in his own "language" he is stating that he came out opposite the Tapas Reception after leaving the paths to the east via the little car park
OK Rob, I will try and explain my thoughts, even though I am not good with words and explaining, but here goes.
Using the numbers on the image.
Immediately across the road and to the left of number 3 is what we call the Tapas Reception Immediately below number 3 is what I call the “Little car park”
Jez is confusing to follow and I think that is partly because he has little concept of distance ... but also because he uses different names for places to us... so his language is different.
I am doubtful that he ever used the Tapas Restaurant or Bar, It is quite likely that together, he and Brigette only used the pool and sun bathing terraces around the pool. I am thinking that in their eyes, because to them, together, only using this area they only called it the Pool. That they might talk about that entrance as “The Pool” rather than "The Tapas".
Thinking about myself here hypothetically
If I were hypothetically directing someone locally with our town swimming pool as one of the important reference spots, I personally would not say “go the Swimmiing Pool entrance and then turn left” I would abbreviate this to "go to the Swimming Pool and turn left"
I think that he is referring to the “Tapas Reception” as “The Pool”
I also think that when he refers to "the pathway opposite the pool in the Tapas”, he is referring to the north south footpath (off picture but to the right) that comes out into the “little car park”, which is shown just below number 3
The gate which Gerry left is hidden under number 4 …. And the place that Amaral , Jez and Jane say the Jez/Gerry chat happened is at the entrance to the path/alleyway immediately to the left (west) of the TOP of number 3
In other words, as you can see from the image, the chat took place roughly half way between where Jez was when he first sighted Gerry and where Gerry himself was at that time.
Hope this helps.
AIMHO, but I know that it is possible that I could be wrong.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 13, 2017, 10:05:55 PM
The words ""I have drawn a map of the complex and marked an X where I saw Jerry on Thursday evening ' JW 1. " Is the clue. This is just the spot where he first "saw Gerry" not where they stood and spoke. Both of the men saw each other in a different place than where they stood and spoke. They are both walking and how do you close that distance. If Gerry came out of the gate which direction was he heading? Where was Jez when he first saw Gerry and how did he close that distance?
It would be impossible to come together if they were walking in the same direction. If they were on opposite sides of the road they could meet in the middle. But they are both moving so the final meeting spot is not where they first saw each other unless one stands still.
Sorry Rob, but you are wrong on this.
Three seperate people, Jane, Jez and Amaral have very definitely pointed to the spot by the alleyway as being the spot where Gerry and Jez chatted.
This one of the things that Amaral got right
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 13, 2017, 10:18:10 PM
I don't see the point of going into the minutiae of statements when it is apparent that none of them have identical recollections of the same event.
IMO either you believe Jane Tanner gave her genuine recollection of what happened on her way back to check her children - and that Amaral set out to discredit her version because it didn't suit his agenda for people to believe her. Or you believe Amarals contention that she was not a credible witness and believe his attempts to prove that she wasn't were valid.
AFAIAC Jane Tanner had no reason to lie whilst imo Amaral had every reason at the time to convince the public that she should not be believed.. Why he is still continuing to do that now that crecheman has proved JT was telling the truth is anyone's guess.
If you believe the opposite and that she did have reason to lie and that Amaral is right to try to convince the public that she was not a credible witness - then I am more than happy to hear your reasons why.
AIMHO
Amaral and his team were not the only trained detectives to think Tanner lacked credibility, the McCanns own PIs thought so too prompting them to suggest strenuously that the McCanns follow the Smithman lead rather than the Tanner sighting, a suggestion that in the fullness of time has shown to be absolutely correct.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 10:27:32 PM
Three seperate people, Jane, Jez and Amaral have very definitely pointed to the spot by the alleyway as being the spot where Gerry and Jez chatted.
This one of the things that Amaral got right
I still don't agree. But it may not be able to be sorted, even though it isn't that important to me as long as Jane is not made out to be an unreliable witness.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 10:38:51 PM
No, the path is just off the map to the right of the image. .......
I also think that when he refers to "the pathway opposite the pool in the Tapas”, he is referring to the north south footpath (off picture but to the right) that comes out into the “little car park”, which is shown just below number 3
AIMHO, but I know that it is possible that I could be wrong.
The spot I'm think he refers to " "the pathway opposite the pool in the Tapas complex." is the concrete path on the opposite side of the pool to the Tapas complex. it is the thin whitish strip above the number 1 on the aerial view photo.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 13, 2017, 11:38:41 PM
Mr Amaral himself proves that what Jane and Jez were saying is Correct. They were standing in line with the alleyway. See his recent video
Click on the subtitle icon (bottom right hand side) to turn the English subtitles on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUHp85TyJ0Y
Admin note:
* The above media presentation is provided for discussion purposes * Endorsement of such material is neither intended nor implied
At about 15.54 Amaral points out the EXACT spot where Jez and Gerry were standing chatting. Note the depth of the pavement at that point. About 9 feet
Please make the effort and look
Amaral confirms in a very definite manner exactly where Jez and Gerry were chatting And he is agreeing with Jez and Jane. They were chatting in the roadway/on the kerb just by the alleyway on the west side of Rua Francisco GM
Three of them agreeing, including the Head Honcho. No other proof needed
Jane passed Gerry and Jez, who were chatting by the alleyway in that spot. Here the pavement was about 9 feet deep.
Plenty of passing space
The myth is over. Trashed by Amaral. Thank you Mr Amaral.
Please can we move on?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 13, 2017, 11:46:46 PM
The spot I'm think he refers to " "the pathway opposite the pool in the Tapas complex." is the concrete path on the opposite side of the pool to the Tapas complex. it is the thin whitish strip above the number 1 on the aerial view photo.
Sorry, Rob, but I think that you are totally wrong.
That pathway doesn't tie in with any of the statements or drawings.
Amaral himself has confirmed what Jane and Jez said in his video.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 13, 2017, 11:51:06 PM
Mr Amaral himself proves that what Jane and Jez were saying is Correct. They were standing in line with the alleyway. See his recent video
Click on the subtitle icon (bottom right hand side) to turn the English subtitles on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUHp85TyJ0Y
Admin note:
* The above media presentation is provided for discussion purposes * Endorsement of such material is neither intended nor implied
At about 15.54 Amaral points out the EXACT spot where Jez and Gerry were standing chatting. Note the depth of the pavement at that point. About 9 feet
Please make the effort and look
Amaral confirms in a very definite manner exactly where Jez and Gerry were chatting And he is agreeing with Jez and Jane. They were chatting in the roadway/on the kerb just by the alleyway on the west side of Rua Francisco GM
Three of them agreeing, including the Head Honcho. No other proof needed
Jane passed Gerry and Jez, who were chatting by the alleyway in that spot. Here the pavement was about 9 feet deep.
Plenty of passing space
The myth is over. Trashed by Amaral. Thank you Mr Amaral.
Please can we move on?
Tanner's drawing of where Jez/Gerry were standing.
Amaral and his team were not the only trained detectives to think Tanner lacked credibility, the McCanns own PIs thought so too prompting them to suggest strenuously that the McCanns follow the Smithman lead rather than the Tanner sighting, a suggestion that in the fullness of time has shown to be absolutely correct.
Citation please. I cannot recall any such suggestion that in the fullness of time was shown to be absolutely correct.
You will come up with that Citation, I hope Faith.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 13, 2017, 11:52:37 PM
Sorry, Rob, but I think that you are totally wrong.
That pathway doesn't tie in with any of the statements or drawings.
Amaral himself has confirmed what Jane and Jez said in his video.
That pathway has nothing to do with the drawings I agree, and that is the reason I questioned you as to why you highlighted it in a previous post. It is IMO just a description of the route he took to get back out of the complex prior to even seeing Gerry.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 12:14:39 AM
This was done in situ ... and we can see and hear Jane Tanner verbatim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY
Starting at about 9.40
Jane was on the spot where it happened and she is very definite about the exact place. By the alleyway. Much better than trying to recollect in some office away from the place. IMO it completely over- rides the one done in an office somewhere.
Her recollection in that video and Jezes drawing co-incide with Amarals video where he shows where it happened. Also by the alleyway.
Jezes one description entirely points to that area too and another one where he talks about by "The Pool" also seems to refer to that area
Three people including the head Honcho confirm the same spot.
The spot was by that alleyway where there was plenty of room for Jane to pass ... about 9 feet!
Three agreeing statements would be more than anough in a Court Case, I think ... especially as one was by the Head Honcho
Can we move on please. I haven't the time or energy to keep going over this.
Myth over.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 14, 2017, 12:15:07 AM
Amaral and his team were not the only trained detectives to think Tanner lacked credibility, the McCanns own PIs thought so too prompting them to suggest strenuously that the McCanns follow the Smithman lead rather than the Tanner sighting, a suggestion that in the fullness of time has shown to be absolutely correct.
I think we need to work out whether Amaral thought the Smith's saw someone carrying a live or a dead girl.
Smith rang the PJ, and in an around about way, and implied he thought it was Gerry by the way he was carrying Sean off the plane. Sean was alive so does he suggest the girl was likewise alive? But in the documentary Enigma he seems to say the Smiths saw a man carrying a dead child.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 14, 2017, 12:27:31 AM
This was done in situ ... and we can see and hear Jane Tanner verbatim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY
Starting at about 9.40
Jane was on the spot where it happened and she is very definite about the exact place. By the alleyway. Much better than trying to recollect in some office away from the place. IMO it completely over- rides the one done in an office somewhere.
Her recollection in that video and Jezes drawing co-incide with Amarals video where he shows where it happened. Also by the alleyway.
Jezes one description entirely points to that area too and another one where he talks about by "The Pool" also seems to refer to that area
Three people including the head Honcho confirm the same spot.
The spot was by that alleyway where there was plenty of room for Jane to pass ... about 9 feet!
Three agreeing statements would be more than anough in a Court Case, I think ... especially as one was by the Head Honcho
Can we move on please. I haven't the time or energy to keep going over this.
Myth over.
The documentary was done some years after the event when Tanner's recollection would have been tainted by things she'd learned since ( she admits as much in her rogatory interview). What she recollected on the 4th of May ( when the picture was drawn) will undoubtedly be more accurate than something remembered years later.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 14, 2017, 12:28:19 AM
It depends on how you interpret what Jane has drawn. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_50.jpg)
The cross hatched part are the buildings and the blocks are the car parks. If you read it like I'm suggesting they are very similar. Jane marks where she was when she saw the individual (4) and later where the individual was when she got to the top of the road (8)
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 12:33:33 AM
The mockumentary was done some years after the event when Tanner's recollection would have been tainted by things she'd learned since ( she admits as much in her rogatory interview). What she recollected on the 4th of May ( when the picture was drawn) will undoubtedly be more accurate than something remembered years later.
When she was so distressed? Think again Faith, on this Cutting Edge video she is at the actual place, rather than an anonymous office somewhere sweating and crying her heart out in all probability..
If she was conspiring with the Mccanns (Your quote
Quote
Tanners recollection tainted by things she had learned since
) why did she go so very strongly across Gerry?
She was very definite where the chat took place.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on September 14, 2017, 12:40:50 AM
Amaral hinted that he didn't believe Tanner when she claimed to have walked up the road passing Gerry and Jez before encountering the child-carrying elusive stranger. He suggests she never passed the two men after leaving the mini reception but turned off left and cut along the path in front of the apartments as it was a shortcut to her apartment. He reasons that this is why neither man saw Tanner pass them and why Tanner never saw an open window and shutter at 5a. He also suggests that Tanner may have seen a man carrying a child from her north facing balcony window while she was minding her sick daughter, a man whom SY now suggest was probably an innocent tourist.
According to Amaral, the McC's weren't the only ones to have left their patio door unlocked to facilitate access from that path.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Bal.png)
The apartments occupied by the McCanns, Oldfield and Tanner all had patio access to the path which runs along in front of the apartments.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 12:55:27 AM
Amaral hinted that he didn't believe Tanner when she claimed to have walked up the road passing Gerry and Jez before encountering the child-carrying elusive stranger. He thinks she never passed the two men but turned off left and cut along the path in front of the apartments as a short cut. This he suggests explains why neither man admited to seeing Tanner pass them and why Tanner never saw an open window and shutter at 5a.
He also claims that the McC's weren't the only ones to have left their patio door unlocked to facilitate access from that path.
Why did they all walk around the front then? Jane is a very plucky woman but no woman would want to walk along an unlit alleyway at night.
Amarals main purpose after the first few hours was to try to prove that The parents were responsible. In his O Enigma video he actually points out the place that Gerry and Jez were chatting. It is on the very corner of the alleyway where he said (you say) that Jane was walking up to the patio door of her flat, so she had to pass them anyway. His argument doesn't hold water.
He seems to me to just be trying to prove that there was no abductor, in order to further his theory, or what?
AIMHO #
Nigh Night
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on September 14, 2017, 01:02:50 AM
The path doesn't look too dark to me. Haven't you already claimed that the patio and path were well lit by the street lamp?
Why did they all walk around the front then? Jane is a very plucky woman but no woman would want to walk along an unlit alleyway at night.
Amarals main purpose after the first few hours was to try to prove that The parents were responsible. In his O Enigma video he actually points out the place that Gerry and Jez were chatting. It is on the very corner of the alleyway where he said (you say) that Jane was walking up to the patio door of her flat, so she had to pass them anyway. His argument doesn't hold water.
He seems to me to just be trying to prove that there was no abductor, in order to further his theory, or what?
AIMHO #
Nigh Night
Jane doesn't place them at the corner but half way between the corner and the gate to 5a. That would correspond with what Jez Wilkins also stated.
The two GNR policemen who first attended the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared also had grave doubts as to whether there had been an abduction. The evidence just didn't point to it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 14, 2017, 01:10:09 AM
When she was so distressed? Think again Faith, on this Cutting Edge video she is at the actual place, rather than an anonymous office somewhere sweating and crying her heart out in all probability..
If she was conspiring with the Mccanns (Your quote) why did she go so very strongly across Gerry?
She was very definite where the chat took place.
Tanner admitted in her rogatory interview that what she remembered about the child she saw may have been coloured by what she learned later. This doesn't mean I suggested she was conspiring with the McCanns I was simply repeating her thoughts.
Tanner's first recollections, as with everyone else, would have been the most accurate, uncoloured as it were by later knowledge. This is why the police consider them the most valuable in terms of evidence.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on September 14, 2017, 01:13:45 AM
Tanner admitted in her rogatory interview that what she remembered about the child she saw may have been coloured by what she learned later. This doesn't mean I suggested she was conspiring with the McCanns I was simply repeating her thoughts.
Tanner's first recollections, as with everyone else, would have been the most accurate, uncoloured as it were by later knowledge. This is why the police consider them the most valuable in terms of evidence.
Which is why Amaral was so suspicious when GM changed his story about which door he used to gain access to 5a.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 14, 2017, 03:17:08 AM
Amaral hinted that he didn't believe Tanner when she claimed to have walked up the road passing Gerry and Jez before encountering the child-carrying elusive stranger. He suggests she never passed the two men after leaving the mini reception but turned off left and cut along the path in front of the apartments as it was a shortcut to her apartment. He reasons that this is why neither man saw Tanner pass them and why Tanner never saw an open window and shutter at 5a. He also suggests that Tanner may have seen a man carrying a child from her north facing balcony window while she was minding her sick daughter, a man whom SY now suggest was probably an innocent tourist.
According to Amaral, the McC's weren't the only ones to have left their patio door unlocked to facilitate access from that path.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Bal.png)
The apartments occupied by the McCanns, Oldfield and Tanner all had patio access to the path which runs along in front of the apartments.
It is amazing how Amaral can rewrite everyone's statements. It is only shorter that way if the apartments were all accessible through the patio doors. I think they all say they used keys and their front doors (except for the McCanns).
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 05:10:59 AM
Jane doesn't place them at the corner but half way between the corner and the gate to 5a. That would correspond with what Jez Wilkins also stated.
The two GNR policemen who first attended the McCanns on the night Madeleine disappeared also had grave doubts as to whether there had been an abduction. The evidence just didn't point to it.
Please do me the honour of watching the relevant part of this video Angelo, instead of ignoring it.
This was done in situ ... and we can see and hear Jane Tanner verbatim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY
Starting at about 9.40. Jane is understandably upset and angry with Gerry
You will notice that Jane was looking at the spot where it happened and she very deliberately moved down to the spot where Gerry and Jez were chatting. She is very definite about the exact place. By the alleyway. Much better than trying to recollect in some office away from the place. IMO it completely over- rides the one done in an office somewhere.
And Amaral agrees with her in his video. Jez also agrees with her, both on a plan and in his testimony.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 14, 2017, 06:26:23 AM
Sadie - you would have to agree that that video is rather supportive of the McCanns. They use the word abduction etc. https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=553 they describe the checking of the children "as taking turns to do half hourly check on each other's children". Now I presume that does not imply they were going into all the apartments every half hour but doing a listening check from the outside for any crying. This goes in the face of Mrs Fenn's statement, unless the crying was heard but it took another half hour for a response to arrive. (some say the group went to Chaplins Bar on the Tuesday).
So basically Gerry describes quite a feasible reaction to seeing someone across the road from his apartment. He goes over to check to see who it was. Ok it was Jez, and he relaxes again. But what would motivate Jez to march over toward Gerry?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 14, 2017, 06:39:51 AM
Jane walks on from where she passed Jez and Gerry and describes where she was when she saw the person carrying the child. This fits in pretty well with the diagram she drew on the 4th.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 14, 2017, 06:49:50 AM
Is this image at this location https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=683 suppose to represent Gerry and Jez talking on the opposite side of the road to Jane? It has the word's "Jane Tanner's witness statement" on it but Jane never said they were across the other side of the road.
The image at this spot is not accurate either as Jane describes the child as limp. and here the legs are toned. https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=718
At https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=761 they tell a new variation of the truth . Matthew only had to look into his own and the McCann's not "all the children". It shows Matt coming from the Tapas and then going into the McCann's apartment. This is not the order described in his statement. He does his apartment first in his statement.
https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=800 Gerry: "At no point other than that night did I stick my head in..." That is quite an admission don't you think?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 09:42:03 AM
Sadie - you would have to agree that that video is rather supportive of the McCanns. They use the word abduction etc. https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=553 they describe the checking of the children "as taking turns to do half hourly check on each other's children". Now I presume that does not imply they were going into all the apartments every half hour but doing a listening check from the outside for any crying. This goes in the face of Mrs Fenn's statement, unless the crying was heard but it took another half hour for a response to arrive. (some say the group went to Chaplins Bar on the Tuesday).
If Kate and Gerry KNOW that they were not involved and they KNOW that Madeleine was incapable of opening the window and opening the shutter .. and also incapable of leaving the apartment by any of the routes mentioned why shouldn't they use the word "abducted"?
Using ANY word BUT "abducted" is an invention of this forum + possibly other Mccann opposing forums. Everyone else uses the word. SY use the word "abducted".
They were doing half hour checks, even Amaral basically believes that. Mrs Fenn was an old woman. Most people of her age have hearing difficulties. If she was more ddeaf in one ear than the other, she would,nt have a clue which direction the crying came from and there were other children adjacent and nearby. Had one of the Mccann children been crying that long and hard, all three would have been at it. She only heard one. Therefore it wasn't any of thev Mccann children IMHO
Chaplins Bar is another myth to beat The Mccanns with .... and pretend that they were a long way away
We ate there. It is a restaurant, which was packed when we went there.
The waiters and others say that The Mccanns ate every night in the Tapas restaurant, other than the first night when they ate at the Millenium. With all due respect, you are listening to too many people who like to spread myths ... and watching too many HideHo videos
So basically Gerry describes quite a feasible reaction to seeing someone across the road from his apartment. He goes over to check to see who it was. Ok it was Jez, and he relaxes again. But what would motivate Jez to march over toward Gerry?
You are not thinking that Gerry was involved now are you Rob, because the way you have worded that sounds like you might be?
Seems Gerry probably met Jez in the middle of the road and started their chat there. A vehicle was coming, so they backed the way the pram was pointing. that is to the kerb on the west side of the road. THere were cars etc parked there (Stephen Carpenters statement) and they slotted themselves between them to protect themselves. I cant see Jez still standing in the road if the pram was exposed to danger.
That is how I see it, but maybe it goes against YOUR theory cos I cant understand that you are not taking on board the fact that three lots of different people have very definitely pointed to Gerry and Jez being by the Alleyway.
IMO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2017, 09:53:44 AM
If Kate and Gerry KNOW that they were not involved and they KNOW that Madeleine was incapable of opening the window and opening the shutter .. and also incapable of leaving the apartment by any of the routes mentioned why shouldn't they use the word "abducted"?
Using ANY word BUT "abducted" is an invention of this forum + possibly other Mccann opposing forums. Everyone else uses the word. SY use the word "abducted".
They were doing half hour checks, even Amaral basically believes that. Mrs Fenn was an old woman. Most people of her age have hearing difficulties. If she was more ddeaf in one ear than the other, she would,nt have a clue which direction the crying came from and there were other children adjacent and nearby. Had one of the Mccann children been crying that long and hard, all three would have been at it. She only heard one. Therefore it wasn't any of thev Mccann children IMHO
Chaplins Bar is another myth to beat The Mccanns with .... and pretend that they were a long way away
We ate there. It is a restaurant, which was packed when we went there.
The waiters and others say that The Mccanns ate every night in the Tapas restaurant, other than the first night when they ate at the Millenium. With all due respect, you are listening to too many people who like to spread myths ... and watching too many HideHo videos
You are not thinking that Gerry was involved now are you Rob, because the way you have worded that sounds like you might be?
Seems Gerry probably met Jez in the middle of the road and started their chat there. A vehicle was coming, so they backed the way the pram was pointing. that is to the kerb on the west side of the road. THere were cars etc parked there (Stephen Carpenters statement) and they slotted themselves between them to protect themselves. I cant see Jez still standing in the road if the pram was exposed to danger.
That is how I see it, but maybe it goes against YOUR theory cos I cant understand that you are not taking on board the fact that three lots of different people have very definitely pointed to Gerry and Jez being by the Alleyway.
IMO
You have no idea who was involved in Madeleine's disappearance, if anyone was, of course.
Merely, your unsubstantiated pointers.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 14, 2017, 10:16:53 AM
If Kate and Gerry KNOW that they were not involved and they KNOW that Madeleine was incapable of opening the window and opening the shutter .. and also incapable of leaving the apartment by any of the routes mentioned why shouldn't they use the word "abducted"?
Using ANY word BUT "abducted" is an invention of this forum + possibly other Mccann opposing forums. Everyone else uses the word. SY use the word "abducted".
They were doing half hour checks, even Amaral basically believes that. Mrs Fenn was an old woman. Most people of her age have hearing difficulties. If she was more ddeaf in one ear than the other, she would,nt have a clue which direction the crying came from and there were other children adjacent and nearby. Had one of the Mccann children been crying that long and hard, all three would have been at it. She only heard one. Therefore it wasn't any of thev Mccann children IMHO
Chaplins Bar is another myth to beat The Mccanns with .... and pretend that they were a long way away
We ate there. It is a restaurant, which was packed when we went there.
The waiters and others say that The Mccanns ate every night in the Tapas restaurant, other than the first night when they ate at the Millenium. With all due respect, you are listening to too many people who like to spread myths ... and watching too many HideHo videos
You are not thinking that Gerry was involved now are you Rob, because the way you have worded that sounds like you might be?
Seems Gerry probably met Jez in the middle of the road and started their chat there. A vehicle was coming, so they backed the way the pram was pointing. that is to the kerb on the west side of the road. THere were cars etc parked there (Stephen Carpenters statement) and they slotted themselves between them to protect themselves. I cant see Jez still standing in the road if the pram was exposed to danger.
That is how I see it, but maybe it goes against YOUR theory cos I cant understand that you are not taking on board the fact that three lots of different people have very definitely pointed to Gerry and Jez being by the Alleyway.
IMO
The important word in that first sentence is 'if' in my opinion.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 10:28:48 AM
The important word in that first sentence is 'if' in my opinion.
Of course they KNOW if they were involved ... and more than anyone else in the World, they KNOW if Madeleine was capable of doing all the things that some of you ascribe to her. Because of her height and weight, she is mechanically disadvantaged to do several of the things that are ascribed to her.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 10:32:48 AM
Which is why Amaral was so suspicious when GM changed his story about which door he used to gain access to 5a.
If Gerry changing his statement about the doors was of any importance - especially if it raised suspicions with the PJ - then surely the reason he gave for changing it would have been recorded in detail in his statement. On the other hand if the reason was to correct a misunderstanding by the PJ officer or the interpreter - then IMO that may be something which the PJ may not have been particularly inclined to advertise IMO.
However, there is no mention whatsoever of the reason Gerry gave - which imo Amaral has used to his own advantage in the same way he used the lack of a witness statement by JT to his own advantage when he wrongly claimed in his book that she had ''formally'' identified Murat as the man she saw on 3rd May. She did no such thing - but the reason why he could say that she did - was because there was no witness statement by JT to prove him wrong. Similarly - there is no witness statement from Gerry giving his reason for correcting his previous statement to prevent Amaral from inferring that his change of statement was suspicious.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 14, 2017, 10:44:36 AM
If Gerry changing his statement about the doors was of any importance - especially if it raised suspicions with the PJ - then surely the reason he gave for changing it would have been recorded in detail in his statement. On the other hand if the reason was to correct a misunderstanding by the PJ officer or the interpreter - then IMO that may be something which the PJ may not have been particularly inclined to advertise IMO.
However, there is no mention whatsoever of the reason Gerry gave - which imo Amaral has used to his own advantage in the same way he used the lack of a witness statement by JT to his own advantage when he wrongly claimed in his book that she had ''formally'' identified Murat as the man she saw on 3rd May. She did no such thing - but the reason why he could say that she did - was because there was no witness statement by JT to prove him wrong. Similarly - there is no witness statement from Gerry giving his reason for correcting his previous statement to prevent Amaral from inferring that his change of statement was suspicious.
AIMHO
This was the reason Gerry gave...'Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.'
Don't you think if it was the PJ/translator who had made a mistake Gerry would have said so ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on September 14, 2017, 10:45:32 AM
Is this image at this location https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=683 suppose to represent Gerry and Jez talking on the opposite side of the road to Jane? It has the word's "Jane Tanner's witness statement" on it but Jane never said they were across the other side of the road.
The image at this spot is not accurate either as Jane describes the child as limp. and here the legs are toned. https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=718
At https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=761 they tell a new variation of the truth . Matthew only had to look into his own and the McCann's not "all the children". It shows Matt coming from the Tapas and then going into the McCann's apartment. This is not the order described in his statement. He does his apartment first in his statement.
https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=800 Gerry: "At no point other than that night did I stick my head in..." That is quite an admission don't you think?
Isn't it interesting that they would take part in a fictitional documentary controlled by their paid puppet yet never took part in an official reconstruction where the questions wouldn't have been so comfortable?
Once a detective establishes doubt in anyone's version of events he is entitled to pursue his suspicions further.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 14, 2017, 10:52:09 AM
If Gerry changing his statement about the doors was of any importance - especially if it raised suspicions with the PJ - then surely the reason he gave for changing it would have been recorded in detail in his statement. On the other hand if the reason was to correct a misunderstanding by the PJ officer or the interpreter - then IMO that may be something which the PJ may not have been particularly inclined to advertise IMO.
However, there is no mention whatsoever of the reason Gerry gave - which imo Amaral has used to his own advantage in the same way he used the lack of a witness statement by JT to his own advantage when he wrongly claimed in his book that she had ''formally'' identified Murat as the man she saw on 3rd May. She did no such thing - but the reason why he could say that she did - was because there was no witness statement by JT to prove him wrong. Similarly - there is no witness statement from Gerry giving his reason for correcting his previous statement to prevent Amaral from inferring that his change of statement was suspicious.
AIMHO
My theory: Gerry used his key on that check but that didn't tally with an unlocked patio door so it had to be changed. The key would be used for two reasons:
1. The patio door was in fact locked at that time.
2. The front key door became the nearest entrance. If so, how? My theory explains how it became the nearest entrance.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 11:03:13 AM
referring to the white blobs that look like lights on your photo Angelo
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/CaroleTranmer-gate.jpg) I have magnified this photo x 200, but am unable to post the magnified image. I see no lamps, or lights, on here
(http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1897790.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200/Madeleine-McCann-and-Praia-Da-Luz-Ocean-Club-Resort.jpg) Nor on this very clear image. No lights (white blobs) on here
(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/secondary/maddie-503790.jpg) Getting dark and I see no sign of any lights along the alleyway here. This image clearly shows how the Mccann apartment patio area was illuminated by the street lamp opposite
(http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/AG/Extras_do_livro_Page_5.jpg) Pitch black down that Alleyway
Have magnified this x 300 and no signs of lighting here either
(http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/fl/4927869060_d29b36779c_z.jpg) No lights visible here and a high wall an the left, the tapas side. I would think that the alleyway would be extremely dark at night. I remember it as being totally dark
(http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/officer-stan-9167.jpg) view from the balcony that i call the watchers balcony. Allowing for perspective, see how much higher that alleyway wall is relative to the policeman.
It would be VERY dark along there and IMO no woman would feel safe walking along there on her own.
IMO, the photo you show has probably been photo-shopped, the white lighting has been added. That is unless the lights are affixed to the alleyway wall on the tapas side. I cant pick them out on Google earth. If affixed there, they would cast no light over the walkway or the apartments. Almost pitch black along that alleyway Angelo. Creepy.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 14, 2017, 11:13:33 AM
Hard to see somebody on that road NOT. The evidence seems to indicate that Jane avoided Gerry and turned left (Jez was facing the side gate and Gerry facing him so they were not looking up or down the road) and took the other route back.
4078 “Okay. And what did you think of them at that stage?”
Reply “Yeah they were nice, normal people, yeah you know, sort of, that’s the thing, I mean Gerry, the sort of person Gerry is, I could never see us being best buddies because he’s very, we’re very different. I think he’s very err he’s quite forthright and so I don’t think we’d ever be best friends but there’s no problem there or anything like that you know, I feel bad saying that because it makes it sound like there is a problem but there’s not but you know it’s not, whereas Kate I was really, I was getting to know Kate quite well but yeah I think Gerry is sort of like more of a man’s man maybe.”
Hard to see somebody on that road NOT. The evidence seems to indicate that Jane avoided Gerry and turned left (Jez was facing the side gate and Gerry facing him so they were not looking up or down the road) and took the other route back.
4078 “Okay. And what did you think of them at that stage?”
Reply “Yeah they were nice, normal people, yeah you know, sort of, that’s the thing, I mean Gerry, the sort of person Gerry is, I could never see us being best buddies because he’s very, we’re very different. I think he’s very err he’s quite forthright and so I don’t think we’d ever be best friends but there’s no problem there or anything like that you know, I feel bad saying that because it makes it sound like there is a problem but there’s not but you know it’s not, whereas Kate I was really, I was getting to know Kate quite well but yeah I think Gerry is sort of like more of a man’s man maybe.”
If a big van such as the one that a man, whose name I forget, was sleeping in was one of the vehicles parked along there (Stephen Carpenters statement) and it was close and between that street lamp and Gerry and Jez, the area would be in shadow and pretty dark.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 14, 2017, 11:28:02 AM
If a big van such as the one that a man, whose name I forget, was sleeping in was one of the vehicles parked along there (Stephen Carpenters statement) and it was close and between that street lamp and Gerry and Jez, the area would be in shadow and pretty dark.
4078 “Were there any cars around there?”
Reply “Erm, umm, no, I don’t know. I don’t remember. I don’t remember walking past any going up here and I think I would have probably, if there had been I would have realised, because that would have obscured my view of the person walking, so I can’t think of, I can’t think of any, no”.
"I do not remember having seen her when I spoke with Gerry, but I believe I saw her when I first ventured out. She was stopped on the street in front of one of the group's apartments when I passed her down towards the exit to my apartment."
Reply “Erm, umm, no, I don’t know. I don’t remember. I don’t remember walking past any going up here and I think I would have probably, if there had been I would have realised, because that would have obscured my view of the person walking, so I can’t think of, I can’t think of any, no”.
"I do not remember having seen her when I spoke with Gerry, but I believe I saw her when I first ventured out. She was stopped on the street in front of one of the group's apartments when I passed her down towards the exit to my apartment."
This was the reason Gerry gave...'Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because] they had left by the rear door.'
Don't you think if it was the PJ/translator who had made a mistake Gerry would have said so ?
How do we know that he didn't? IMO he did - as he must have explained to the PJ the reason WHY he wanted changes made to his previous statement. That's just common sense. The above statement is not verbatim and is only a summarised version - so we have no idea of what discussion took place regarding this subject.
I cannot believe that any police officer worth his salt would NOT have asked him for an explanation as to why he wanted to change his previous statement if Gerry had not already explained why. The fact that his reason for wanting to change his statement is not recorded says it all IMO.
Re your first para above. Those are the changes Gerry made, they do not give the reason why he made them.
AIMHO
.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 14, 2017, 11:45:31 AM
His wife heard somebody calling for Madeleine? What time did the Carpenters leave? Russell did not see any parked cars when he left to check at 21:25.
"I didn’t see any cars parked or anyone standing around or loitering." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
The place is full of cars. That would only make sense if you knew exactly where he was talking about. I didn’t see any cars parked [where?] or anyone standing around or loitering [where?]."
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on September 14, 2017, 12:13:42 PM
It would be VERY dark along there and IMO no woman would feel safe walking along there on her own.
IMO, the photo you show has probably been photo-shopped, the white lighting has been added. That is unless the lights are affixed to the alleyway wall on the tapas side. I cant pick them out on Google earth. If affixed there, they would cast no light over the walkway or the apartments. Almost pitch black along that alleyway Angelo. Creepy.
AIMHO
You raise some excellent points Sadie about the lights. The white 'blobs' which you referred to are in fact lights attached to the garden boundary wall (see photo below) and would not shed any light on the path behind. However, if you look carefully at thgec photo you will see that the individual apartments have patio lights one of which at 5H is clearly lit. I believe the Paynes used that apartment so undoubtedly left the patio light on each evening.
You have no evidence to substantiate your assertion that no woman would walk along that alley because it was dark. It is merely your opinion.
If Kate and Gerry KNOW that they were not involved and they KNOW that Madeleine was incapable of opening the window and opening the shutter .. and also incapable of leaving the apartment by any of the routes mentioned why shouldn't they use the word "abducted"?
.....
That is how I see it, but maybe it goes against YOUR theory cos I cant understand that you are not taking on board the fact that three lots of different people have very definitely pointed to Gerry and Jez being by the Alleyway.
IMO
There was nothing stopping Madeleine exiting the front door, it wasn't locked. Which means Jez crossed the road and confronted Gerry. Why would he do that?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Angelo222 on September 14, 2017, 12:42:25 PM
There was nothing stopping Madeleine exiting the front door, it wasn't locked. Which means Jez crossed the road and confronted Gerry. Why would he do that?
For a chat silly. That's what people do on holiday when they are bored.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 14, 2017, 02:33:38 PM
The place is full of cars. That would only make sense if you knew exactly where he was talking about. I didn’t see any cars parked [where?] or anyone standing around or loitering [where?]."
On that road when he left to check at 21:25.
"I got up and Matt, erm, said ‘Oh I’ll come and do a check as well’. So me and Matt walked back to the, to the, erm, to the flats, erm, this would have been about, about kind of twenty-five past nine, I suppose. Erm, and as we, you know, it will probably come back to, but as you asked me the other day, I didn’t certainly notice anything particularly strange or different, I didn’t see any cars parked or anyone standing around or loitering. "
You don't know what time the Carpenters left. He didn't know - only guessed. No parked cars on the route back when Gerry/Jez/Jane left nor at 21:25 according to Russell.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 14, 2017, 03:39:23 PM
Of course they KNOW if they were involved ... and more than anyone else in the World, they KNOW if Madeleine was capable of doing all the things that some of you ascribe to her. Because of her height and weight, she is mechanically disadvantaged to do several of the things that are ascribed to her.
They do indeed know, but you don't. You only know what they say.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 14, 2017, 04:07:11 PM
How do we know that he didn't? IMO he did - as he must have explained to the PJ the reason WHY he wanted changes made to his previous statement. That's just common sense. The above statement is not verbatim and is only a summarised version - so we have no idea of what discussion took place regarding this subject.
I cannot believe that any police officer worth his salt would NOT have asked him for an explanation as to why he wanted to change his previous statement if Gerry had not already explained why. The fact that his reason for wanting to change his statement is not recorded says it all IMO.
Re your first para above. Those are the changes Gerry made, they do not give the reason why he made them.
AIMHO
.
Gerry signed the statement. Surely if he had been misrepresented he wouldn't have?
The questions the PJ should or shouldn't have asked are irrelevant.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2017, 04:44:43 PM
I think it is worth bearing in mind that O Enigma is a portrayal of an opinion ... or if preferred, a thesis based on personal knowledge gained between May 2007 and September 2007.
It features decisions to make three persons arguidos against whom the Policia Judiciaria subsequently found there was no case to answer.
Therefore a conclusion reached was based on a premise which was later proved unfounded ... and that is O Enigma.
In my opinion ~ a cop using media to do what he was unable to do because there was no evidence at all backing up his suspicions. I have no doubt there is indeed an enigma ... just not the one he is selling.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2017, 05:44:42 PM
I think it is worth bearing in mind that O Enigma is a portrayal of an opinion ... or if preferred, a thesis based on personal knowledge gained between May 2007 and September 2007.
It features decisions to make three persons arguidos against whom the Policia Judiciaria subsequently found there was no case to answer.
Therefore a conclusion reached was based on a premise which was later proved unfounded ... and that is O Enigma.
In my opinion ~ a cop using media to do what he was unable to do because there was no evidence at all backing up his suspicions. I have no doubt there is indeed an enigma ... just not the one he is selling.
That is your opinion not reflected by fact therefore you should say as much. The inquiry was filed because it was not possible to determine whether or not there was a case to be answered.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 09:10:25 PM
"I got up and Matt, erm, said ‘Oh I’ll come and do a check as well’. So me and Matt walked back to the, to the, erm, to the flats, erm, this would have been about, about kind of twenty-five past nine, I suppose. Erm, and as we, you know, it will probably come back to, but as you asked me the other day, I didn’t certainly notice anything particularly strange or different, I didn’t see any cars parked or anyone standing around or loitering. "
So the car wasn't there then the one the manger talked about. "When he arrived there, by vehicle, at around 21:10, he remembers that next to the Tapas reception, he saw a vehicle, dark blue in colour, with Portuguese license plates. Although he cannot be definite, he believes it was a Fiesta or Focus. The deponent furthers that is was not a small car, and for this reason it could very well have been a Focus and not a Fiesta. He tells that he does not remember any sticker indicating that it was a rental car. Inside the vehicle he saw no one. " http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 14, 2017, 09:49:58 PM
You don't know what time the Carpenters left. He didn't know - only guessed. No parked cars on the route back when Gerry/Jez/Jane left nor at 21:25 according to Russell.
Why would they be remembering if there were cars?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2017, 09:52:35 PM
How does all this have relevance since that nice DCI Andy greased Tannerman?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 14, 2017, 09:54:35 PM
We don't believe him entirely for he was almost certain.
Almost certain of what? Almost certain that they had identified the man or almost certain he was not the alleged abductor? Why do you not believe him? He works for probably the best police investigation force in the world.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 10:21:02 PM
So the car wasn't there then the one the manger talked about. "When he arrived there, by vehicle, at around 21:10, he remembers that next to the Tapas reception, he saw a vehicle, dark blue in colour, with Portuguese license plates. Although he cannot be definite, he believes it was a Fiesta or Focus. The deponent furthers that is was not a small car, and for this reason it could very well have been a Focus and not a Fiesta. He tells that he does not remember any sticker indicating that it was a rental car. Inside the vehicle he saw no one. " http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm
Thankyou Rob
I also seem to remember, along with this and Stephen Carpenters statement about cars being along the road that a man, whose name evades me, was sleeping inhis van along that stretch of road. Was he a musician? I cant remember.
And a girl who was visiting her boyfriend, noted IIRC some cars along there.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 14, 2017, 10:22:57 PM
We don't believe him entirely for he was almost certain.
I cant help wondering if "innocent man" was a Red Herring that SY fell for. So much about that guy doesn't make sense to me .... but then I might be wrong
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 14, 2017, 10:31:11 PM
Almost certain of what? Almost certain that they had identified the man or almost certain he was not the alleged abductor? Why do you not believe him? He works for probably the best police investigation force in the world.
Poor Redwood. He seemed so pleased with his 'interesting and exciting information' and 'revelation moment' allowing his clock to tick away from Tannerman and towards Smithman; who had now become 'the centre of our focus' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 14, 2017, 10:32:11 PM
Almost certain of what? Almost certain that they had identified the man or almost certain he was not the alleged abductor? Why do you not believe him? He works for probably the best police investigation force in the world.
Well I believe his certain bits but not his almost certain bits. They were almost certain than the Tanner sighting was this creche dad. But there are so many questions unanswered it never convinced me.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 14, 2017, 10:38:15 PM
Poor Redwood. He seemed so pleased with his 'interesting and exciting information' and 'revelation moment' allowing his clock to tick away from Tannerman and towards Smithman; who had now become 'the centre of our focus' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y
https://youtu.be/OZ8jmdWlB8Y?t=1151 to go to the exact spot
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 15, 2017, 01:37:39 AM
Well I believe his certain bits but not his almost certain bits. They were almost certain than the Tanner sighting was this creche dad. But there are so many questions unanswered it never convinced me.
One question I would like answered is where he had been to have ended up walking in the opposite direction from the creche when Jane saw him?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 15, 2017, 02:38:10 AM
One question I would like answered is where he had been to have ended up walking in the opposite direction from the creche when Jane saw him?
More pertinent than that I think is why none of the nannies on duty at the creche that night recognised the description of a man who had picked up his daughter from them or remembered caring for a little girl with frilly-bottomed pyjamas.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 15, 2017, 05:41:28 AM
More pertinent than that I think is why none of the nannies on duty at the creche that night recognised the description of a man who had picked up his daughter from them or remembered caring for a little girl with frilly-bottomed pyjamas.
The time he signs for his child, how does that compare to the time of Jane's observation are also important considerations. There isn't a lot of time variation available with the first check.
Unless the sighting actually becomes Jez later picking up his daughter at a time after he had taken the younger son back home, and it being Jane's second return to her apartment, the one as late as 9:40 - 9:45 PM or something like that. I won't be happy until they gives us all the details that are claimed by the "innocent father".
Remember Jane takes two walks back to the apartment that night, and Jez seems to have this tendency to take convoluted walks at night maybe it is Jane seeing him on the second visit, and that being the reason Jez and Gerry don't see her pass them on Jane's earlier visit to the apartment.
Sorry about that but that was the first time I've said that. Still a bit raw. I hope you understand this never before spoken proposal. https://youtu.be/OZ8jmdWlB8Y?t=980 Hit this link to go straight to the relevant section.
But I think there is a big mistake in this proposal as at this point the information is that the daughter being picked up by innocent man was only 2 years old. From what I remember from previous discussions was that the pyjamas shown as supposedly the ones worn that night seemed too big for a 3 year old and now more so for a two year old.
https://youtu.be/OZ8jmdWlB8Y?t=1300
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 15, 2017, 06:03:15 AM
The compere " So what you are saying is the timeline we've been working on for years is wrong" Not just who it could be but the timeline as well. Did I get that right?
I would love to see the OG timeline.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 15, 2017, 06:10:21 AM
Does Goncalo Amaral say anything about the two e-fits produced for the one man?
He certainly says a lot of things that I'm sure are not in the file released as part of the archiving process.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 15, 2017, 06:44:02 AM
Is he saying the secreting of the cadaver into the coffin in the church didn't happen until mid July? https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=3194
I'm sure that is what he is saying so the McCanns in his theory hid the body right up to mid -July. There is no proof that these "Three people" were associated with the McCanns.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: slartibartfast on September 15, 2017, 05:42:18 PM
I also seem to remember, along with this and Stephen Carpenters statement about cars being along the road that a man, whose name evades me, was sleeping inhis van along that stretch of road. Was he a musician? I cant remember.
And a girl who was visiting her boyfriend, noted IIRC some cars along there.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Please provide cites otherwise remove this post.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 15, 2017, 06:04:54 PM
Is he saying the secreting of the cadaver into the coffin in the church didn't happen until mid July? https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=3194
I'm sure that is what he is saying so the McCanns in his theory hid the body right up to mid -July. There is no proof that these "Three people" were associated with the McCanns.
"in the month of July 2007, I began to notice a strange odour in the car." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/A-J-CAMERON.htm
The open boot witness was also July 2007.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 15, 2017, 06:39:08 PM
I also seem to remember, along with this and Stephen Carpenters statement about cars being along the road that a man, whose name evades me, was sleeping inhis van along that stretch of road. Was he a musician? I cant remember.
And a girl who was visiting her boyfriend, noted IIRC some cars along there.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
There was someone like that mentioned in the file IIRC. I am noticing there are some witnesses that hardly ever get a mention and hence are quite unknown and harder to memorise IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 15, 2017, 06:55:27 PM
There was someone like that mentioned in the file IIRC. I am noticing there are some witnesses that hardly ever get a mention and hence are quite unknown and harder to memorise IMO.
Barrington Norton slept in his van on the mound. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BARRINGTON_NORTON.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 15, 2017, 09:51:22 PM
At about 20.00 he would have dinner in the Penini Restaurant or another international restaurant nearby, both in P da L, or go to the Baptista supermarket in the OC.
Then he would eat his food in a P da L parking area.
and,
When asked if he would regularly to the OC resort, he replied that he did, adding that he often went to the Baptista supermarket in the resort.
He mentioned that, during the previous week, he cannot remember the exact days or times, he went to the resort another three times, for different reasons than those mentioned previously, once to hand in his CV and the other two times, to be with friends who were on holiday there.
and
When asked where he would park, he said he would generally park near the Baptista supermarket. When asked if he had ever parked in the street next to the apartment Madeleine had disappeared from, he replied that he had once, as far as he remembers, after her disappearance, that apartment being near to the Baptista supermarket.
I want to make it clear that I do not suspect Barrington of anything ... BUT his van could have been parked near the alleyway and Gerry and Jez could have been chatting away at the side of it and it might have cast a mighty shadow over the alleyway entrance where Jane walked past. Not likely but a possibility that should lie on the table. IMO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: slartibartfast on September 15, 2017, 10:13:01 PM
At about 20.00 he would have dinner in the Penini Restaurant or another international restaurant nearby, both in P da L, or go to the Baptista supermarket in the OC.
Then he would eat his food in a P da L parking area.
and,
When asked if he would regularly to the OC resort, he replied that he did, adding that he often went to the Baptista supermarket in the resort.
He mentioned that, during the previous week, he cannot remember the exact days or times, he went to the resort another three times, for different reasons than those mentioned previously, once to hand in his CV and the other two times, to be with friends who were on holiday there.
and
When asked where he would park, he said he would generally park near the Baptista supermarket. When asked if he had ever parked in the street next to the apartment Madeleine had disappeared from, he replied that he had once, as far as he remembers, after her disappearance, that apartment being near to the Baptista supermarket.
I want to make it clear that I do not suspect Barrington of anything ... BUT his van could have been parked near the alleyway and Gerry and Jez could have been chatting away at the side of it and it might have cast a mighty shadow over the alleyway entrance where Jane walked past. Not likely but a possibility that should lie on the table. IMO
Highly unlikely as no witnesses reported it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 15, 2017, 10:20:19 PM
At about 20.00 he would have dinner in the Penini Restaurant or another international restaurant nearby, both in P da L, or go to the Baptista supermarket in the OC.
Then he would eat his food in a P da L parking area.
and,
When asked if he would regularly to the OC resort, he replied that he did, adding that he often went to the Baptista supermarket in the resort.
He mentioned that, during the previous week, he cannot remember the exact days or times, he went to the resort another three times, for different reasons than those mentioned previously, once to hand in his CV and the other two times, to be with friends who were on holiday there.
and
When asked where he would park, he said he would generally park near the Baptista supermarket. When asked if he had ever parked in the street next to the apartment Madeleine had disappeared from, he replied that he had once, as far as he remembers, after her disappearance, that apartment being near to the Baptista supermarket.
I want to make it clear that I do not suspect Barrington of anything ... BUT his van could have been parked near the alleyway and Gerry and Jez could have been chatting away at the side of it and it might have cast a mighty shadow over the alleyway entrance where Jane walked past. Not likely but a possibility that should lie on the table. IMO
If ifs and buts were beer and nuts we'd have ourselves a party.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 15, 2017, 10:28:53 PM
More pertinent than that I think is why none of the nannies on duty at the creche that night recognised the description of a man who had picked up his daughter from them or remembered caring for a little girl with frilly-bottomed pyjamas.
Yes both interesting questions. Makes you wonder why Redwood was so keen on eliminating Tannerman, even when it raised more questions than it answered?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 15, 2017, 10:32:28 PM
More pertinent than that I think is why none of the nannies on duty at the creche that night recognised the description of a man who had picked up his daughter from them or remembered caring for a little girl with frilly-bottomed pyjamas.
How come I hadn't thought of that? Very good, but so many years later who would remember?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on September 15, 2017, 10:37:49 PM
More pertinent than that I think is why none of the nannies on duty at the creche that night recognised the description of a man who had picked up his daughter from them or remembered caring for a little girl with frilly-bottomed pyjamas.
Did Redwood actually say he had picked the child up from the crèche? or did he just intimate it by saying it was a guest at the ocean club. Here Redwood just says it was a British Holiday maker returning to their apartment through the same area. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24528530
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 15, 2017, 10:41:19 PM
I dont remember any particular vehicles being identified by witnesses, altho I thought that someone did say that Barrington slept in his van there. No proof of that (haven't the energy) but plenty of proof that he spent time on numerous occasions about the time that Madeleine vanished (very roughly) in Rua Francisco Gentil Martins near the Tapas Recption area and Baptistas supermarket
Proof listed above
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 15, 2017, 11:29:03 PM
If ifs and buts were beer and nuts we'd have ourselves a party.
The solution might be in the detail.
Motto: Never ignore the little things, they often blossom into bigger things.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 15, 2017, 11:38:37 PM
If Crecheman was who I believe he was, then he was resident in Block 4. JT did not see his wife or a 2nd child. Unless his wife & child had gone to another apartment towards Block 6 & taken their own apartment key with them, I cannot see any reason why Crecheman would have been heading in the wrong direction. MOO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 16, 2017, 12:22:31 AM
If Crecheman was who I believe he was, then he was resident in Block 4. JT did not see his wife or a 2nd child. Unless his wife & child had gone to another apartment towards Block 6 & taken their own apartment key with them, I cannot see any reason why Crecheman would have been heading in the wrong direction. MOO.
Me neither. Makes you wonder why Redwood wanted to shoehorn him into the role and ultimately elimination? Why Redwood was at such pains to take out of the running a suspect the McCanns had bent over backwards to promote since almost day one ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 12:40:37 PM
Me neither. Makes you wonder why Redwood wanted to shoehorn him into the role and ultimately elimination? Why Redwood was at such pains to take out of the running a suspect the McCanns had bent over backwards to promote since almost day one ?
My own thesis is that Crecheman saw a person/people in the vicinity of Block 5 in the minutes before the JT sighting & was able to provide the Met with a good description. What was missing from that sighting was a child. In order to verify that Crecheman's sighting tallied with JT's sighting & was the positive lead, it was absolutely essential to rule out another unidentified individual seen carrying a young girl some 45mins later. MOO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 12:58:29 PM
My own thesis is that Crecheman saw a person/people in the vicinity of Block 5 in the minutes before the JT sighting & was able to provide the Met with a good description. What was missing from that sighting was a child. In order to verify that Crecheman's sighting tallied with JT's sighting & was the positive lead, it was absolutely essential to rule out another unidentified individual seen carrying a young girl some 45mins later. MOO.
So you are saying SY basically lied to the public ? Why? Why not just explain what you have written above ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 01:11:14 PM
So you are saying SY basically lied to the public ? Why? Why not just explain what you have written above ?
I would call it deflection rather than lying. Redwood said they were "almost certain" that this was the man JT saw because said man was definitely carrying a child in the vicinity at the relevant time. What Redwood didn't say was that Tannerman had been eliminated from their enquiries.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 16, 2017, 01:17:25 PM
I would call it deflection rather than lying. Redwood said they were "almost certain" that this was the man JT saw because said man was definitely carrying a child in the vicinity at the relevant time. What Redwood didn't say was that Tannerman had been eliminated from their enquiries.
This hard to follow Misty.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 01:18:20 PM
I would call it deflection rather than lying. Redwood said they were "almost certain" that this was the man JT saw because said man was definitely carrying a child in the vicinity at the relevant time. What Redwood didn't say was that Tannerman had been eliminated from their enquiries.
But why deflect, if that's the way you wish to discribe it, why not simply tell the truth ?
Further if Redwood and co can 'deflect' in this way is it not beyond the realms of possibly that he was 'deflecting' when he and his colleagues said the McCanns were 'not suspects'
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on September 16, 2017, 01:20:18 PM
But why deflect, if that's the way you wish to discribe it, why not simply tell the truth ?
Further if Redwood and co can 'deflect' in this way is it not beyond the realms of possibly that he was 'deflecting' when he and his colleagues said the McCanns were 'not suspects'
Has it ever been said that they have been eliminated from their enquiries.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2017, 01:20:31 PM
My own thesis is that Crecheman saw a person/people in the vicinity of Block 5 in the minutes before the JT sighting & was able to provide the Met with a good description. What was missing from that sighting was a child. In order to verify that Crecheman's sighting tallied with JT's sighting & was the positive lead, it was absolutely essential to rule out another unidentified individual seen carrying a young girl some 45mins later. MOO.
I don't know how you come up with analyses like these, Misty ... I've never heard of that suggestion before ... and I would never have worked that out for myself.
Certainly a workable solution which ticks all the boxes.
DCI Redwood mentioned the 'family'. I found that odd because we were conditioned to thinking of a man on his own.
Crechman was therefore going from the creche to his accommodation ... walking in the correct direction unlike Tannerman.
When passing Block 5 ... he got a very good view of an individual or more than one in the vicinity. Who unbeknown to him were making a move on the apartment in the knowledge that with Gerry's departure there was window of at least half an hour.
It has been discussed entry and exit would have taken minutes.
The next was Jane witnessing the person or one of the persons seen by crechman carrying a child away.
Explains two such different efits?
Have I got that right?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 16, 2017, 01:23:15 PM
My own thesis is that Crecheman saw a person/people in the vicinity of Block 5 in the minutes before the JT sighting & was able to provide the Met with a good description. What was missing from that sighting was a child. In order to verify that Crecheman's sighting tallied with JT's sighting & was the positive lead, it was absolutely essential to rule out another unidentified individual seen carrying a young girl some 45mins later. MOO.
So Crecheman walked home from the creche to block 4 carrying his child before Jane arrived. He saw someone near block 5. Who was seen by JT shortly after then?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 01:30:34 PM
So Crecheman walked home from the creche to block 4 carrying his child before Jane arrived. He saw someone near block 5. Who was seen by JT shortly after then?
The man whose description none of the creche staff seemed to have recognised, carrying a little girl with frilly bottomed pyjamas who also apparently couldn't be identified as having been in the creche.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 16, 2017, 01:32:05 PM
The man whose description none of the creche staff seemed to have recognised, carrying a little girl with frilly bottomed pyjamas who also apparently couldn't be identified as having been in the creche.
Who told you all that?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 01:35:06 PM
I don't know how you come up with analyses like these, Misty ... I've never heard of that suggestion before ... and I would never have worked that out for myself.
Certainly a workable solution which ticks all the boxes.
DCI Redwood mentioned the 'family'. I found that odd because we were conditioned to thinking of a man on his own.
Crechman was therefore going from the creche to his accommodation ... walking in the correct direction unlike Tannerman.
When passing Block 5 ... he got a very good view of an individual or more than one in the vicinity. Who unbeknown to him were making a move on the apartment in the knowledge that with Gerry's departure there was window of at least half an hour.
It has been discussed entry and exit would have taken minutes.
The next was Jane witnessing the person or one of the persons seen by crechman carrying a child away.
Explains two such different efits?
Have I got that right?
I'm not sure about the two different efits part but the rest, yes, explained more clearly than I did.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 01:37:33 PM
But why deflect, if that's the way you wish to discribe it, why not simply tell the truth ?
Further if Redwood and co can 'deflect' in this way is it not beyond the realms of possibly that he was 'deflecting' when he and his colleagues said the McCanns were 'not suspects'
How could they tell the truth if they weren't sure that Crecheman had seen the alleged abductor(s)?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2017, 01:42:06 PM
They may have approached OG therefore they have done their thing.
That does not explain why the PJ apparently failed to look at the people who collected their children from the creche between 9pm & 9.15pm or ask the 3 nannies about them. It was left to OG to discover the information years down the line from the family statement so it is clear no nanny approached OG.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 16, 2017, 02:05:22 PM
The man whose description none of the creche staff seemed to have recognised, carrying a little girl with frilly bottomed pyjamas who also apparently couldn't be identified as having been in the creche.
I thought you said crecheman went from the creche to block 4. Now you say he didn't come from the creche?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 02:40:10 PM
I thought you said crecheman went from the creche to block 4. Now you say he didn't come from the creche?
Crecheman did come from the creche. He reportedly had one of their blankets. He just did not fit the description of the man JT saw, possibly because his hairstyle was wrong, his clothing may not have been the same & if it was the person I believe, he was significantly taller than Tannerman. MOO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 16, 2017, 02:48:36 PM
Crecheman did come from the creche. He reportedly had one of their blankets. He just did not fit the description of the man JT saw, possibly because his hairstyle was wrong, his clothing may not have been the same & if it was the person I believe, he was significantly taller than Tannerman. MOO.
He appeared to still have their blanket six years later. None of the nannies, even Charlotte Pennington, has ever confirmed that he collected his child either. Why did Redwood try to convince the public (with photos too) that he was the man seen by JT then?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 02:52:49 PM
Crecheman did come from the creche. He reportedly had one of their blankets. He just did not fit the description of the man JT saw, possibly because his hairstyle was wrong, his clothing may not have been the same & if it was the person I believe, he was significantly taller than Tannerman. MOO.
So the photograph of the man publicised by SY as the father who had come forward was actually the man seen by the father who had come forward. Have I got that correct?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 02:54:39 PM
Crecheman did come from the creche. He reportedly had one of their blankets. He just did not fit the description of the man JT saw, possibly because his hairstyle was wrong, his clothing may not have been the same & if it was the person I believe, he was significantly taller than Tannerman. MOO.
Sorry duplicate post.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 16, 2017, 02:56:08 PM
So the photograph of the man publicised by SY as the father who had come forward was actually the man seen by the father who had come forward. Have I got that correct?
You sound as confused as I feel. @)(++(*
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 02:59:46 PM
I don't know how you come up with analyses like these, Misty ... I've never heard of that suggestion before ... and I would never have worked that out for myself.
Certainly a workable solution which ticks all the boxes.
DCI Redwood mentioned the 'family'. I found that odd because we were conditioned to thinking of a man on his own.
Crechman was therefore going from the creche to his accommodation ... walking in the correct direction unlike Tannerman.
When passing Block 5 ... he got a very good view of an individual or more than one in the vicinity. Who unbeknown to him were making a move on the apartment in the knowledge that with Gerry's departure there was window of at least half an hour.
It has been discussed entry and exit would have taken minutes.
The next was Jane witnessing the person or one of the persons seen by crechman carrying a child away.
Explains two such different efits?
Have I got that right?
But the man the efit was based on was seen by the Smiths 45 minutes later than Crecheman.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 16, 2017, 04:34:33 PM
That does not explain why the PJ apparently failed to look at the people who collected their children from the creche between 9pm & 9.15pm or ask the 3 nannies about them. It was left to OG to discover the information years down the line from the family statement so it is clear no nanny approached OG.
WOW Misty. Would ever Pegasus be proud of you!
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2017, 04:36:37 PM
In my opinion Misty's thoughts are as logical a synopsis as I have seen. It explains some puzzles.
DCI Redwood's 'revelation' moment which made sense of the timeline was nothing to do with Crecheman being identified as being Tannerman ... it was all to do with Crecheman being Crecheman ... and Tannerman remaining to be Tannerman.
Depending on the destination, a fairly logical route to be followed when exiting the creche carrying a sleeping child would in some circumstances involve passing block five. I think all sides of the argument have been puzzled about Tannerman's direction of travel. DCI Redwood's announcement did nothing to clarify that.
We know that information emanating from many sources was analysed by Grange personnel: "Officers investigating her disappearance have completed the huge task of bringing together and investigating the massive amount of information held by colleagues in Portugal, the United Kingdom investigation and the private investigators working on behalf of the McCann family." http://genreith.de/MMcC/doku.php?id=operation_grange
Which in my opinion led the police to expand the investigation in this direction.
The only chance there ever was to locate Madeleine was to widen the net, not too much, just a little ... and to follow the evidence.
It is being done now. How much better the chance for success would have been had that been done ten years ago.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2017, 04:42:03 PM
In my opinion Misty's thoughts are as logical a synopsis as I have seen. It explains some puzzles.
DCI Redwood's 'revelation' moment which made sense of the timeline was nothing to do with Crecheman being identified as being Tannerman ... it was all to do with Crecheman being Crecheman ... and Tannerman remaining to be Tannerman.
Depending on the destination, a fairly logical route to be followed when exiting the creche carrying a sleeping child would in some circumstances involve passing block five. I think all sides of the argument have been puzzled about Tannerman's direction of travel. DCI Redwood's announcement did nothing to clarify that.
We know that information emanating from many sources was analysed by Grange personnel: "Officers investigating her disappearance have completed the huge task of bringing together and investigating the massive amount of information held by colleagues in Portugal, the United Kingdom investigation and the private investigators working on behalf of the McCann family." http://genreith.de/MMcC/doku.php?id=operation_grange
Which in my opinion led the police to expand the investigation in this direction.
The only chance there ever was to locate Madeleine was to widen the net, not too much, just a little ... and to follow the evidence.
It is being done now. How much better the chance for success would have been had that been done ten years ago.
There is absolutely nothing to substantiate this theory, other than wishful thinking.
If Crecheman had seen Tannerman why not say that in Crimewatch? Why the 'deflection' ? After all the only explanation Redwood had to give is that they were trying to identify Tannerman. Misty's theory would mean Tannerman would never be identified because the public would think he already had been.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 16, 2017, 05:06:09 PM
So this confirms Jane Tanners sighting and as such confirms that likely he was the abductor?
Maybe this is a reason why SY dont believe that The Mccanns were involved in Madeleines disappearance? And there could be other things that we dont know about
Seems to me that this means that Jane got her timings mixed up.
She saw Gerry and Jez chatting at about 9.15 to 9.20, and she saw Tannerman on her later trip when she went to relieve Russell to go have his dinner.
Aimho
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2017, 05:07:41 PM
So this confirms Jane Tanners sighting and as such confirms that likely he was the abductor?
Maybe this is a reason why SY dont believe that The Mccanns were involved in Madeleines disappearance? And there could be other things that we dont know about
Seems to me that this means that Jane got her timings mixed up.
She saw Gerry and Jez chatting at about 9.15 to 9.20, and she saw Tannerman on her later trip when she went to relieve Russell to go have his dinner.
Aimho
Just a reminder Sadie.
Abduction is a theory, and not proven, no matter how many times you type otherwise.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 16, 2017, 05:11:28 PM
Tanner man was going in an easterly direction when Jane spotted him. Was he expecting to be picked up by a car/van coming up from the Little Car Park opposite the Tapas Reception? One that failed to turn up when the driver saw Jane witnessing the abductor? And seeing Jane, the abductor walked on away from her?
Then dithered a while, or maybe tried to get help from a friend who didn't want him there, before setting out for Rua d'Escola, where a man was seen carrying a little girl by The Smith family? This links up quite well with the timing of Smithman in Rua D'Escola about
We dont know. I make no claim to knowing, but it all links up rather well Mistys theory sounds pretty good to me, but we must wait and see.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 16, 2017, 05:15:40 PM
So the photograph of the man publicised by SY as the father who had come forward was actually the man seen by the father who had come forward. Have I got that correct?
No. The photograph of the man shown as Crecheman was the innocent holidaymaker carrying his daughter. He had placed himself & his family in the area at the time (note, not actually crossing the junction in the manner JT witnessed). Listen to the video regarding the clothing https://youtu.be/OZ8jmdWlB8Y?t=1330 "dressed in the kind of clothing he wore on holiday".....not specific to the night of the 3rd. "Uncannily similar pyjamas", not almpst identical. The bare feet weren't mentioned.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 06:00:39 PM
There is absolutely nothing to substantiate this theory, other than wishful thinking.
If Crecheman had seen Tannerman why not say that in Crimewatch? Why the 'deflection' ? After all the only explanation Redwood had to give is that they were trying to identify Tannerman. Misty's theory would mean Tannerman would never be identified because the public would think he already had been.
Crecheman probably didn't know he had seen Tannerman in my theory because the man was probably not carrying a child at that point so there was no need for suspicion. You need a bit more than "I saw a man in/near Block 5 and I could identify him again" - he needed to be seen carrying Madeleine. Here's a point - if there were 2 people involved, would the abductor(singular) be the person who actually removed Madeleine from the apartment rather than the person who carried her away?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2017, 06:01:58 PM
Crecheman probably didn't know he had seen Tannerman in my theory because the man was probably not carrying a child at that point so there was no need for suspicion. You need a bit more than "I saw a man in/near Block 5 and I could identify him again" - he needed to be seen carrying Madeleine. Here's a point - if there were 2 people involved, would the abductor(singular) be the person who actually removed Madeleine from the apartment rather than the person who carried her away?
What abductor ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 06:38:04 PM
No. The photograph of the man shown as Crecheman was the innocent holidaymaker carrying his daughter. He had placed himself & his family in the area at the time (note, not actually crossing the junction in the manner JT witnessed). Listen to the video regarding the clothing https://youtu.be/OZ8jmdWlB8Y?t=1330 "dressed in the kind of clothing he wore on holiday".....not specific to the night of the 3rd. "Uncannily similar pyjamas", not almpst identical. The bare feet weren't mentioned.
Surely if SY were still looking for Tannerman they would simply have used Tanner's efit? Why say Tanner's sighting had been ruled out ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 16, 2017, 07:43:26 PM
No. The photograph of the man shown as Crecheman was the innocent holidaymaker carrying his daughter. He had placed himself & his family in the area at the time (note, not actually crossing the junction in the manner JT witnessed). Listen to the video regarding the clothing https://youtu.be/OZ8jmdWlB8Y?t=1330 "dressed in the kind of clothing he wore on holiday".....not specific to the night of the 3rd. "Uncannily similar pyjamas", not almpst identical. The bare feet weren't mentioned.
You are saying Crecheman walked from east to west on his way to block 4 before Jane arrived on the scene and it wasn't him that she saw.
He, however, saw a person hanging around and he gave OG a good description.
The next step is to look for the person seen by Crecheman and possibly by JT, surely? Issuing new e-fits based on the new description perhaps?
OG did the exact opposite. Instead of renewing their efforts to identify Tannerman, they go to great lengths to try to make the public believe they have eliminated him. That is totally illogical in my opinion.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 08:06:41 PM
You are saying Crecheman walked from east to west on his way to block 4 before Jane arrived on the scene and it wasn't him that she saw.
He, however, saw a person hanging around and he gave OG a good description.
The next step is to look for the person seen by Crecheman and possibly by JT, surely? Issuing new e-fits based on the new description perhaps?
OG did the exact opposite. Instead of renewing their efforts to identify Tannerman, they go to great lengths to try to make the public believe they have eliminated him. That is totally illogical in my opinion.
Glad I'm not the only one to think that.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 16, 2017, 09:11:40 PM
Now I'm wondering why OG made such a song and dance about the Smithman e-fits. They had had them for ages and done nothing with them. Why did they suddenly decide to publicise them and eliminate Tannerman? Why did they change the time of the 'abduction', which definitely finished off Tannerman? Did they want people to concentrate on Smithman or to stop looking at Tannerman?
I looked what was being said in 2013. The UK media was calling on the Portuguese to reopen their investigation but to no avail. They did reopen it, however, after the Crimewatch programme was shown. That makes me wonder if the two events were connected.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 09:15:18 PM
Now I'm wondering why OG made such a song and dance about the Smithman e-fits. They had had them for ages and done nothing with them. Why did they suddenly decide to publicise them and eliminate Tannerman? Why did they change the time of the 'abduction', which definitely finished off Tannerman? Did they want people to concentrate on Smithman or to stop looking at Tannerman?
I looked what was being said in 2013. The UK media was calling on the Portuguese to reopen their investigation but to no avail. They did reopen it, however, after the Crimewatch programme was shown. That makes me wonder if the two events were connected.
Did SY actually change the time of the abduction or did they just move the clock forward?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 09:29:30 PM
There is possibility that Crecheman was able to positively ID whoever he saw so there would be no need to issue another efit. As I said before, it's just a theory which, to me, fits.
So if Crecheman could ID Tannerman why show a photo of Crecheman and why wasn't Tannerman made an arguido in 2013 ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 09:35:57 PM
So if Crecheman could ID Tannerman why show a photo of Crecheman and why wasn't Tannerman made an arguido in 2013 ?
Possibly to make people believe that Tannerman was Crecheman, as they have done for 4 years, while the Met/PJ were able to discreetly follow that particular lead, which must have been difficult given the lack of tangible forensics. It would have been foolish just to pull him in back in 2013. IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 16, 2017, 09:50:49 PM
Could have been either. He may have been asked to do an e-fit which was only shared with the new PJ team.
As you say, just a theory which is becoming more and more unlikely. I can't imagine why the police would want to suggest that they had found the man seen by JT if what they had actually found was a key witness who had not been seen by JT.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 09:55:57 PM
Possibly to make people believe that Tannerman was Crecheman, as they have done for 4 years, while the Met/PJ were able to discreetly follow that particular lead, which must have been difficult given the lack of tangible forensics. It would have been foolish just to pull him in back in 2013. IMO.
Why introduce Crecheman at all then ? Why not just leave things as they'd been for 4 years ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 16, 2017, 10:24:33 PM
Why introduce Crecheman at all then ? Why not just leave things as they'd been for 4 years ?
Why? Because the Met needed to show the public a valid reason, without compromising the investigation, for the shift of focus, rather than just saying that they were no longer looking for Tannerman because he had actually been identified as MR AA. All attention could then be diverted to the similarly dressed Smithman.
IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 10:41:44 PM
Can we stop these flights of fancy. Too many posts with no supporting information.
And the supporting information for much of the content of O Enigma is.......?
ETA Please feel free to find all the holes in my theory. When someone can come up with a plausible explanation as to why none of the nannies at the creche recognised Crecheman + child from the description of Tannerman + child in circulation for so many years, I'd be happy to hear it because quite clearly the original investigation never asked the questions. Crecheman was a MW tourist - yet unrecognised by any of his fellow holidaymakers from the JT description. He went to dinner, then to the creche - still later unrecognised. The only explanation I can come up with is - Tannerman wasn't Crecheman.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 10:56:25 PM
Why? Because the Met needed to show the public a valid reason, without compromising the investigation, for the shift of focus, rather than just saying that they were no longer looking for Tannerman because he had actually been identified as MR AA. All attention could then be diverted to the similarly dressed Smithman.
IMO.
The Met didn't have to say anything at all.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 11:11:14 PM
They did if they didn't want to be inundated with questions as to why they wanted to shift the focus onto Smithman when the matter of the Tanner sighting hadn't been resolved.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 11:18:32 PM
They did if they didn't want to be inundated with questions as to why they wanted to shift the focus onto Smithman when the matter of the Tanner sighting hadn't been resolved.
Why shift the focus when everything had been going swimmingly for the last four years ? Am I missing something ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 11:37:03 PM
Why shift the focus when everything had been going swimmingly for the last four years ? Am I missing something ?
I'm not quite sure what you mean regarding "4 years". Crecheman's statement didn't come to light until the review period & SY spoke to the family. That may have only been in 2013. If they had, in fact, identified Tannerman then there was still the question of the 2nd unidentified man who, as I've posted on another thread, was always going to be Tannerman's get-out-of-jail-free card. IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 16, 2017, 11:48:40 PM
I'm not quite sure what you mean regarding "4 years". Crecheman's statement didn't come to light until the review period & SY spoke to the family. That may have only been in 2013. If they had, in fact, identified Tannerman then there was still the question of the 2nd unidentified man who, as I've posted on another thread, was always going to be Tannerman's get-out-of-jail-free card. IMO.
From one of your previous posts.....' 'Possibly to make people believe that Tannerman was Crecheman, as they have done for 4 years'
If Crecheman had identified Tannerman then that would have been enough to make him an arguido
Not sure what you mean about Crecheman’s statement ? How is it relevant? As far as we know he didn't see anyone and certainly not Tannerman.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 16, 2017, 11:57:27 PM
From one of your previous posts.....' 'Possibly to make people believe that Tannerman was Crecheman, as they have done for 4 years'
If Crecheman had identified Tannerman then that would have been enough to make him an arguido
Not sure what you mean about Crecheman’s statement ? How is it relevant? As far as we know he didn't see anyone and certainly not Tannerman.
I cannot go any further with the reason for not making an arguido of an identified Tannerman without being libellous. You need more evidence than one eye witness statement, as the original investigation proved with several cases of "mistaken identity".
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 17, 2017, 12:39:53 AM
I cannot go any further with the reason for not making an arguido of an identified Tannerman without being libellous. You need more evidence than one eye witness statement, as the original investigation proved with several cases of "mistaken identity".
One eye-witness would certainly be enough to make an individual an arguido as questioning them in a way that may implicate them in a criminal offence would be necessary.
Misty, do you really think that if the PJ had an eyewitness that could identify a child abductor, the abductor wouldn't be pulled in for questioning faster than his feet could touch the ground ? To suggest such a thing is simply ridiculous.
Sorry Misty, remind me again what evidence you used while formulating your theory?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 17, 2017, 12:47:29 AM
One eye-witness would certainly be enough to make an individual an arguido as questioning them in a way that may implicate them in a criminal offence would be necessary.
Misty, do you really think that if the PJ had an eyewitness that could identify a child abductor, the abductor wouldn't be pulled in for questioning faster than his feet could touch the ground ? To suggest such a thing is simply ridiculous.
Sorry Misty, remind me again what evidence you used while formulating your theory?
If the eye witness did not see the man with Madeleine, what grounds are there for pulling him in when there is another unidentified man + child who was walking in Luz during the critical period? What if they had already taken a statement from him & he'd been checked out?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 17, 2017, 02:28:43 AM
If the eye witness did not see the man with Madeleine, what grounds are there for pulling him in when there is another unidentified man + child who was walking in Luz during the critical period? What if they had already taken a statement from him & he'd been checked out?
They are not suppose to lie in their witness statements but what is stopping them?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on September 17, 2017, 08:31:39 AM
Oh! that one,the untraceable one,do they exist one wonders.
Yup ... the one or more they are spending a lot of time and effort on ... not to mention money, bearing in mind they have presented a case to the suits, and have asked for more to finish what they are doing.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on September 17, 2017, 10:24:11 AM
Yup ... the one or more they are spending a lot of time and effort on ... not to mention money, bearing in mind they have presented a case to the suits, and have asked for more to finish what they are doing.
OG remind me of Del boy "this time next year we'll be millionaires.
OG"this time next year we'll find out what happened".
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 17, 2017, 10:34:56 AM
If the eye witness did not see the man with Madeleine, what grounds are there for pulling him in when there is another unidentified man + child who was walking in Luz during the critical period? What if they had already taken a statement from him & he'd been checked out?
If he'd been checked out then why were SY still pursuing him under this rather ridiculous ruse ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 17, 2017, 11:14:39 AM
If he'd been checked out then why were SY still pursuing him under this rather ridiculous ruse ?
Maybe it was a bank holiday and nothing much to do.
I just want to know how Misty is the only one who has this information about what the SY have been doing- playing with our minds like that just isn't cricket dear chaps. ...waiting for cites, along with democracy in Syria, my lawnmower being returned, and my youngest son eventually admitting he DID crash the car into my newly built wall! (5 years ago).
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2017, 11:59:19 AM
And the supporting information for much of the content of O Enigma is.......?
ETA Please feel free to find all the holes in my theory. When someone can come up with a plausible explanation as to why none of the nannies at the creche recognised Crecheman + child from the description of Tannerman + child in circulation for so many years, I'd be happy to hear it because quite clearly the original investigation never asked the questions. Crecheman was a MW tourist - yet unrecognised by any of his fellow holidaymakers from the JT description. He went to dinner, then to the creche - still later unrecognised. The only explanation I can come up with is - Tannerman wasn't Crecheman.
You are accusing Redwood of inventing Crecheman in my opinion. Why did no-one recognise him from JT's description?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 17, 2017, 12:47:58 PM
If he'd been checked out then why were SY still pursuing him under this rather ridiculous ruse ?
Why didn't the PJ recall Gerry as soon as that 60-80% positive identification was made by MS? Think about it and you'll understand why SY couldn't just pull in a person Crecheman may have identified as being near 5A on 3/5.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 17, 2017, 01:05:45 PM
Why didn't the PJ recall Gerry as soon as that 60-80% positive identification was made by MS? Think about it and you'll understand why SY couldn't just pull in a person Crecheman may have identified as being near 5A on 3/5.
Gerry was already an arguido by that time.
Misty where is your evidence that Crecheman identified anyone?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 17, 2017, 01:09:14 PM
You are accusing Redwood of inventing Crecheman in my opinion. Why did no-one recognise him from JT's description?
Not at all. Crecheman absolutely exists & provided a genuine statement IMO. The question as to why no-one recognised him from JT's description is the root of the problem surrounding SY's assertion that he, as the JT sighting, was not the abductor. I have merely attempted to show why I think SY may have been deflecting away from Tannerman & the reasoning behind it. Should Tannerman actually be one & the same as Crecheman, then it merely serves to highlight another major failure made during the original PJ investigation in not checking out the people who were known to be walking around in OC after collecting their children from the creche. 11 children from 8 families - it was hardly an enormous task compared to visiting over 400 local properties and could have saved years of wondering.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 17, 2017, 01:13:25 PM
Misty where is your evidence that Crecheman identified anyone?
I have never said I have any evidence per se. It is speculation based on the fact that SY elected to reveal Crecheman as Tannerman thus removing that sighting from the equation, yet there remain a few major questions as to how that revelation could be validated. I'm not asking you to believe it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 17, 2017, 01:14:11 PM
Not at all. Crecheman absolutely exists & provided a genuine statement IMO. The question as to why no-one recognised him from JT's description is the root of the problem surrounding SY's assertion that he, as the JT sighting, was not the abductor. I have merely attempted to show why I think SY may have been deflecting away from Tannerman & the reasoning behind it. Should Tannerman actually be one & the same as Crecheman, then it merely serves to highlight another major failure made during the original PJ investigation in not checking out the people who were known to be walking around in OC after collecting their children from the creche. 11 children from 8 families - it was hardly an enormous task compared to visiting over 400 local properties and could have saved years of wondering.
Why did SY publicise him as Tanner's sighting then and all but eliminate him ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 17, 2017, 01:17:56 PM
I have never said I have any evidence per se. It is speculation based on the fact that SY elected to reveal Crecheman as Tannerman thus removing that sighting from the equation, yet there remain a few major questions as to how that revelation could be validated. I'm not asking you to believe it.
Do you think perhaps SY are satisfied Tannerman is Crecheman and there really is nothing more to it than that ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 17, 2017, 01:38:49 PM
Do you think perhaps SY are satisfied Tannerman is Crecheman and there really is nothing more to it than that ?
That may well be the case but it doesn't provide answers to our questions, does it? It doesn't explain why Crecheman did absolutely nothing after making his statement/completing the questionnaire while that image was still featuring in the press/on Crimewatch, Panorama etc.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on September 17, 2017, 02:23:33 PM
Repeating Deleted Comments will result in Warning Points.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 17, 2017, 02:28:34 PM
Why didn't the PJ recall Gerry as soon as that 60-80% positive identification was made by MS? Think about it and you'll understand why SY couldn't just pull in a person Crecheman may have identified as being near 5A on 3/5.
The Prosecutor realised in September 2007 that the time of Madeleine's disappearance had never been confirmed;
whether to confirm or deny its occurrence in relation to the crimes of abduction, homicide, exposure to abandonment and hiding of the body and according to defined plan,it is necessary to document the real time of the disappearance in question, establish the location of each of the intervening parties - from the McCann couple to the group of friends who were on holiday with them in the Ocean Club tourist apartments in Praia da Luz : http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm
The following day Mr Smith contacted UK police to tell them of his suspicions about who he saw on 3rd May. I think that made it imperative that the timeline was examined, because the timeline was Gerry's alibi for the time of the Smith sighting. Accordingly;
In the letter of request sent to the United Kingdom relating to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann it was requested that the witnesses who were on holiday with Madeleine's parents would inform us about their availability to come to Portugal to do a reconstruction, the dates proposed being 28/29 April or 15/16 May http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2017, 02:57:11 PM
Not at all. Crecheman absolutely exists & provided a genuine statement IMO. The question as to why no-one recognised him from JT's description is the root of the problem surrounding SY's assertion that he, as the JT sighting, was not the abductor. I have merely attempted to show why I think SY may have been deflecting away from Tannerman & the reasoning behind it. Should Tannerman actually be one & the same as Crecheman, then it merely serves to highlight another major failure made during the original PJ investigation in not checking out the people who were known to be walking around in OC after collecting their children from the creche. 11 children from 8 families - it was hardly an enormous task compared to visiting over 400 local properties and could have saved years of wondering.
If no-one recognised him why are you so sure that he exists?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 17, 2017, 03:14:01 PM
The Prosecutor realised in September 2007 that the time of Madeleine's disappearance had never been confirmed;
whether to confirm or deny its occurrence in relation to the crimes of abduction, homicide, exposure to abandonment and hiding of the body and according to defined plan,it is necessary to document the real time of the disappearance in question, establish the location of each of the intervening parties - from the McCann couple to the group of friends who were on holiday with them in the Ocean Club tourist apartments in Praia da Luz : http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm
The following day Mr Smith contacted UK police to tell them of his suspicions about who he saw on 3rd May. I think that made it imperative that the timeline was examined, because the timeline was Gerry's alibi for the time of the Smith sighting. Accordingly;
In the letter of request sent to the United Kingdom relating to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann it was requested that the witnesses who were on holiday with Madeleine's parents would inform us about their availability to come to Portugal to do a reconstruction, the dates proposed being 28/29 April or 15/16 May http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm
The people in the timeline were his alibis, not the timeline itself. Martin Smith's own timeline was incorrect.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: slartibartfast on September 17, 2017, 03:21:03 PM
I have never said I have any evidence per se. It is speculation based on the fact that SY elected to reveal Crecheman as Tannerman thus removing that sighting from the equation, yet there remain a few major questions as to how that revelation could be validated. I'm not asking you to believe it.
Please stop the unnecessary speculation.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on September 17, 2017, 03:34:15 PM
If no-one recognised him why are you so sure that he exists?
No-one recognised him from the description given by Jane. Crecheman placed himself & his family in the vicinity of Block 5 around the appropriate time. What has not been confirmed by the Met is that Crecheman himself said he walked from west to east across the junction rather than the opposite way. I am sure he exists, as shown in the photo on Crimewatch 2013.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 17, 2017, 03:39:58 PM
If we are permitted to discuss Amaral & his coffin theories, his freezer theories & Jane Tanner using a different route back to her apartment I don't understand why you object to me speculating about SY's reasons for elimating Tannerman rather than Amaral's total disbelief of him. The difference is, I am not presenting any of my speculation as fact.
ETA John read this topic late last night & didn't remove any of my posts.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 17, 2017, 03:43:19 PM
The conversation has arisen as a direct result of discussion on Amaral's theory as portrayed in 'O Enigma - with English subtitles' ... in my opinion one individual's theory is as good as another's if on topic.
Please do not make the attempt to curtail free speech because you do not like what is being said.
In my very firm opinion Misty's theory has the benefit of never having been discussed before - it is therefore innovative for a change.
In my opinion Misty's theory which is mostly based on information available in the files and is therefore as valid as discussion on Amaral's to which you appear to have no objection.
In my opinion Misty's theory is not outwith the bounds of possibility and stands as a rejection of the Amaral portrayal of Jane Tanner's evidence ... as portrayed in 'CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles'. Something along the lines of - right of reply.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2017, 04:31:56 PM
No-one recognised him from the description given by Jane. Crecheman placed himself & his family in the vicinity of Block 5 around the appropriate time. What has not been confirmed by the Met is that Crecheman himself said he walked from west to east across the junction rather than the opposite way. I am sure he exists, as shown in the photo on Crimewatch 2013.
No-one recognised him from the description given by Jane as far as you know. No-one has identified him after the Crimewatch programme either as far as you know. In both cases the truth is that you don't know. Therefore the lack of identification can't be quoted as if it's evidence; it's an assumption.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: slartibartfast on September 17, 2017, 04:38:34 PM
The conversation has arisen as a direct result of discussion on Amaral's theory as portrayed in 'O Enigma - with English subtitles' ... in my opinion one individual's theory is as good as another's if on topic.
Please do not make the attempt to curtail free speech because you do not like what is being said.
In my very firm opinion Misty's theory has the benefit of never having been discussed before - it is therefore innovative for a change.
In my opinion Misty's theory which is mostly based on information available in the files and is therefore as valid as discussion on Amaral's to which you appear to have no objection.
In my opinion Misty's theory is not outwith the bounds of possibility and stands as a rejection of the Amaral portrayal of Jane Tanner's evidence ... as portrayed in 'CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles'. Something along the lines of - right of reply.
I feel a George Mparrbe moment coming on.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 17, 2017, 05:23:09 PM
No-one recognised him from the description given by Jane as far as you know. No-one has identified him after the Crimewatch programme either as far as you know. In both cases the truth is that you don't know. Therefore the lack of identification can't be quoted as if it's evidence; it's an assumption.
If someone had already recognised Tannerman from Jane's description, what was DCI Redwood's revelation moment all about? You can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Eleanor on September 17, 2017, 05:24:45 PM
If someone had already recognised Tannerman from Jane's description, what was DCI Redwood's revelation moment all about? You can't have it both ways.
I didn't say they had. You said they hadn't. I merely pointed out that you are speculating. I can do that too, then we can both talk about things that may or may not have happened;
Someone could have contacted OG and said they thought Tannerman sounded to them like one of the guests. They may have said he used the creche that night, he was dressed in similar clothes and carrying his child. OG checked him out and came to the conclusion that JT had seen him, an innocent guest.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 17, 2017, 05:39:10 PM
I didn't say they had. You said they hadn't. I merely pointed out that you are speculating. I can do that too, then we can both talk about things that may or may not have happened;
Someone could have contacted OG and said they thought Tannerman sounded to them like one of the guests. They may have said he used the creche that night, he was dressed in similar clothes and carrying his child. OG checked him out and came to the conclusion that JT had seen him, an innocent guest.
Why did that someone wait over 4 years to contact OG? I can speculate that Crecheman didn't follow up his own disclosures simply because he couldn't place himself crossing that junction as described by JT.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 17, 2017, 05:49:06 PM
Or perhaps crecheman doesn't exist.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 17, 2017, 05:56:41 PM
Why did that someone wait over 4 years to contact OG? I can speculate that Crecheman didn't follow up his own disclosures simply because he couldn't place himself crossing that junction as described by JT.
Because they didn't want to say that JT might have just seen a fellow guest in case they were wrong. Maybe OG contacted them because they were one of the eight families who used the creche. Maybe maybe maybe........
Which just goes to show that speculation may be entertaining but it's no substitute for known facts.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2017, 06:57:12 PM
It was very quiet. None of the T5 who checked saw anyone or were seen by anyone except Wilkins even though;
The Moyes came back at 9, were on their balcony at 9.15 The executive chef drove past 5A and parked outside the Tapas 9.10 Up to seven families left the Tapas complex after their dinner. Various parents were carrying children around.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 17, 2017, 07:16:52 PM
How do you think the 11 children from 8 different families using the creche that night got back to their apartments?
Was the information there right from the beginning?
It does not appear to me to have been a herculean task.
The Policia Judiciaria were in possession of Jane Tanner's witness statement ... and as the only eye witness testimony I think it would have made sense to prioritise it and put it together immediately.
Speak to the on duty nannies at the creche
Check the names of the children present that evening and collected from the creche
Speak to the parents to ascertain their route home and if they had seen anything out of place or suspicious now that a child was missing
Pay particular attention to those whose path took them anywhere near the vicinity of block 5
I don't think that amounts to hindsight ... I think it amounts to diligence and a very obvious sequence of events which should have been dealt with as a matter of urgency.
In my opinion there is an obvious outrage here. It is that evidence in the shape of a parent who collected his child from a creche on the night Madeleine disappeared ... and whose route home took him into the vicinity of the the apartment from where she disappeared ... was missed by the initial investigators.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 17, 2017, 07:19:00 PM
Maybe Jane Tanner confused her left with her right, saw Crecheman moving east to west but remembered him moving west to east. Well it's plausible isn't it ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 17, 2017, 07:31:32 PM
Maybe Jane Tanner confused her left with her right, saw Crecheman moving east to west but remembered him moving west to east. Well it's plausible isn't it ?
If you say so, Alice - although speculation & changing facts does not go down well in some quarters. She got her dots wrong. &%&£(+
Maybe Jane Tanner confused her left with her right, saw Crecheman moving east to west but remembered him moving west to east. Well it's plausible isn't it ?
Very plausible. Many people have trouble following directions when driving because they confuse left and right.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2017, 07:52:02 PM
Very frequently. I think I lost 6 posts one day and also a warning for libel.
I have been hard hitting and very sharp at times but I dont think that I have ever committed libel. If you get the sharp stuff from others you give it back and boy have I been abused over the years on here
Despite never having libelled I have a long list of accusations of it and no-body ever gives a proper explanation. John gives something of an explanation but can never point to in any way to how I have libelled per se.
Now I am being denied the right to pm John, or to pm Brietts or Eleanor at the time to discuss it. Recently both stephen and slarti have been ruthless in cutting my posts ... I think they are trying to hassle me out, like davel, ferryman and Alfie.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 17, 2017, 09:25:57 PM
Very frequently. I think I lost 6 posst one day and also a warning for libel.
I have been hard hitting and very sharp at times but I dont think that I have ever committed libel. If you get the sharp stuff from others you give it back and boy have I been abused over the years on here
Despite never having libelled I have a long list of accusations of it and no-body ever gives proper explanation. John gives something of an explanation but never says that I have libelled in any way
Now I am being denied the right to pm John or to pm Brietts or Eleanor at the time to discuss it. Recently both stephen and slarti have been ruthless in cutting my posts ... I think they are trying to hassle me out, like davel, ferryman and Alfie.
If you don't realise you are libelling, you need to look at your posts more carefully.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 17, 2017, 09:33:12 PM
It was very quiet. None of the T5 who checked saw anyone or were seen by anyone except Wilkins even though;
The Moyes came back at 9, were on their balcony at 9.15 The executive chef drove past 5A and parked outside the Tapas 9.10 Up to seven families left the Tapas complex after their dinner. Various parents were carrying children around.
As far as we know ! But why would anyone report seeing any of the Tapas group going to and fro. None of them was carrying a little girl
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 17, 2017, 09:42:26 PM
As it is Jane's diagram shows where Tannerman was when she initially saw him ... and where he was as she reached the top of the road to turn home.
His direction of travel has caused much speculation over the years. His very existence has caused much speculation.
My gut reaction is that Scotland Yard are speculating no longer on either point and your speculation gave me a 'revelation moment'.
I think the latest press releases stating SY have completed their work & are only on a watching brief is evidence that they are no longer speculating over Tannerman. It will be very interesting to see what happens next - maybe we will all have a "moment" in one form or another. ?{)(**
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2017, 07:32:34 AM
If Tannerman had been going from east to west, Jane would have been following him after she reached the corner of the junction.......
It was my feeble attempt at a joke. Ignoring the facts and speculating is fun. Perhaps crecheman, heading for block 4, realised he'd left his kid's favourite cuddly toy at the creche so he turned back. That's when Jane saw him.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 18, 2017, 07:40:29 AM
It was my feeble attempt at a joke. Ignoring the facts and speculating is fun. Perhaps crecheman, heading for block 4, realised he'd left his kid's favourite cuddly toy at the creche so he turned back. That's when Jane saw him.
Well you could but if the child was asleep just pick it up tomorrow.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2017, 08:57:03 AM
It was my feeble attempt at a joke. Ignoring the facts and speculating is fun. Perhaps crecheman, heading for block 4, realised he'd left his kid's favourite cuddly toy at the creche so he turned back. That's when Jane saw him.
I did consider that in my theory but it made no sense for Crecheman to carry his daughter all the way back to the creche when his apartment was less than 200m away & his wife would almost certainly be there to care for their child while he nipped back to collect the toy.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 18, 2017, 02:49:33 PM
I did consider that in my theory but it made no sense for Crecheman to carry his daughter all the way back to the creche when his apartment was less than 200m away & his wife would almost certainly be there to care for their child while he nipped back to collect the toy.
So are you saying that there are three men now carrying bare-footed Madeleine-loakalikes around PDL on the night of the third ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 03:04:30 PM
So are you saying that there are three men now carrying bare-footed Madeleine-loakalikes around PDL on the night of the third ?
No. Crecheman was definitely carrying his daughter in the vicinity that evening but SY have not confirmed she was barefooted. In my theory he saw a man/people near 5A who were not carrying a child at that time but one carried Madeleine away shortly after. Libel rules do not permit comment about the 3rd man.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 18, 2017, 03:15:29 PM
No. Crecheman was definitely carrying his daughter in the vicinity that evening but SY have not confirmed she was barefooted. In my theory he saw a man/people near 5A who were not carrying a child at that time but one carried Madeleine away shortly after. Libel rules do not permit comment about the 3rd man.
Harry Lime, wasn't it ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 18, 2017, 03:18:53 PM
No. Crecheman was definitely carrying his daughter in the vicinity that evening but SY have not confirmed she was barefooted. In my theory he saw a man/people near 5A who were not carrying a child at that time but one carried Madeleine away shortly after. Libel rules do not permit comment about the 3rd man.
Remind me, why would Crecheman allow himself to be used in this way by SY ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 04:15:09 PM
Remind me, why would Crecheman allow himself to be used in this way by SY ?
Crecheman was unsure who Jane saw when he completed his questionnaire. He thought it may be him. Without knowing precisely what he saw when walking past Block 5 or who he saw (if anyone) when he looked down RDFGM before crossing the road it would be difficult to say that he was being used in any manner. IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 18, 2017, 04:20:03 PM
Crecheman was unsure who Jane saw when he completed his questionnaire. He thought it may be him. Without knowing precisely what he saw when walking past Block 5 or who he saw (if anyone) when he looked down RDFGM before crossing the road it would be difficult to say that he was being used in any manner. IMO.
The part I have never understood is why Redwood wasn't 100% convinced by crècheman. Surely the chances of two identical/identically dressed men carrying identical children just happening to be there that night is infinitesimally small?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 04:34:01 PM
The part I have never understood is why Redwood wasn't 100% convinced by crècheman. Surely the chances of two identical/identically dressed men carrying identical children just happening to be there that night is infinitesimally small?
The men & pyjamas were "uncannily similar" not identical. If Crecheman could not confirm the clothing he was wearing that particular night rather than the type of clothing he wore on holiday (which resembles that of many 30+ men) then DCI Redwood could not have been 100% sure - especially when the hair & height are factored in. IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 18, 2017, 05:15:53 PM
The men & pyjamas were "uncannily similar" not identical. If Crècheman could not confirm the clothing he was wearing that particular night rather than the type of clothing he wore on holiday (which resembles that of many 30+ men) then DCI Redwood could not have been 100% sure - especially when the hair & height are factored in. IMO.
So in other words, if Tannerman was Crècheman, then Jane Tanner's description was lacking.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2017, 05:43:40 PM
The part I have never understood is why Redwood wasn't 100% convinced by crècheman. Surely the chances of two identical/identically dressed men carrying identical children just happening to be there that night is infinitesimally small?
What perturbed me was DCI Redwood's "almost sure".
I have always thought that Tannerman had kidnapped Madeleine. Too much of a coincidence for a child to have gone missing and a man to be seen seen just outside the apartment carrying a child away from it. His image still features prominently on Madeleine's website. http://findmadeleine.com/campaigns/unidentified_people.html
The forum has discussed 'Crecheman' before ... but always from the point of view of him being seen in the location where 'Tannerman' had been. I had convinced myself that he must have passed that way just minutes before because I was still hanging on to the notion that 'Tannerman' = kidnapper.
Misty's thinking outside the box allows everything to fall neatly into place. I think that it is a very neat theory which explains so much ... certainly with the exception of what Scotland Yard are thinking about regarding the Smithman/ Tannerman/ Crecheman scenario ... then that doesn't perturb me unduly. I don't feel the need to question their every move ... I'm confident they know what they are doing.
Misty's Theory has a lot of mileage in it without relying on anything extraordinary ... it is all so simple that I understand why it might have been a 'revelation moment' for the DCI. All in my opinion.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2017, 05:48:01 PM
What perturbed me was DCI Redwood's "almost sure".
I have always thought that Tannerman had kidnapped Madeleine. Too much of a coincidence for a child to have gone missing and a man to be seen seen just outside the apartment carrying a child away from it. His image still features prominently on Madeleine's website. http://findmadeleine.com/campaigns/unidentified_people.html
The forum has discussed 'Crecheman' before ... but always from the point of view of him being seen in the location where 'Tannerman' had been. I had convinced myself that he must have passed that way just minutes before because I was still hanging on to the notion that 'Tannerman' = kidnapper.
Misty's thinking outside the box allows everything to fall neatly into place. I think that it is a very neat theory which explains so much ... certainly with the exception of what Scotland Yard are thinking about regarding the Smithman/ Tannerman/ Crecheman scenario ... then that doesn't perturb me unduly. I don't feel the need to question their every move ... I'm confident they know what they are doing.
Misty's Theory has a lot of mileage in it without relying on anything extraordinary ... it is all so simple that I understand why it might have been a 'revelation moment' for the DCI. All in my opinion.
There is a much more obvious theory with multiple alerts.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 18, 2017, 05:51:03 PM
So in other words, if Tannerman was Crècheman, then Jane Tanner's description was lacking.
Jane's description was as good as it could have been in the circumstances. None of the Smiths could fully describe a man who had allegedly passed within 6 feet of them & even a combination of statements could provide one very detailed description. Jane was at least 30ft away from Tannerman & only had a few seconds sight of side profile to work with.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2017, 05:53:52 PM
So in other words, if Tannerman was Crècheman, then Jane Tanner's description was lacking.
I think Jane Tanner's description was spot on regarding Tannerman. She didn't see Crecheman. I now think that Tannerman and Crecheman were co-incidentally in the same area at much the same time. They were two different men walking in different directions. One walking homeward in the direction of an apartment block carrying his child. The other one walking away from the apartment blocks carrying a child.
I think analysis of Crecheman's statement might have been the 'revelation moment'.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2017, 06:00:45 PM
Jane's description was as good as it could have been in the circumstances. None of the Smiths could fully describe a man who had allegedly passed within 6 feet of them & even a combination of statements could provide one very detailed description. Jane was at least 30ft away from Tannerman & only had a few seconds sight of side profile to work with.
...and she b....r all.
I.M.O. of course.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2017, 06:01:46 PM
There is a much more obvious theory with multiple alerts.
In my opinion there were incredible omissions in the conduct of the case by the initial investigation ... those they did run with were found to be untenable when properly surveyed by the team which took over to try to pick up the pieces.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 06:05:53 PM
I think Jane Tanner's description was spot on regarding Tannerman. She didn't see Crecheman. I now think that Tannerman and Crecheman were co-incidentally in the same area at much the same time. They were two different men walking in different directions. One walking homeward in the direction of an apartment block carrying his child. The other one walking away from the apartment blocks carrying a child.
I think analysis of Crecheman's statement might have been the 'revelation moment'.
Then there is the little matter of why the original investigators either failed to see the significance of Crecheman's disclosure on the questionnaire or chose to bury it. The information was there to be seen, as stated by DCI Redwood,
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 18, 2017, 06:08:07 PM
Then there is the little matter of why the original investigators either failed to see the significance of Crecheman's disclosure on the questionnaire or chose to bury it. The information was there to be seen, as stated by DCI Redwood,
Remind me where this document was found, please. How many years of OG before it came to light?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 18, 2017, 06:11:39 PM
Then there is the little matter of why the original investigators either failed to see the significance of Crecheman's disclosure on the questionnaire or chose to bury it. The information was there to be seen, as stated by DCI Redwood,
How do you know they did either?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2017, 06:16:24 PM
In my opinion there were incredible omissions in the conduct of the case by the initial investigation ... those they did run with were found to be untenable when properly surveyed by the team which took over to try to pick up the pieces.
In your opinion, which of course is biased by your support of the Mccanns.
I do realize, there are several possibilities, not all of which have been investigated by OG.
Now that amounts to major omissions.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 06:22:37 PM
Remind me where this document was found, please. How many years of OG before it came to light?
Everything sent to the PJ was documented. I have no idea how far into the OG investigation the questionnaire was located. OG was launched in May 2011 & the "revelation moment" was revealed in October 2013 on Crimewatch. No doubt this had been discussed with the new PJ team as they re-opened their investigation within days. Ruling Tannerman out was not fresh evidence for the PJ - in a way it could have reinforced belief in certain quarters that an abduction did not take place. The PJ were not really interested in Smithman. So, what new piece of evidence would have warranted opening the PJ case? MOO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 06:23:55 PM
Everything sent to the PJ was documented. I have no idea how far into the OG investigation the questionnaire was located. OG was launched in May 2011 & the "revelation moment" was revealed in October 2013 on Crimewatch. No doubt this had been discussed with the new PJ team as they re-opened their investigation within days. Ruling Tannerman out was not fresh evidence for the PJ - in a way it could have reinforced belief in certain quarters that an abduction did not take place. The PJ were not really interested in Smithman. So, what new piece of evidence would have warranted opening the PJ case? MOO
Thank you. Is there any evidence that this document was among the PJ files ?. I assume the statement was completed in UK.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 18, 2017, 06:49:43 PM
Amaral would have used it to back up his own theory, that's how.
How do you know that?
How much would could a wouldchuck chuck If a woulddchuck could chuck would? As much would as a wouldchuck could chuck, If a wouldchuck could chuck would.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 06:55:17 PM
Thank you. Is there any evidence that this document was among the PJ files ?. I assume the statement was completed in UK.
Is there any evidence it wasn't? Why would that particular statement/completed questionnaire have been withheld by LP? Did the PJ not chase up vital evidence from the few parents known to have been on the OC complex with a child during the crucial time period BEFORE deciding itwastheMcCannswotdunit?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 06:59:53 PM
How much would could a wouldchuck chuck If a woulddchuck could chuck would? As much would as a wouldchuck could chuck, If a wouldchuck could chuck would.
If Amaral could have legitimately removed Tannerman from the equation, he would have done, leaving the McCanns with just a missing child, the reportedly open window & shutter & precious little else. He managed to see the Gaspars statements which weren't sent to him.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 18, 2017, 07:01:42 PM
Is there any evidence it wasn't? Why would that particular statement/completed questionnaire have been withheld by LP? Did the PJ not chase up vital evidence from the few parents known to have been on the OC complex with a child during the crucial time period BEFORE deciding itwastheMcCannswotdunit?
It seems to me that you are making assumptions without anything to back them up. Unless Redwood states where this document was found, we have no way of knowing.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 07:05:18 PM
It seems to me that you are making assumptions without anything to back them up. Unless Redwood states where this document was found, we have no way of knowing.
OK. Why do you think the document would not have been in the PJ files. given that the consensus seems to be that the UK police were collaborating to not incrimate the McCanns?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2017, 07:24:00 PM
Then there is the little matter of why the original investigators either failed to see the significance of Crecheman's disclosure on the questionnaire or chose to bury it. The information was there to be seen, as stated by DCI Redwood,
Which original investigators would that be? Leicestershire Police collected 559 questionnaires from UK people who had been in Luz. Did they send them all to the PJ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 07:31:30 PM
Which original investigators would that be? Leicestershire Police collected 559 questionnaires from UK people who had been in Luz. Did they send them all to the PJ?
Can you think of a valid reason why they wouldn't have sent them all, especially the one containing such important information which would have helped the investigation to move forward? If it wasn't sent for some inexplicable reason, then surely that in itself justified the fresh eyes used in OG.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2017, 07:54:34 PM
Can you think of a valid reason why they wouldn't have sent them all, especially the one containing such important information which would have helped the investigation to move forward? If it wasn't sent for some inexplicable reason, then surely that in itself justified the fresh eyes used in OG.
There is an e-mail conversation in the files which suggests that the questionnaires were not sent to Portugal. Detective Constable Mike Marshall is telling Ricardo Paiva;
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
He then tells Paiva what was in it. Why would he do that if Paiva had a copy?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 08:07:55 PM
There is an e-mail conversation in the files which suggests that the questionnaires were not sent to Portugal. Detective Constable Mike Marshall is telling Ricardo Paiva;
"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm
He then tells Paiva what was in it. Why would he do that if Paiva had a copy?
How did Amaral know what was in statements covered by judicial secrecy but received after he has been removed from the investigation? For ease of reference, the attached post goes someway to explaining (or not) that particular questionnaire which resulted fom the Gaspars approaching the police rather than the other way around. If Amaral was
On the 16th of May 2007, two doctor friends of the McCanns, and the Paynes, make a statement to Leicestershire Police (LP) in which they express their concern over sexually suggestive gestures made by David Payne on a previous holiday in Majorca. These alleged gestures are considered, by one of the witnesses, to be consistent with acts of paedophilia.
The statements are not sent from LP to the Policia Judiciária (PJ) until 24 October 2007 (arriving on 26 October 2007), 24 days after Gonçalo Amaral had been removed from the investigation.
In an interview with Correio da Manhã, published on 24 July 2008, Gonçalo Amaral states that the depositions arrived in May, but this refers to the date they arrived at LP.
Intriguingly, the letter from LP mentions the completion of a written questionnaire - by David and Fiona Payne - but it is unclear whether that questionnaire was supplied by the PJ or whether it was instigated by LP themselves. There appears to be no copy of the questionnaire anywhere in the PJ files.
Correio da Manhã reports, on 19 July 2008, that 'the depositions ... only entered the process in January 2008 ... At that point in time, Kate and Gerry were already arguidos, the rogatory letters had already been issued and the English, including Dave, showed their reluctance in returning to Portugal.' However, this statement, about the depositions only entering the process in January 2008, does not appear to be supported by the PJ files themselves.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2017, 08:38:08 PM
How did Amaral know what was in statements covered by judicial secrecy but received after he has been removed from the investigation? For ease of reference, the attached post goes someway to explaining (or not) that particular questionnaire which resulted fom the Gaspars approaching the police rather than the other way around. If Amaral was
On the 16th of May 2007, two doctor friends of the McCanns, and the Paynes, make a statement to Leicestershire Police (LP) in which they express their concern over sexually suggestive gestures made by David Payne on a previous holiday in Majorca. These alleged gestures are considered, by one of the witnesses, to be consistent with acts of paedophilia.
The statements are not sent from LP to the Policia Judiciária (PJ) until 24 October 2007 (arriving on 26 October 2007), 24 days after Gonçalo Amaral had been removed from the investigation.
In an interview with Correio da Manhã, published on 24 July 2008, Gonçalo Amaral states that the depositions arrived in May, but this refers to the date they arrived at LP.
Intriguingly, the letter from LP mentions the completion of a written questionnaire - by David and Fiona Payne - but it is unclear whether that questionnaire was supplied by the PJ or whether it was instigated by LP themselves. There appears to be no copy of the questionnaire anywhere in the PJ files.
Correio da Manhã reports, on 19 July 2008, that 'the depositions ... only entered the process in January 2008 ... At that point in time, Kate and Gerry were already arguidos, the rogatory letters had already been issued and the English, including Dave, showed their reluctance in returning to Portugal.' However, this statement, about the depositions only entering the process in January 2008, does not appear to be supported by the PJ files themselves.
That's interesting, but not relevant to the questionnaire question. There are none in the files, so nothing to suggest they were forwarded.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 09:41:27 PM
That's interesting, but not relevant to the questionnaire question. There are none in the files, so nothing to suggest they were forwarded.
Then why did you raise the other questionnaire which bore no relevance to those which would have been issued to the UK holidaymakers staying at OC on 3/5/2007? It would be really interesting to know when Crecheman's completed questionnaire was received by LP, i.e. before or after the Smith family came forward.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
Then why did you raise the other questionnaire which bore no relevance to those which would have been issued to the UK holidaymakers staying at OC on 3/5/2007? It would be really interesting to know when Crecheman's completed questionnaire was received by LP, i.e. before or after the Smith family came forward.
I raised the questionnaire, as I said, because it seemed LP had a copy but the PJ did not. If they didn't have that one, and none of them are in the files, that suggests that no questionnaires were sent to Portugal.
This also suggests that the questionnaires were kept by LP as once more they are giving information to the PJ about their contents;
Jane TANNER's Questionnaire states that she returned to the UK from Praia Da Luz on 17th May 2007. The Additional Family Member Questionnaire, for Russell O'BRIEN, gives his height as 6'6". http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ASSORTED_SIGHTINGS_6.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 10:45:02 PM
I raised the questionnaire, as I said, because it seemed LP had a copy but the PJ did not. If they didn't have that one, and none of them are in the files, that suggests that no questionnaires were sent to Portugal.
This also suggests that the questionnaires were kept by LP as once more they are giving information to the PJ about their contents;
Jane TANNER's Questionnaire states that she returned to the UK from Praia Da Luz on 17th May 2007. The Additional Family Member Questionnaire, for Russell O'BRIEN, gives his height as 6'6". http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ASSORTED_SIGHTINGS_6.htm
If you read the full page you will see that certain questions were asked of JT & ROB as a result of a witness report to the Portuguese police by J Conroy implicating the two were at Varna airport with Madeleine. It clearly states that the required answers were sent to DI Mick Graham Task Portugal & as this report is in the PJ files they have clearly been sent the info.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 18, 2017, 10:53:06 PM
Crecheman was unsure who Jane saw when he completed his questionnaire. He thought it may be him. Without knowing precisely what he saw when walking past Block 5 or who he saw (if anyone) when he looked down RDFGM before crossing the road it would be difficult to say that he was being used in any manner. IMO.
Misty you have absolutely no grounds for your belief other than desperately wanting Tannerman still to be the individual who abducted Madeleine.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 18, 2017, 10:54:31 PM
The part I have never understood is why Redwood wasn't 100% convinced by crècheman. Surely the chances of two identical/identically dressed men carrying identical children just happening to be there that night is infinitesimally small?
Make that three. In Misty's theory we have Crecheman, Tannerman and Smithman all carrying bare-footed Madeleine lookalikes.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 18, 2017, 10:57:49 PM
Jane's description was as good as it could have been in the circumstances. None of the Smiths could fully describe a man who had allegedly passed within 6 feet of them & even a combination of statements could provide one very detailed description. Jane was at least 30ft away from Tannerman & only had a few seconds sight of side profile to work with.
Yet she could see a tiny pattern on the child's pyjamas and the style of shoes of the alleged abductor
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2017, 10:59:05 PM
If you read the full page you will see that certain questions were asked of JT & ROB as a result of a witness report to the Portuguese police by J Conroy implicating the two were at Varna airport with Madeleine. It clearly states that the required answers were sent to DI Mick Graham Task Portugal & as this report is in the PJ files they have clearly been sent the info.
No questions were asked unless you can give a cite. The information is taken from their questionnaires. I don't know who the police officer is addressing, it doesn't say, but he tells them he has sent the info to Graham, not the questionnaire.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 11:09:48 PM
No questions were asked unless you can give a cite. The information is taken from their questionnaires. I don't know who the police officer is addressing, it doesn't say, but he tells them he has sent the info to Graham, not the questionnaire.
The copy of the questions is not in the files. The reason for the questions is, and those reasons came from Portugal. The PJ files have the copy of the answer on the files. How much clearer could it be?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 11:28:16 PM
Yet she could see a tiny pattern on the child's pyjamas and the style of shoes of the alleged abductor
Can you tell me how someone got this.....(summary of Jane's statement) *snipped* JT was confronted by information that the police technical team could find no indication that Madeleine had passed the junction where she indicated that a man had been carrying a girl in his arms. JT stood by her original statement. At the time she gave little importance to seeing this therefore common sight at Ocean Club. But she did think it was strange that the child has a blanket/sheet to cover it. Also that the man was walking quickly. His trousers were slightly baggy all the way down. Trousers were khaki, chino style. His coat/jacket was the same colour anorak style. Shoes were slightly heeled.
The child was in the man's arms, with her legs in JTs directions, and not wearing shoes. JT believed it was a girl therefore her pyjamas were light coloured (pink). She did not see the colour of her hair. She did not see her move or make a sound. She believed she was asleep.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.......from this.....(Jane's statement)
Only it was strange that the child had no cover (blanket) and the way the man walked, rapidly, and how he was dressed, the trousers were slightly wide their entire length, being straight. They (trousers) were as to colour, identical to "corticine" (a type of floor covering), "chino" [Chinese] style. As for the coat it was dark coloured, she was not able to specify what, seeming to be the same material as the trousers, it being a type of "anorak". As for the footwear she relates that she cannot confirm with certainty but [they were] shoes with a light "heel". Here there is a quandry: the quotes around the word "heel" suggest that she is not describing the footwear. There are at least three English phrases that could fit the written description: - the man was 'fleet-footed', i.e. fast and light on his feet; - this is my choice. - the man was 'light in the loafers'; - the man was 'showing a clean pair of heels'.
About the description of the child, she confirmed that it was being carried in his arms, with the legs in her direction and barefoot. She thought that it was a female child because the pyjamas were a light colour (seemingly pink to her). She never saw the hair of the child. She never saw it move nor make any sound, thinking that it was asleep. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Both taken from http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
Corticine = floor covering made from ground cork & India rubber. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=corticine&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj28rq-4q_WAhVKuhQKHfD3A5EQ_AUICygC&biw=1242&bih=602#imgrc=_
Jane has the trousers coloured as khaki in her statement. Crecheman is pictured wearing beige trousers. Corticine would appear to be a greyish colour.
What on earth were the PJ working from when issuing their pic of Tannerman??
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 18, 2017, 11:31:23 PM
Can you tell me how someone got this.....(summary of Jane's statement) *snipped* JT was confronted by information that the police technical team could find no indication that Madeleine had passed the junction where she indicated that a man had been carrying a girl in his arms. JT stood by her original statement. At the time she gave little importance to seeing this therefore common sight at Ocean Club. But she did think it was strange that the child has a blanket/sheet to cover it. Also that the man was walking quickly. His trousers were slightly baggy all the way down. Trousers were khaki, chino style. His coat/jacket was the same colour anorak style. Shoes were slightly heeled.
The child was in the man's arms, with her legs in JTs directions, and not wearing shoes. JT believed it was a girl therefore her pyjamas were light coloured (pink). She did not see the colour of her hair. She did not see her move or make a sound. She believed she was asleep.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.......from this.....(Jane's statement)
Only it was strange that the child had no cover (blanket) and the way the man walked, rapidly, and how he was dressed, the trousers were slightly wide their entire length, being straight. They (trousers) were as to colour, identical to "corticine" (a type of floor covering), "chino" [Chinese] style. As for the coat it was dark coloured, she was not able to specify what, seeming to be the same material as the trousers, it being a type of "anorak". As for the footwear she relates that she cannot confirm with certainty but [they were] shoes with a light "heel". Here there is a quandry: the quotes around the word "heel" suggest that she is not describing the footwear. There are at least three English phrases that could fit the written description: - the man was 'fleet-footed', i.e. fast and light on his feet; - this is my choice. - the man was 'light in the loafers'; - the man was 'showing a clean pair of heels'.
About the description of the child, she confirmed that it was being carried in his arms, with the legs in her direction and barefoot. She thought that it was a female child because the pyjamas were a light colour (seemingly pink to her). She never saw the hair of the child. She never saw it move nor make any sound, thinking that it was asleep. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Both taken from http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
Corticine = floor covering made from ground cork & India rubber. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=corticine&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj28rq-4q_WAhVKuhQKHfD3A5EQ_AUICygC&biw=1242&bih=602#imgrc=_
Jane has the trousers coloured as khaki in her statement. Crecheman is pictured wearing beige trousers. Corticine would appear to be a greyish colour.
What on earth were the PJ working from when issuing their pic of Tannerman??
Did the PJ issue a pic of Tannerman? I thought the only sketch in circulation was the sketch done for the McCanns by the Little woman.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 19, 2017, 12:01:17 AM
He must have been or SY would not have considered him for Tannerman. Tanner was very insistent about the child not having shoes.
That may explain why Tannerman is still featured on the OFM website, as Brietta previously posted. Top policeman do not work on assumptions or "almost certain" because there is room for error.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 19, 2017, 12:16:32 AM
That may explain why Tannerman is still featured on the OFM website, as Brietta previously posted. Top policeman do not work on assumptions or "almost certain" because there is room for error.
I fear Tannerman is still on the OFM website for the same reason you are trying to concoct a scenario that simply has no evidence to sustain it.....without Tannerman there is only Smithman.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 19, 2017, 12:17:48 AM
Did the PJ issue a pic of Tannerman? I thought the only sketch in circulation was the sketch done for the McCanns by the Little woman.
Yes, sorry, you're right about the pic. Here is the first description issued by the PJ http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id30.htm
Part 4: The PJ make the first public appeal, 25 May 2007
Detectives issued a description of a man seen on the night the four-year-old went missing in the resort of Praia Da Luz in the Algarve. Officers said the man was "carrying a child or an object that could have been taken as a child".
The man is said to be white, aged 35-40, 5ft 10in tall, medium build with hair that was short on top. He was wearing a dark jacket, beige or golden long trousers and dark shoes. At a news conference, Ch Insp Olegario de Sousa urged the man or anyone who had seen him to come forward.
Yes, sorry, you're right about the pic. Here is the first description issued by the PJ http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id30.htm
Part 4: The PJ make the first public appeal, 25 May 2007
Detectives issued a description of a man seen on the night the four-year-old went missing in the resort of Praia Da Luz in the Algarve. Officers said the man was "carrying a child or an object that could have been taken as a child".
The man is said to be white, aged 35-40, 5ft 10in tall, medium build with hair that was short on top. He was wearing a dark jacket, beige or golden long trousers and dark shoes. At a news conference, Ch Insp Olegario de Sousa urged the man or anyone who had seen him to come forward.
I fear Tannerman is still on the OFM website for the same reason you are trying to concoct a scenario that simply has no evidence to sustain it.....without Tannerman there is only Smithman.
I'm not asking you to believe my theory but mine sure is more plausible than coffins & Tannerman walking in the wrong direction as depicted by Amaral in O Enigma. Turning to Smithman, there is another problem in itself. If Tannerman had been identified after 16th May as Crecheman, all the focus would have been on the Smith sighting. Amaral did not appear to be interested in pursuing that line of inquiry until until such time as MS thought his sighting was Gerry. That, however, could not be proven due to other eye witness evidence. If Tannerman was taken out of the equation as the abductor (validating Jane's sighting as the truth) after the Smith sighting had been recorded, how would Amaral have gone about finding & identifying him? The PJ didn't have an efit, their law does not allow them to show efits. How were they going to find this unidentified man who would not be recognised again by the Smiths, but was another (perhaps irremovable) obstacle to the parental culpability theory? Would the solution to one problem actually have been the creation of another for the PJ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 19, 2017, 12:40:41 AM
So the PJ say beige or golden trousers and Little draws beige or golden trousers. I can't see the problem.
If you go back to Jane's statement of 10th May & the summary, both of which preceded the drawing, the colour of the trousers differs. Is it a translation error or why was the colour altered?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 19, 2017, 12:57:19 AM
If you go back to Jane's statement of 10th May & the summary, both of which preceded the drawing, the colour of the trousers differs. Is it a translation error or why was the colour altered?
Corticine is a golden, browny colour so tallies perfectly with the 'golden beige' of her rogatory statement. The khaki is probably a mistranslation.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 19, 2017, 01:15:12 AM
There is no evidence that Crecheman was carrying a barefooted child.
"DCI Redwood said police ruled out the Tanner sighting shortly after learning a night creche had been in operation at the resort.
When they traced families that used it they discovered a dad who had picked up his daughter that night matched the description in the Tanner sighting. He added: “I would say it was a revelation moment.” https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/1062739/two-name-suspect/
Crecheman was one of a very small contingent of parents who used the night creche on 3 May 2007.
The children whose parents had used the night creche were signed in and they were signed out. The nannies who knew and looked after the children in the night creche and who helped in the search for Madeleine would have had that information to hand. That information was available to the initial investigation for cross checking in 2007 ... which is apparently what Scotland Yard did in 2013.
If the initial investigation had exercised that same diligence they would have found that snippet of information way back then. But from investigators who had no experience of missing children investigation and described:"From the word go, they did not take this crime seriously." http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2017/05/11/madeleine-mccann-olive-press-editor-talks-first-journalist-scene-10th-anniversary-disappearance/ and who also failed to visit residents living in close proximity, for example Moyes and Fenn ~ perhaps such an obvious line of inquiry didn't even suggest itself.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 19, 2017, 01:21:47 AM
That may explain why Tannerman is still featured on the OFM website, as Brietta previously posted. Top policeman do not work on assumptions or "almost certain" because there is room for error.
The police know exactly who and where Crecheman is without a doubt. I think the problem they may have is in locating Tannerman.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 19, 2017, 02:23:26 AM
Nope. The individual seen by Jane was male so as far as that goes the gender is not an issue. The initial destination and subsequent destinations might answer your question Robitty; but if the police know anything about that they certainly are playing it very close to the chest; and rightly so.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 19, 2017, 08:09:50 AM
Nope. The individual seen by Jane was male so as far as that goes the gender is not an issue. The initial destination and subsequent destinations might answer your question Robitty; but if the police know anything about that they certainly are playing it very close to the chest; and rightly so.
Ever since Jane described the person she saw as an individual I have stuck to the gender-less term.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 19, 2017, 08:25:18 AM
Ever since Jane described the person she saw as an individual I have stuck to the gender-less term.
Jane Tanner is the eye witness and is in absolutely no doubt the person she saw was male. I feel there is really no need to confuse the issue with gender neutral terminology when the witness is in no doubt about what she saw.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 19, 2017, 08:35:56 AM
Jane Tanner is the eye witness and is in absolutely no doubt the person she saw was male. I feel there is really no need to confuse the issue with gender neutral terminology when the witness is in no doubt about what she saw.
Wasn't there doubts expressed by Goncalo Amaral as to what Jane saw? I can hardly follow GA as to what he thinks Jane was seeing.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 19, 2017, 09:03:49 AM
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=963
"When Jane Tanner, who leaves the restaurant to go and see her daughter and passes by them ..." "and sees a man with a child in his lap at the end of the street ...." "So she says from here up to there, there on the road in the first version she ...." "says she saw the feet and the man at a glance, cannot describe but after that her testimony grows all along ..." "It has been enriched over the years. But the point for us it did not happen because ..." " they (Gerry and Jeremiah) did not see her, .... "and the question is what happened, and what happened everyday .... there was no reason ...." " to go that day and hour up here, the access through this area between ...." " the restaurant area and swimming pools. Rear of the inhabited apartment which is ..." "here ahead, so it was the shortest and most comfortable access and did not pass through the other side ..." "Female reporter: And the balconies themselves have street access, they are not walled ..." Amaral: "These are the entrances here, with the little gardens, the access to the back ..." "doors that were all open. This is all about how to access the apartments ..." "as the father (Gerry) of the child said it is the question of proving that the children ..." "were safe. They were all closed and you could only access ... "the apartments by the main door, which is a lie. They accessed the apartments and did so through the back doors ....
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1051
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2017, 09:04:45 AM
"DCI Redwood said police ruled out the Tanner sighting shortly after learning a night creche had been in operation at the resort.
When they traced families that used it they discovered a dad who had picked up his daughter that night matched the description in the Tanner sighting. He added: “I would say it was a revelation moment.” https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/1062739/two-name-suspect/
Crecheman was one of a very small contingent of parents who used the night creche on 3 May 2007.
The children whose parents had used the night creche were signed in and they were signed out. The nannies who knew and looked after the children in the night creche and who helped in the search for Madeleine would have had that information to hand. That information was available to the initial investigation for cross checking in 2007 ... which is apparently what Scotland Yard did in 2013.
If the initial investigation had exercised that same diligence they would have found that snippet of information way back then. But from investigators who had no experience of missing children investigation and described:"From the word go, they did not take this crime seriously." http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2017/05/11/madeleine-mccann-olive-press-editor-talks-first-journalist-scene-10th-anniversary-disappearance/ and who also failed to visit residents living in close proximity, for example Moyes and Fenn ~ perhaps such an obvious line of inquiry didn't even suggest itself.
There is no evidence that children were signed in and out of the night creche. There is no evidence that OG managed to unearth such a sheet years afterwards.
Is there evidence that the Portuguese police didn't call on people? Also, people don't always talk about the important stuff. Jeremy Wilkins was an important witness, but he had no idea. When he contacted the police on the Friday it was to tell them he'd seen a suspicious person the night before. Interesting how that story changed over time; 4th May while he was in the "TAPAS" restaurant, he noted that a person of around 1.70m, with long blond hair, apparently of the "Rasta," style and dressed in green military-style clothes, entered the restaurant.
Or; 7th May I was pushing the pram around the complex and went to the toilet near the bar. I could not see inside the restaurant. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
Or; 8th April 2008 I saw a man that was coming from the road and was headed to the reception. I believe that he was with a woman but I cannot be precise of any detail about her. It was a tall Caucasian man, with blonde hair in 'rasta style' tied with a band instead of free flowing. When I arrived, I headed to the WC near the pool area. He also was in the WC but appeared to be a taking a long time. I do not remember if he was still in that place when I left. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 19, 2017, 09:05:09 AM
Wasn't there doubts expressed by Goncalo Amaral as to what Jane saw? I can hardly follow GA as to what he thinks Jane was seeing.
In chapter 7 of his book (the one starting with the shitzu demise) he expresses exactly what is his interpretation of what Jane saw. It is utter balderdash which has nonetheless passed into the lexicon of misinformation he generated about the case. That is not opinion ... that is fact.
Much of which is reinforced in O Enigma.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2017, 10:11:55 AM
In chapter 7 of his book (the one starting with the shitzu demise) he expresses exactly what is his interpretation of what Jane saw. It is utter balderdash which has nonetheless passed into the lexicon of misinformation he generated about the case. That is not opinion ... that is fact.
Much of which is reinforced in O Enigma.
I can't find an interpretation of what Jane saw in Chapter 7. 8(8-)) Dare I ask for a quote of this utter balderdash?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 19, 2017, 10:21:42 AM
I can't find an interpretation of what Jane saw in Chapter 7. 8(8-)) Dare I ask for a quote of this utter balderdash?
It's utter balderdash to claim that JT made a FORMAL identification of Murat. If she had there would a FORMAL signed witness statement from her to that effect. Her identification of Murat would have been the prime reason given in the Final report as to why he was made an arguido imo. So why wasn't it?
Why doesn't Amaral explain in his book why he sent JT home at a time when it would be absolutely vital that a witness statement from her claiming Murat as 'definitely' being the man she saw would be required as a matter of urgency. After all - this was without doubt the most important piece of evidence he had against Murat.
Where are the statements from the PJ officers with her - who could also confirm that she had made a positive identification - if she had?
Once again he omits key parts of what happened in order to manipulate his readers into thinking what he wants them to think happened rather than what I think happened.
AIMHO
Must go out now....
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2017, 11:30:39 AM
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1051 He seems to rewrite her statement as if it was jello.
He is speculating as others have. Heriberto Janosch speculates that her sighting happened later than she said, for example. The first time her sighting is mentioned by Gerry the passageway is mentioned too, so Amaral has some basis for thinking that's where she was when she saw the man and child.
At about 21.20, their friend Jane passed by the apartment (along the corridor of the main entrance) she saw an individual carrying a child http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm#p15p3862
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2017, 11:32:42 AM
It's utter balderdash to claim that JT made a FORMAL identification of Murat. If she had there would a FORMAL signed witness statement from her to that effect. Her identification of Murat would have been the prime reason given in the Final report as to why he was made an arguido imo. So why wasn't it?
Why doesn't Amaral explain in his book why he sent JT home at a time when it would be absolutely vital that a witness statement from her claiming Murat as 'definitely' being the man she saw would be required as a matter of urgency. After all - this was without doubt the most important piece of evidence he had against Murat.
Where are the statements from the PJ officers with her - who could also confirm that she had made a positive identification - if she had?
Once again he omits key parts of what happened in order to manipulate his readers into thinking what he wants them to think happened rather than what actually did happen.
I believe it's called 'lying by omission' in legal circles. (from memory)
AIMHO
Must go out now....
Are the PJ allowed to arrange such covert identifications? Did the PJ arrange it? If they did why wasn't it documented in the files? In my opinion this had far more to do with the British than the Portuguese. I think Amaral could just have been repeating what he had been told.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 19, 2017, 12:35:29 PM
IMO Amaral has changed the direction of the Tannerman sighting because the man JT saw has been proven to exist by SY using Crecheman's own revelation. However, Amaral still implied that JT was mistaken in what she witnessed. Is this another indication that Crecheman was really returning to Block 4 & that Amaral had prior knowledge of the information Crecheman provided?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2017, 12:43:40 PM
IMO Amaral has changed the direction of the Tannerman sighting because the man JT saw has been proven to exist by SY using Crecheman's own revelation. However, Amaral still implied that JT was mistaken in what she witnessed. Is this another indication that Crecheman was really returning to Block 4 & that Amaral had prior knowledge of the information Crecheman provided?
Or is it wishful thinking on your part ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 19, 2017, 12:48:36 PM
No, Stephen, it's not. I have a lot more in my theory, all of which makes perfect sense. Why do you think Amaral changed Tannerman's direction of travel in O Enigma?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 19, 2017, 12:59:38 PM
No, Stephen, it's not. I have a lot more in my theory, all of which makes perfect sense. Why do you think Amaral changed Tannerman's direction of travel in O Enigma?
Tell us?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 19, 2017, 01:05:29 PM
Not all of it can be posted on site. I would be interested to hear why others think Amaral has changed the direction of Tannerman's travel, given that SY never confirmed that particular aspect of Jane's sighting was incorrect/mistaken.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 19, 2017, 01:07:08 PM
Not all of it can be posted on site. I would be interested to hear why others think Amaral has changed the direction of Tannerman's travel, given that SY never confirmed that particular aspect of Jane's sighting was incorrect/mistaken.
Why is that?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 19, 2017, 01:13:31 PM
Please desist. Misty has given an explanation of why she feels unable to expand on her theory; that should be sufficient for you. You are verging on goading.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2017, 03:21:46 PM
IMO Amaral has changed the direction of the Tannerman sighting because the man JT saw has been proven to exist by SY using Crecheman's own revelation. However, Amaral still implied that JT was mistaken in what she witnessed. Is this another indication that Crecheman was really returning to Block 4 & that Amaral had prior knowledge of the information Crecheman provided?
Policemen hypothesise then their hypotheses change according to the evidence which emerges. I see no reason why Amaral's theories shouldn't change, so why do you?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 19, 2017, 03:31:46 PM
Policemen hypothesise then their hypotheses change according to the evidence which emerges. I see no reason why Amaral's theories shouldn't change, so why do you?
What evidence do you think he used to change Tannerman's direction of travel from Jane's witness statements, having used those same statements as evidence in his book/DVD?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
What evidence do you think he used to change Tannerman's direction of travel from Jane's witness statements, having used those same statements as evidence in his book/DVD?
Perhaps he's been googling and thinking since 2008?
I think she saw Gerry and Jez at 21:15, but she saw the abductor with Madeleine at 21:45.......The abductor went directly from Jane sighting place to the Smiths sighting place, without waiting during a "25 minutes time gap" http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 19, 2017, 05:35:09 PM
Perhaps he's been googling and thinking since 2008?
I think she saw Gerry and Jez at 21:15, but she saw the abductor with Madeleine at 21:45.......The abductor went directly from Jane sighting place to the Smiths sighting place, without waiting during a "25 minutes time gap" http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
Yet you used the reverse answer in #104 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8237.msg423329#msg423329
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 19, 2017, 07:28:14 PM
He is speculating as others have. Heriberto Janosch speculates that her sighting happened later than she said, for example. The first time her sighting is mentioned by Gerry the passageway is mentioned too, so Amaral has some basis for thinking that's where she was when she saw the man and child.
At about 21.20, their friend Jane passed by the apartment (along the corridor of the main entrance) she saw an individual carrying a child http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR_MARTINS.htm#p15p3862
An important report by Vitor Martins on 4 May which seems to tie in with Silvia Batista's statement (Jane saw the man/child passing in front of Madeleine's bedroom window). The main entrance is the car park side.
"At about 21.30 their friend Mat entered the apartment by the back door (patio door) he did not enter the bedroom and only saw the twins sleeping, he did not notice anything strange."
Date: 2007/05/04 : Service Information
To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
From: Vitor Martins, Inspector
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 19, 2017, 08:20:58 PM
In chapter 7 of his book (the one starting with the shitzu demise) he expresses exactly what is his interpretation of what Jane saw. It is utter balderdash which has nonetheless passed into the lexicon of misinformation he generated about the case. That is not opinion ... that is fact.
Much of which is reinforced in O Enigma.
I take it that the extract below is the bit you refer to as balderdash Brie?
Goncalo Amaral - Chapter 7 - Truth of the lie.
JANE TANNER FORMALLY RECOGNISES ROBERT MURAT Before the search, we want to assure ourselves that Jane Tanner recognises him as the individual she saw on the night of the disappearance. She is sitting inside an unmarked car, whose tinted windows allow her to see out without being spotted. The vehicle is parked at the exact spot where she was on the night of May 3rd. Robert Murat, anonymous amongst plain clothes police officers, goes up the road in the same way as the alleged abductor. Jane Tanner is adamant: it certainly is Robert Murat that she saw that night. She definitely recognises his way of walking. But does he resemble the description she painted previously?
Has Jane Tanner ever denied this version of events? Is there any reason why this version of events is false?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 20, 2017, 12:33:26 AM
Goncalo Amaral - Chapter 8 - Truth of the lie
At this time, images of Robert Murat - considered to be the main suspect - begin to be circulated all over the world. After they return to Ireland, the Smiths continue to follow the case. They learn that, according to Jane Tanner's statements, Murat is definitely the man encountered on the night of the abduction. Mr Smith then gets in touch with the Irish police to relate what he saw on the night of May 3rd. He insists, categorically, that the man they came across with the little girl in his arms was not Robert Murat. He is sure of it because he knows him.
Had Murat not become a suspect does anyone think the Smiths would even have bothered to come forward?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 12:53:59 AM
At this time, images of Robert Murat - considered to be the main suspect - begin to be circulated all over the world. After they return to Ireland, the Smiths continue to follow the case. They learn that, according to Jane Tanner's statements, Murat is definitely the man encountered on the night of the abduction. Mr Smith then gets in touch with the Irish police to relate what he saw on the night of May 3rd. He insists, categorically, that the man they came across with the little girl in his arms was not Robert Murat. He is sure of it because he knows him.
Had Murat not become a suspect does anyone think the Smiths would even have bothered to come forward?
I definitely don't think they would have. The question is - why did MS equate the man he allegedly saw with Murat?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 20, 2017, 01:33:00 AM
I take it that the extract below is the bit you refer to as balderdash Brie?
Goncalo Amaral - Chapter 7 - Truth of the lie.
JANE TANNER FORMALLY RECOGNISES ROBERT MURAT Before the search, we want to assure ourselves that Jane Tanner recognises him as the individual she saw on the night of the disappearance. She is sitting inside an unmarked car, whose tinted windows allow her to see out without being spotted. The vehicle is parked at the exact spot where she was on the night of May 3rd. Robert Murat, anonymous amongst plain clothes police officers, goes up the road in the same way as the alleged abductor. Jane Tanner is adamant: it certainly is Robert Murat that she saw that night. She definitely recognises his way of walking. But does he resemble the description she painted previously?
Has Jane Tanner ever denied this version of events? Is there any reason why this version of events is false?
I don't know about false, but it's certainly peculiar. It begins with Bob Small ringing Jane, who he'd never met before;
‘I need to pick you up and take you to see the Spanish Police but you can’t tell anybody not even Russell’
Jane panics; is it the press, is it the abductor? So she does tell Russell in case someone wants to kidnap her. I think it's strange for a senior policeman to ring someone without properly identifying and explaining himself and getting his story wrong. Why didn't Jane ask him what he was talking about, Spanish police? I would have.
Despite her fears and suspicions, however, Jane agrees to meet this stranger in a car park. Where that is she doesn't say, but her route takes her past Murat's house. I can't see any car parks jumping out at me near there, but that's what she says. Murat speaks to them but she isn't interested because she's 'worried sick' about being abducted. I have to say that in her shoes I wouldn't have gone anywhere near this potential abductor without further checks on his identity.
She meets Bob Small (with Russell for protection) and Russell writes down the number plate of the car they drive off in. So this stranger drives away with your partner but it's OK because you've got the registration of his car. How long was Russell going to wait before reporting her kidnapped I wonder? One hour, two hours, all night? Would a kidnapper still be in that car? Would his victim?
Jane is driven to where the 'rest of the team' are with a van which is pretending to be refrigerated. Not an unmarked car, which is what Amaral thinks she's in, so he wasn't there. Who the rest of the team were no-one says. Spanish, Portuguese, British? We don't know.
Jane never denies identifying Murat. She splutters and waffles but she never categorically denies it. Interestingly, the interviewer doesn't ask the question either. At the end the question is;
4078 “You don’t feel it was the same person?” Reply “No, I don’t, no”.
Later in her interview though;
I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”. 4078 “No”. Reply “But I just thought it was”.
I don't know about false, but it's certainly peculiar. It begins with Bob Small ringing Jane, who he'd never met before;
‘I need to pick you up and take you to see the Spanish Police but you can’t tell anybody not even Russell’
Jane panics; is it the press, is it the abductor? So she does tell Russell in case someone wants to kidnap her. I think it's strange for a senior policeman to ring someone without properly identifying and explaining himself and getting his story wrong. Why didn't Jane ask him what he was talking about, Spanish police? I would have.
Despite her fears and suspicions, however, Jane agrees to meet this stranger in a car park. Where that is she doesn't say, but her route takes her past Murat's house. I can't see any car parks jumping out at me near there, but that's what she says. Murat speaks to them but she isn't interested because she's 'worried sick' about being abducted. I have to say that in her shoes I wouldn't have gone anywhere near this potential abductor without further checks on his identity.
She meets Bob Small (with Russell for protection) and Russell writes down the number plate of the car they drive off in. So this stranger drives away with your partner but it's OK because you've got the registration of his car. How long was Russell going to wait before reporting her kidnapped I wonder? One hour, two hours, all night? Would a kidnapper still be in that car? Would his victim?
Jane is driven to where the 'rest of the team' are with a van which is pretending to be refrigerated. Not an unmarked car, which is what Amaral thinks she's in, so he wasn't there. Who the rest of the team were no-one says. Spanish, Portuguese, British? We don't know.
Jane never denies identifying Murat. She splutters and waffles but she never categorically denies it. Interestingly, the interviewer doesn't ask the question either. At the end the question is;
4078 “You don’t feel it was the same person?” Reply “No, I don’t, no”.
Later in her interview though;
I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”. 4078 “No”. Reply “But I just thought it was”.
IMO the wording in bold is an unfinished sentence and should have ended with a series of full stops............ and not just one full stop.
There are other examples of the typist failing to do this in JT's statement.
Having just stated that she didn't think it was RM that she saw - JT would hardly then contradict herself immediately after. That makes no sense. And if the interviewing officer thought she had just contradicted herself - surely she would have asked Jane for clarification at that point.
IMO Jane is referring to the decision to contact Bob Small and not to RM.
From Kate's book re the IP Quote It was perhaps telling that Jane had not been required to sign anything, since the absence of documentary evidence to the contrary allowed claims to be made later that she had identified Murat as the man she'd seen on 3rd May. This was completely untrue, Jane would've loved to have been able to make a definite identification, because it might have helped the investigation, but the fact is she couldn't. The set-up was so inadequate that she was unable even to recognise Murat as the man she had met half and hour earlier, let alone say with any certainty that he was the one she had see ten days before. End quote
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 20, 2017, 11:20:15 AM
IMO the wording in bold is an unfinished sentence and should have ended with a series of full stops............ and not just one full stop.
There are other examples of the typist failing to do this in JT's statement.
Having just stated that she didn't think it was RM that she saw - JT would hardly then contradict herself immediately after. That makes no sense. And if the interviewing officer thought she had just contradicted herself - surely she would have asked Jane for clarification at that point.
IMO Jane is referring to the decision to contact Bob Small and not to RM.
From Kate's book re the IP Quote It was perhaps telling that Jane had not been required to sign anything, since the absence of documentary evidence to the contrary allowed claims to be made later that she had identified Murat as the man she'd seen on 3rd May. This was completely untrue, Jane would've loved to have been able to make a definite identification, because it might have helped the investigation, but the fact is she couldn't. The set-up was so inadequate that she was unable even to recognise Murat as the man she had met half and hour earlier, let alone say with any certainty that he was the one she had see ten days before. End quote
You do realize, of course, there is no onus to believe everything 'written' in Kate Mccann's book.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 20, 2017, 11:26:30 AM
IMO the wording in bold is an unfinished sentence and should have ended with a series of full stops............ and not just one full stop.
There are other examples of the typist failing to do this in JT's statement.
Having just stated that she didn't think it was RM that she saw - JT would hardly then contradict herself immediately after. That makes no sense. And if the interviewing officer thought she had just contradicted herself - surely she would have asked Jane for clarification at that point.
IMO Jane is referring to the decision to contact Bob Small and not to RM.
From Kate's book re the IP Quote It was perhaps telling that Jane had not been required to sign anything, since the absence of documentary evidence to the contrary allowed claims to be made later that she had identified Murat as the man she'd seen on 3rd May. This was completely untrue, Jane would've loved to have been able to make a definite identification, because it might have helped the investigation, but the fact is she couldn't. The set-up was so inadequate that she was unable even to recognise Murat as the man she had met half and hour earlier, let alone say with any certainty that he was the one she had see ten days before. End quote
So what are your points?
In your opinion there should be more than one full stop. In your opinion Jane contradicted herself. In your opinion the interviewer would have mentioned that. In your opinion Jane was talking about something completely different. Finally, you give us Kate's opinion.
Thank you for all the opinions. Do you have any actual evidence that your opinions are correct?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2017, 11:34:24 AM
I take it that the extract below is the bit you refer to as balderdash Brie?
Goncalo Amaral - Chapter 7 - Truth of the lie.
JANE TANNER FORMALLY RECOGNISES ROBERT MURAT Before the search, we want to assure ourselves that Jane Tanner recognises him as the individual she saw on the night of the disappearance. She is sitting inside an unmarked car, whose tinted windows allow her to see out without being spotted. The vehicle is parked at the exact spot where she was on the night of May 3rd. Robert Murat, anonymous amongst plain clothes police officers, goes up the road in the same way as the alleged abductor. Jane Tanner is adamant: it certainly is Robert Murat that she saw that night. She definitely recognises his way of walking. But does he resemble the description she painted previously?
Has Jane Tanner ever denied this version of events? Is there any reason why this version of events is false?
Jane Tanner has never deviated from the initial description she gave to the police ... including the fact she didn't see the man's face. IMO She has never identified Murat as that man ... and why Amaral makes the claim that she did is puzzling to say the least.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2017, 11:43:52 AM
At this time, images of Robert Murat - considered to be the main suspect - begin to be circulated all over the world. After they return to Ireland, the Smiths continue to follow the case. They learn that, according to Jane Tanner's statements, Murat is definitely the man encountered on the night of the abduction. Mr Smith then gets in touch with the Irish police to relate what he saw on the night of May 3rd. He insists, categorically, that the man they came across with the little girl in his arms was not Robert Murat. He is sure of it because he knows him.
Had Murat not become a suspect does anyone think the Smiths would even have bothered to come forward?
3 May 2007: the Smith family pass a man carrying a child
15 May 2007: Robert Murat is declared arguido
16 May 2007: the Smith’s recall their sighting of the 3rd
26 May 2007: three of the Smith family return to Portugal; in their statements they affirm they would be unable to recognise the individual they saw … but Martin Smith says it definitely was not Murat.
In my opinion if Murat had not been constituted Arguido we would never have heard of the Smith family sighting on the third ... nor would we have heard of the later addition to Martin Smith's statement after Gerry McCann was constituted arguido identifying him as the man he previously affirmed he was unable to identify.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 11:48:14 AM
I do. Why did MS come forward with his family to report the sighting of a man they wouldn't be able to recognise again, only to slip in the remark that the man definitely wasn't Robert Murat? No-one had suggested it was, as no-one had previously seen this man - unless MS was equating him to the description of Tannerman or the news report that the police thought Tannerman was Murat. Why would RM have needed an "alibi" in the Tannerman scenario if he was at home with his mother? Why would MS think he needed an "alibi"? When it comes to the Smiths, I am reminded of Tom Cruise's lightbulb moment in "A Few Good Men". The Smith children were reportedly terrified, the resort was buzzing with press, police & searchers, people passing out fliers, gossip - yet the remaining Smiths, including Aoife did......absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2017, 11:49:44 AM
I do. Why did MS come forward with his family to report the sighting of a man they wouldn't be able to recognise again, only to slip in the remark that the man definitely wasn't Robert Murat? No-one had suggested it was, as no-one had previously seen this man - unless MS was equating him to the description of Tannerman or the news report that the police thought Tannerman was Murat. Why would RM have needed an "alibi" in the Tannerman scenario if he was at home with his mother? Why would MS think he needed an "alibi"? When it comes to the Smiths, I am reminded of Tom Cruise's lightbulb moment in "A Few Good Men". The Smith children were reportedly terrified, the resort was buzzing with press, police & searchers, people passing out fliers, gossip - yet the remaining Smiths, including Aoife did......absolutely nothing.
By the time the Smiths were interviewed Murat was an arguido. It would have been a dereliction of duty for the police not to ask if the man MS saw was Murat.
It always makes me wonder why supporters put so much effort into discrediting the Smith sighting.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2017, 12:08:17 PM
3 May 2007: the Smith family pass a man carrying a child
15 May 2007: Robert Murat is declared arguido
16 May 2007: the Smith’s recall their sighting of the 3rd
26 May 2007: three of the Smith family return to Portugal; in their statements they affirm they would be unable to recognise the individual they saw … but Martin Smith says it definitely was not Murat.
In my opinion if Murat had not been constituted Arguido we would never have heard of the Smith family sighting on the third ... nor would we have heard of the later addition to Martin Smith's statement after Gerry McCann was constituted arguido identifying him as the man he previously affirmed he was unable to identify.
That's very close to a certain Mr Bennett's opinion about the Smiths. I wonder why the perfectly trained professional Metropolitan police detectives used those e-fits?..............
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on September 20, 2017, 12:11:08 PM
In your opinion there should be more than one full stop. In your opinion Jane contradicted herself. In your opinion the interviewer would have mentioned that. In your opinion Jane was talking about something completely different. Finally, you give us Kate's opinion.
Thank you for all the opinions. Do you have any actual evidence that your opinions are correct?
Here is evidence of unfinished sentences that are incorrectly typed as whole sentences in this statement: QUOTE
4078 “So you don’t feel, in your heart of hearts”. (an unfinished sentence - but ending in a full stop)
4078 “You don’t feel it was the same person?”
Reply “No, I don’t, no”.
End quote.
QUOTE
Reply “I know, the problem is, it’s just getting the Press and the”. (an unfinished sentence but ending in a full stop)
End quote
IMO that should have been typed as ''I know, the problem is, it's just getting the Press and the...'' (an unfinished sentence - therefore ending in several full stops)
QUOTE
Reply “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
4078 “No”. Reply “But I just thought it was”. (an unfinished sentence but ending in a full stop)
End quote
IMO it is out of context with the existing discussion for JT to be referring to RM at that point in the interview.
AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 20, 2017, 12:11:50 PM
By the time the Smiths were interviewed Murat was an arguido. It would have been a dereliction of duty for the police not to ask if the man MS saw was Murat.
It always makes me wonder why supporters put so much effort into discrediting the Smith sighting.
Are you really? Its because the Smith sighting is contrary to the McCann narrative and so cannot possibly be allowed any credibility - IMO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 20, 2017, 12:20:15 PM
Are you really? Its because the Smith sighting is contrary to the McCann narrative and so cannot possibly be allowed any credibility - IMO
You fail to see that, after the removal of Tannerman by SY, the mere presence of an unidentified Smithman works very favourably for the McCann narrative & very unfavourably for the Amaral thesis.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 20, 2017, 12:30:50 PM
You fail to see that, after the removal of Tannerman by SY, the mere presence of an unidentified Smithman works very favourably for the McCann narrative & very unfavourably for the Amaral thesis.
Not particularly interested in the Amaral thesis, but if Smithman is so favourable to the McCann cause, then why is he not prominently featured on their website in preference to Tannerman ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 20, 2017, 12:35:38 PM
You fail to see that, after the removal of Tannerman by SY, the mere presence of an unidentified Smithman works very favourably for the McCann narrative & very unfavourably for the Amaral thesis.
Not really.
That is merely your opinion.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 12:36:24 PM
Not particularly interested in the Amaral thesis, but if Smithman is so favourable to the McCann cause, then why is he not prominently featured on their website in preference to Tannerman ?
Just because the sighting works favourably for the cause doesn't necessarily mean it is the most important. If JT has reservations about SY's announcement re. her sighting then I'm sure she will have expressed them to the McCanns - hence Tannerman still featuring prominently on the website. IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2017, 12:37:09 PM
Tanner's behaviour during the van incident clearly shows a great deal about her personality.
Even when she had no idea what she was being told was true and fearful for her safety she was still willing to take part in the 'van' incident. To me this suggests a rather malleable personality who when faced with authority, or someone with a more forceful personality, accedes easily to their requests even though to do so may not be the best decision for her personally.
Her willingness in the Oakley tape recorded interviews, shown in Channel 5's The McCanns and the Conman, to agree that Tannerman was the the George Harrison lookalike shown to her only strengthens this sense of malleability.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 12:38:57 PM
Just because the sighting works favourably for the cause doesn't necessarily mean it is the most important. If JT has reservations about SY's announcement re. her sighting then I'm sure she will have expressed them to the McCanns - hence Tannerman still featuring prominently on the website. IMO.
If Tanner has reservations why isn't she talking to SY rather than the McCanns ? Further if SY haven't taken action on those reservations what does that say about how credible a witness they find her ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 12:52:42 PM
If Tanner has reservations why isn't she talking to SY rather than the McCanns ? Further if SY haven't taken action on those reservations what does that say about how credible a witness they find her ?
SY found JT very credible if THEY are satisfied she saw a man & they have now identified that man as "almost certainly" an innocent holidaymaker. JT would not have been told what Crecheman had said to SY. SY are conducting the investigation, not JT or the McCanns so what is put on the OFM website is their business. IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 20, 2017, 01:02:50 PM
By the time the Smiths were interviewed Murat was an arguido. It would have been a dereliction of duty for the police not to ask if the man MS saw was Murat.
It always makes me wonder why supporters put so much effort into discrediting the Smith sighting.
It's as plain as the nose on your face why the Smith sighting has always been played down and for the very same reason that the famous Smith e-fits never saw the light of day for years. Is anyone still in the dark?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2017, 01:05:28 PM
SY found JT very credible if THEY are satisfied she saw a man & they have now identified that man as "almost certainly" an innocent holidaymaker. JT would not have been told what Crecheman had said to SY. SY are conducting the investigation, not JT or the McCanns so what is put on the OFM website is their business. IMO.
When the taxpayer has paid over £11 million pounds into an investigation which has eliminated Tannerman as a suspect yet the OFM seem to be actively undermining that investigation by still having Tannerman as a POI that is everyone's business.
The McCanns cannnot demand that the investigation into their child's disappearance be reopened then actively undermine that same investigation's findings when it doesn't suit. SY must certainly be questioning their behaviour.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 20, 2017, 01:05:38 PM
On the contrary, OG don't believe a word of Tannerman, but are unable to prove it, so have invented Crecheman in order to do away with Tannerman. Tanner cannot contradict OG as their construction matches Tanner's description.
Totally imo of course.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2017, 01:05:58 PM
It's as plain as the nose on your face why the Smith sighting has always been played down and for the very same reason that the famous Smith e-fits never saw the light of day for years. Is anyone still in the dark?
The question was rhetorical John.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: stephen25000 on September 20, 2017, 01:10:21 PM
It's as plain as the nose on your face why the Smith sighting has always been played down and for the very same reason that the famous Smith e-fits never saw the light of day for years. Is anyone still in the dark?
Amaral thought the sighting was so important after secretly flying the Smiths to Portugal, taking their statements & doing a reconstruction he did......absolutely nothing; at least, not until MS suddenly decided the sighting was Gerry. Credit due to Rebelo in Oct, 2007 for arranging for the Smiths' timeline to be checked out by sending officers to The Dolphin & Kelly's bar......yet Amaral was only interested in The Tapas 9's timeline.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2017, 01:12:00 PM
On the contrary, OG don't believe a word of Tannerman, but are unable to prove it, so have invented Crecheman in order to do away with Tannerman. Tanner cannot contradict OG as their construction matches Tanner's description.
Totally imo of course.
And IMO too Jassi.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 01:16:02 PM
When the taxpayer has paid over £11 million pounds into an investigation which has eliminated Tannerman as a suspect yet the OFM seem to be actively undermining that investigation by still having Tannerman as a POI that is everyone's business.
The McCanns cannnot demand that the investigation into their child's disappearance be reopened then actively undermine that same investigation's findings when it doesn't suit. SY must certainly be questioning their behaviour.
How are the McCanns undermining the SY investigation when SY have not officially said they are no longer looking for Tannerman, merely that they are "almost certain the man JT saw was an innocent holidaymaker & not the abductor?" (Notice the words "the abductor").
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2017, 01:27:53 PM
Here is evidence of unfinished sentences that are incorrectly typed as whole sentences in this statement: QUOTE
4078 “So you don’t feel, in your heart of hearts”. (an unfinished sentence - but ending in a full stop)
4078 “You don’t feel it was the same person?”
Reply “No, I don’t, no”.
End quote.
QUOTE
Reply “I know, the problem is, it’s just getting the Press and the”. (an unfinished sentence but ending in a full stop)
End quote
IMO that should have been typed as ''I know, the problem is, it's just getting the Press and the...'' (an unfinished sentence - therefore ending in several full stops)
QUOTE
Reply “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
4078 “No”. Reply “But I just thought it was”. (an unfinished sentence but ending in a full stop)
End quote
IMO it is out of context with the existing discussion for JT to be referring to RM at that point in the interview.
AIMHO
Can you prove those sentences are unfinished? You can't, so you're speculating. Even if they are, so what? People leave sentences unfinished for all sorts of reasons.
I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
4078 “No”. Reply “But I just thought it was”.
Jane says she doesn't think it was him that she saw. She's referring to what she thinks at present, during the interview. Then she tells us what she thought in the past; she thought then that it was him.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2017, 01:34:33 PM
How are the McCanns undermining the SY investigation when SY have not officially said they are no longer looking for Tannerman, merely that they are "almost certain the man JT saw was an innocent holidaymaker & not the abductor?" (Notice the words "the abductor").
So are SY still publicising Tannerman ? If there was any doubt that Crecheman is the man Tanner saw ( let's suspend belief) don't you think he would still be on SY's website along with Smithman. Surely it would be a dereliction of their duty not to have him there ?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 01:39:35 PM
So are SY still publicising Tannerman ? If there was any doubt that Crecheman is the man Tanner saw ( let's suspend belief) don't you think he would still be on SY's website along with Smithman. Surely it would be a dereliction of their duty not to have him there ?
Do you have a link to the images SY are currently appealing for information about, please?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 20, 2017, 01:42:37 PM
Interestingly, the Madeleine reward page has been removed from the Metropolitan Police website. The original link now directs to the Met Home page. Seems the Crimestoppers site has also removed all reference to any reward.
Previously
"The Metropolitan Police Service is offering a reward of up to £20,000 for information leading to the identification, arrest and prosecution of the person(s) responsible for the abduction of Madeleine McCann from Praia da Luz Portugal on the 3rd May 2003."
Interestingly, the Madeleine reward page has been removed from the Metropolitan Police website. The original link now directs to the Met Home page. Seems the Crimestoppers site has also removed all reference to any reward.
Previously
"The Metropolitan Police Service is offering a reward of up to £20,000 for information leading to the identification, arrest and prosecution of the person(s) responsible for the abduction of Madeleine McCann from Praia da Luz Portugal on the 3rd May 2003."
3 May 2007: the Smith family pass a man carrying a child
15 May 2007: Robert Murat is declared arguido
16 May 2007: the Smith’s recall their sighting of the 3rd
26 May 2007: three of the Smith family return to Portugal; in their statements they affirm they would be unable to recognise the individual they saw … but Martin Smith says it definitely was not Murat.
In my opinion if Murat had not been constituted Arguido we would never have heard of the Smith family sighting on the third ... nor would we have heard of the later addition to Martin Smith's statement after Gerry McCann was constituted arguido identifying him as the man he previously affirmed he was unable to identify.
Based on that Amaral would IMO have been chuffed that he had made Robert Murat an arguido, or else Martin Smith and Co. would not have came forward.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 07:22:51 PM
Based on that Amaral would IMO have been chuffed that he had made Robert Murat an arguido, or else Martin Smith and Co. would not have came forward.
The Smiths provided him with another potential abductor - a lead which seemed to be steadfastly ignored until such time the lead implicated Gerry McCann. After Amaral was removed from the investigation it appears the PJ could find no evidence that Smithman was Gerry so there was still another potential abductor in the equation when the case was archived
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 20, 2017, 07:35:37 PM
3 May 2007: the Smith family pass a man carrying a child
15 May 2007: Robert Murat is declared arguido
16 May 2007: the Smith’s recall their sighting of the 3rd
26 May 2007: three of the Smith family return to Portugal; in their statements they affirm they would be unable to recognise the individual they saw … but Martin Smith says it definitely was not Murat.
In my opinion if Murat had not been constituted Arguido we would never have heard of the Smith family sighting on the third ... nor would we have heard of the later addition to Martin Smith's statement after Gerry McCann was constituted arguido identifying him as the man he previously affirmed he was unable to identify.
I tend to agree, isn't it marvellous what brings some witnesses out of the dark?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2017, 08:46:08 PM
The Smiths provided him with another potential abductor - a lead which seemed to be steadfastly ignored until such time the lead implicated Gerry McCann. After Amaral was removed from the investigation it appears the PJ could find no evidence that Smithman was Gerry so there was still another potential abductor in the equation when the case was archived
There is some talk that Amaral thought that the Smith sighting was a ruse. I'm not too sure how that worked, but if he thought the whole thing was some sort of false news (using a more modern term) I can see why he wasn't getting his teeth into it. What makes you certain that the Smith sighting was genuine? I think it was a genuine sighting but to me it only makes sense if the Smiths didn't care that Madeleine was missing. They seemed more concerned that Robert Murat wasn't blamed for it. They seem to be more concerned to have the same story across the family rather than making their own statements. IMO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 20, 2017, 09:10:56 PM
There was a lot of emphasis of how uncomfortable Gerry was at carrying Sean off the plane after their return home. The footage of that is covered in a low resolution video clip in this YT starting around here https://youtu.be/WWyjVmxWzDY?t=974 I have played it through several times and Sean does not look uncomfortable. Gerry may slightly look down, it could be a reaction to the waiting press, a slight intimidation. Obviously the Martins were not aware that Gerry had a very good alibi for the time they saw the man walk past them carrying the child.
What does that mean? They seemed rather callous to begin with knowing it could be Madeleine on the 4th yet they made no contact with the PJ till weeks later. IMO.
I'm going to have to listen to the O Enigma interview to see what Amarals says about this incident. To see if he agrees.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 09:19:16 PM
There is some talk that Amaral thought that the Smith sighting was a ruse. I'm not too sure how that worked, but if he thought the whole thing was some sort of false news (using a more modern term) I can see why he wasn't getting his teeth into it. What makes you certain that the Smith sighting was genuine? I think it was a genuine sighting but to me it only makes sense if the Smiths didn't care that Madeleine was missing. They seemed more concerned that Robert Murat wasn't blamed for it. They seem to be more concerned to have the same story across the family rather than making their own statements. IMO
As the coordinator of the investigation, Amaral had a duty to ensure that a potentially very important sighting of a possible abductor was investigated. He chose to do nothing after the MS said the man definitely not Murat but then elected to do something after the McCanns had walked quickly followed by MS's fresh assertion that he was fairly sure the man he saw on 3rd May was Gerry. Either MS was a reliable witness or he wasn't - that seems to have depended on the line of inquiry being pursued.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2017, 09:28:01 PM
There was a lot of emphasis of how uncomfortable Gerry was at carrying Sean off the plane after their return home. The footage of that is covered in a low resolution video clip in this YT starting around here https://youtu.be/WWyjVmxWzDY?t=974 I have played it through several times and Sean does not look uncomfortable. Gerry may slightly look down, it could be a reaction to the waiting press, a slight intimidation. Obviously the Martins were not aware that Gerry had a very good alibi for the time they saw the man walk past them carrying the child.
What does that mean? They seemed rather callous to begin with knowing it could be Madeleine on the 4th yet they made no contact with the PJ till weeks later. IMO.
I'm going to have to listen to the O Enigma interview to see what Amarals says about this incident. To see if he agrees.
You refer to Gerry looking uncomfortable and, after watching the video, conclude that Sean didn't look uncomfortable. I thought you were discussing Gerry?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 20, 2017, 10:45:31 PM
As the coordinator of the investigation, Amaral had a duty to ensure that a potentially very important sighting of a possible abductor was investigated. He chose to do nothing after the MS said the man definitely not Murat but then elected to do something after the McCanns had walked quickly followed by MS's fresh assertion that he was fairly sure the man he saw on 3rd May was Gerry. Either MS was a reliable witness or he wasn't - that seems to have depended on the line of inquiry being pursued.
Misty can you give us the other choices Amaral had? You said he chose to do nothing why would that be? It appears you are claiming Amaral didn't want to find Maddie.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 11:01:51 PM
Misty can you give us the other choices Amaral had? You said he chose to do nothing why would that be? It appears you are claiming Amaral didn't want to find Maddie.
Amaral could have started where Rebelo did in October 2007 - by checking out the Smith family's timeline that evening beginning with the Dolphin Restaurant, Kelly's Bar & other places in the locale. Perhaps the PJ would even have been in time to retrieve the CCTV footage on the camera outside Estrela da Luz where the Smiths were staying. Instead, like the Smith family on 4/5 - 16/5 2007, he & his team chose to do nothing about it.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2017, 11:25:00 PM
Amaral could have started where Rebelo did in October 2007 - by checking out the Smith family's timeline that evening beginning with the Dolphin Restaurant, Kelly's Bar & other places in the locale. Perhaps the PJ would even have been in time to retrieve the CCTV footage on the camera outside Estrela da Luz where the Smiths were staying. Instead, like the Smith family on 4/5 - 16/5 2007, he & his team chose to do nothing about it.
I would assume the reason Rebelo checked the Smith's timeline was to find out if it was possible for Gerry to have been the man they saw. Before Martin Smith gave his statement identifying Gerry there would be no reason for Amaral or Rebelo to delve further into the times he and his family said they saw Smithman. They were, after all, only witnesses.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 20, 2017, 11:35:18 PM
I would assume the reason Rebelo checked the Smith's timeline was to find out if it was possible for Gerry to have been the man they saw. Before Martin Smith gave his statement identifying Gerry there would be no reason for Amaral or Rebelo to delve further into the times he and his family said they saw Smithman. They were, after all, only witnesses.
They were witnesses important enough for Amaral to have them secretly flown back to Portugal, make detailed statements & engage in a walk-through reconstruction at the scene of the sighting. The Smiths allegedly witnessed a lone man carrying a child of a similar age to Madeleine & wearing clothing likened to those in Madeleine's description - and that wasn't important enough to follow up in a suspected abduction case? Please.....
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 20, 2017, 11:52:49 PM
They were witnesses important enough for Amaral to have them secretly flown back to Portugal, make detailed statements & engage in a walk-through reconstruction at the scene of the sighting. The Smiths allegedly witnessed a lone man carrying a child of a similar age to Madeleine & wearing clothing likened to those in Madeleine's description - and that wasn't important enough to follow up in a suspected abduction case? Please.....
It was important enough to follow it up and as you have detailed above this is exactly what Amaral did. What wasn't important was to question the time it happened. All the family gave the same approximate time so why, if they were only witnesses, would further proof be needed ? It was only once MS had identified Gerry that the timeline became more important.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 21, 2017, 12:11:08 AM
It was important enough to follow it up and as you have detailed above this is exactly what Amaral did. What wasn't important was to question the time it happened. All the family gave the same approximate time so why, if they were only witnesses, would further proof be needed ? It was only once MS had identified Gerry that the timeline became more important.
Could you please explain why, in Amaral's mind, investigating a sighting of potential abductor held no importance whatsoever but a witness who was fundamental to implicating GM was deemed important enough to bring him back to Portugal?
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1155 up to 21m30
Note Amaral equating the sighting with the person under investigation at the time (Murat).
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 21, 2017, 12:40:02 AM
Could you please explain why, in Amaral's mind, investigating a sighting of potential abductor held no importance whatsoever but a witness who was fundamental to implicating GM was deemed important enough to bring him back to Portugal?
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1155 up to 21m30
Note Amaral equating the sighting with the person under investigation at the time (Murat).
No I couldn't tell you that as I am not Amaral and am not privy to his thought processes. What I can tell you is that Amaral thought the Smith sighting was important enough to bring three of the family back to Portugal to go into the circumstances of that sighting. The whole family agreed on the time the sighting happened so there was no point in gathering further evidence of this at that time.
Of course as we all now know due to SY's elimination of Tannerman, Amaral's focus on Smithman has been absolutely vindicated.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 21, 2017, 12:57:19 AM
No I couldn't tell you that as I am not Amaral and am not privy to his thought processes. What I can tell you is that Amaral thought the Smith sighting was important enough to bring three of the family back to Portugal to go into the circumstances of that sighting. The whole family agreed on the time the sighting happened so there was no point in gathering further evidence of this at that time.
Of course as we all now know due to SY's elimination of Tannerman, Amaral's focus on Smithman has been absolutely vindicated.
Have you actually watched O Enigma? Jane's sighting "never happened as she said" & Amaral has Tannerman heading towards the location of the Smith sighting. In a warped sense, Amaral is implying that Jane was watching Gerry carrying Madeleine!! How can that be explained, given the time lapse & independent witnesses?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2017, 01:14:08 AM
Could you please explain why, in Amaral's mind, investigating a sighting of potential abductor held no importance whatsoever but a witness who was fundamental to implicating GM was deemed important enough to bring him back to Portugal?
https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1155 up to 21m30
Note Amaral equating the sighting with the person under investigation at the time (Murat).
The imperative in my opinion was Amaral's theory and his determination there was no abductor.
Therefore in the period between the three Smith's return to Portugal to be interviewed by the police on 26 May 2007 and Martin Smith's recollection of 20 September 2007 the Smith sighting was a footnote in history because it suggested an abduction. Nothing was done about it for nearly five months. Quite extraordinary when you think about it.
Jane Tanner had failed to identify Murat. Martin Smith had specifically exonerated Murat as the carrier he had seen and in my opinion, an expensive lawyer would have chewed that up and spat it out in a court case.
Interest was only shown in the Smith sighting when after five months Martin Smith reported Madeleine's father as resembling the man he had passed in the street.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2017, 01:17:24 AM
Have you actually watched O Enigma? Jane's sighting "never happened as she said" & Amaral has Tannerman heading towards the location of the Smith sighting. In a warped sense, Amaral is implying that Jane was watching Gerry carrying Madeleine!! How can that be explained, given the time lapse & independent witnesses?
It is quite a bizarre implication ... given that a few frames prior to that he had Jane squeezing past Gerry and Jez on the pavement.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 21, 2017, 01:26:24 AM
You refer to Gerry looking uncomfortable and, after watching the video, conclude that Sean didn't look uncomfortable. I thought you were discussing Gerry?
I think you have to refer to his original statement to get the context. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm "He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual. " That is comfortable for the carrier IMO.
But Sean being carried by Gerry looks perfectly comfortable, if there is any discomfort it is Gerry when he looks at the crowd there to greet him.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 21, 2017, 03:19:28 AM
Jane Tanner has never deviated from the initial description she gave to the police ... including the fact she didn't see the man's face. IMO She has never identified Murat as that man ... and why Amaral makes the claim that she did is puzzling to say the least.
I believe her identification was based solely on the way he walked. How a positive identification can be claimed on that basis is anyones guess but in any event, had he been the individual I'm sure a simple search of his nearby villa would have identified the clothing which Jane claimed the man she saw was wearing. Again, not rocket science but good old basic detective work.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 21, 2017, 03:40:59 AM
I think you have to refer to his original statement to get the context. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm "He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual. " That is comfortable for the carrier IMO.
Martin Smith stated that the man he saw was definitely not Robert Murat so he must have got a good look at his face.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2017, 09:11:03 AM
I would assume the reason Rebelo checked the Smith's timeline was to find out if it was possible for Gerry to have been the man they saw. Before Martin Smith gave his statement identifying Gerry there would be no reason for Amaral or Rebelo to delve further into the times he and his family said they saw Smithman. They were, after all, only witnesses.
Rebelo's next move was to try to organise the reconstitution. The witnesses refused to attend and gave their reasons. Their refusal, of course, opened the door to speculation as to why.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on September 21, 2017, 09:14:22 AM
Can you prove those sentences are unfinished? You can't, so you're speculating. Even if they are, so what? People leave sentences unfinished for all sorts of reasons.
I don’t think it was him that I saw”.
4078 “No”. Reply “But I just thought it was”.
Jane says she doesn't think it was him that she saw. She's referring to what she thinks at present, during the interview. Then she tells us what she thought in the past; she thought then that it was him.
If you read the following in it's entirety and not just take a few words out of context , it's obvious to me that the discussion is about Fiona, Rachel and Russells claims that Murat was there on the 3rd May. It's not about whether JT identified him or not at that stage of the interview.
JT is saying that she thought it was important to make it clear during this interview - the details of what happened after Murat appeared on TV and the reasons why they rang Bob Small and to clarify that she had not told anyone about the ID parade - so there was no possibility that they had colluded at the time they rang him. etc etc
JT wanted to make it clear that none of them knew that RM had denied being there when they rang Bob Small.
IMO 'but I just thought it was' would probably have had the word 'important etc' after it, had she finished the sentence, which would fit in with the other bolded comments in her statement. AIMHO
Quote from JT Rog Reply “Erm well I think it’s when I’d done the, well I did the surveillance and then the next day after that, I think it came on Sky News about whether they were searching, what the MURAT’s house, so that’s Rachel sort of came running down at that point and sort of said, have you seen this blah, blah and at this point, nobody knew that I’d done the surveillance cos the Portuguese Police were very adamant that I shouldn’t tell anybody and I didn’t tell anybody for days actually, I didn’t even tell them then that it was actually, that I’d done it, I mean it was a couple of days afterwards. So Rachel came down and sort of said, oh I saw him blah, blah, blah and then I think Russell, I can’t remember who else but then somebody else said oh they, they saw him and etc., so at that point it was, I rang Bob SMALL cos I’d got, I’d got his number from the day before for them and you know, they sort of, you know to say, oh is this, is this relevant and also I wanted to tell him that I’d seen him on the way to the doing the surveillance as well yeah just for that, so I think it’s just to make the point really that I think at that point, they didn’t know that Robert MURAT said he wasn’t there on the night”. 4078 “Right”. Reply “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”. 4078 “No”. Reply “But I just thought it was”. 4078 “Because there had been some dispute as to whether they’ve actually seen him when they’ve said they’ve seen him”. Reply “Yeah I think, I just want to make it clear that from my own point of view, they gave that information as soon as it came onto Sky and asked and you know they were sort of like, oh let’s ring Bob SMALL to see if it’s relevant at this point and at that point, none of us knew that he wasn’t there on you know, that he didn’t say that he was there on the night and”. 4078 “Yes”. Reply “And I, I mean I didn’t myself see him on the night at all but somebody did say to me, who translated for you, was it the lady or the man and it, it was the lady, I said, Sylvie and I hadn’t seen a man but again I don’t know whether that has any relevance that there was somebody else there translating, you know during the night so”. 4078 “Okay, that’s certainly a point worth bringing up when we interview the other people that have seen him there on the night”. Reply “Yeah exactly, I’m not trying to, cos I feel you know, if he’s not involved, the poor chap’s had as much crap as us really, I feel very, you know, he’s not involved but I do think it’s important that”. 4078 “Get to the truth of the matter”? Reply “Get to the truth of the matter and the truth is you know they, when they asked me to ring Bob SMALL to make these statements, we didn’t even know that he’d erm, hadn’t, hadn’t said he was there on the night and they didn’t know that I’d done the surveillance”. 4078 “No”. Reply “Because I took it seriously”. 4078 “So there’s no collaboration between you all”? Reply “No”. 4078 “(Inaudible) completely independent other than that”? Reply “No, I hadn’t even, I mean when I got back, I didn’t even tell Russell what I’d done cos I took very seriously what the Police said in terms of not you know, not telling anybody”. 4078 “Yes”. Reply “So I just thought it was important to say that really”. 4078 “Yes”. Reply “(Inaudible), it’s not trying to build more of a case against him at all, it’s just my involvement in that side”. 4078 “Truth to what happened that night”? Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “It’s, is how they’ve said it, it’s not something you concocted up between you”. Reply “No, it was”. 4078 “And come to a conclusion that that must have been him”? Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “That’s genuinely was something at the time”? Reply “Yeah sort of at the time yeah”.
End quote
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 21, 2017, 09:25:53 AM
There seems to be a mix up with the closed captions on the bit discussing the Smith sightings. https://youtu.be/tUHp85TyJ0Y?t=1328 starts off part way through a sentence:
" suspected of carrying the child on his lap here, who would be the father of the missing child would would have been at that time sitting at the restaurant table, so it would be not a certainty, therefore worth what it is worth. If it was it was not sure what it was. And there are testimonials from the restaurant that say he has been absent at least half an hour but also cannot locate the time, right time, so it is all close to that time from 9:30 PM to 10:00 PM but there are no certainties of the correct time."
And on it goes
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 21, 2017, 09:31:03 AM
IMO Amaral does not accept that Martin Smith no longer thinks the man they saw was Gerry McCann.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2017, 09:38:42 AM
I believe her identification was based solely on the way he walked. How a positive identification can be claimed on that basis is anyones guess but in any event, had he been the individual I'm sure a simple search of his nearby villa would have identified the clothing which Jane claimed the man she saw was wearing. Again, not rocket science but good old basic detective work.
There is just so much information and misinformation doing the rounds that it is possible things were going on in the background that we will never really be able to put the finger on ... of which a terrific amount -rightly or wrongly - revolves around Murat.
Quote Meanwhile, a high ranking regional government official has told The Portugal News he asked police to investigate Robert Murat three days after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/find-madeleine/22276
That newspaper report was dated 19-05-2007.
Chapter seven of Amaral's book describes the occasion of the arousal of his suspicions on sight of Murat: Quote I immediately telephone the team to alert them. The Director of the Department of Criminal Investigation in Faro has to be involved in a meeting the same morning, where we will discuss the case of Robert Murat. Amaral End quote
Amaral dates that as May 10.
Quote On Tuesday, the Polícia Judiciária (PJ) announced they had questioned a suspect. He was questioned over the case of the missing British toddler, Madeleine McCann, but there was insufficient evidence to arrest or charge him. Robert Murat, a UK citizen and long-time resident of Portugal, was declared a suspect in connection with the disappearance 15 days ago of Madeleine McCann.
Quote An influential and high-ranking regional government official, who asked that his identity remain undisclosed “for the time-being” has told The Portugal News that it was he who told police on the morning of Sunday May 6th of his suspicions regarding Robert Murat.
While he asked to remain anonymous “for obvious reasons” he said part of the reason why he spoke to The Portugal News was to refute talk that Portuguese police had been acting on a tip-off that had originated from a British journalist’s suspsicions more than a week after Madeleine’s disappearance.
In fact, he indicated police have had an eye on Mr Murat since at least day 3 of Madeleine’s disappearance.
Quote “I have been made a scapegoat for something I didn't do”, Murat, 33, told Sky News reporters.
I believe her identification was based solely on the way he walked. How a positive identification can be claimed on that basis is anyones guess but in any event, had he been the individual I'm sure a simple search of his nearby villa would have identified the clothing which Jane claimed the man she saw was wearing. Again, not rocket science but good old basic detective work.
AFAIK the only person to make this claim is Amaral in his book. He wasn't there at the IP and he offers no evidence to back up his claim. It is telling IMO that his description of what happened during the IP leaves out all the key elements which made it impossible for JT to make a positive identification of RM. AIMHO
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 21, 2017, 10:27:40 AM
Martin Smith stated that the man he saw was definitely not Robert Murat so he must have got a good look at his face.
This is what Martin Smith said "— States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph" He didn't mention his face. If someone I didn't know passed by me just now I may not be able to recall what he looked like later, especially if I was concentrating on something else, but if someone I knew passed of course I'd recognise him. Can't you see the difference ?
John aren't you the one who pushes the idea that MS spoke to the abductor when it is quite clear from his statements that this is not the case.
I'm not entirely sure why you are trying to undermine MS as a witness.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 21, 2017, 11:31:11 AM
There was a lot of emphasis of how uncomfortable Gerry was at carrying Sean off the plane after their return home. The footage of that is covered in a low resolution video clip in this YT starting around here https://youtu.be/WWyjVmxWzDY?t=974 I have played it through several times and Sean does not look uncomfortable. Gerry may slightly look down, it could be a reaction to the waiting press, a slight intimidation. Obviously the Martins were not aware that Gerry had a very good alibi for the time they saw the man walk past them carrying the child.
What does that mean? They seemed rather callous to begin with knowing it could be Madeleine on the 4th yet they made no contact with the PJ till weeks later. IMO.
I'm going to have to listen to the O Enigma interview to see what Amarals says about this incident. To see if he agrees.
When you are walking down the steep steps from an aircraft it is good practice to look where your feet are going, particularly so when carrying a toddler. Wouldn't you agree?
If you read the following in it's entirety and not just take a few words out of context , it's obvious to me that the discussion is about Fiona, Rachel and Russells claims that Murat was there on the 3rd May. It's not about whether JT identified him or not at that stage of the interview.
JT is saying that she thought it was important to make it clear during this interview - the details of what happened after Murat appeared on TV and the reasons why they rang Bob Small and to clarify that she had not told anyone about the ID parade - so there was no possibility that they had colluded at the time they rang him. etc etc
JT wanted to make it clear that none of them knew that RM had denied being there when they rang Bob Small.
IMO 'but I just thought it was' would probably have had the word 'important etc' after it, had she finished the sentence, which would fit in with the other bolded comments in her statement. AIMHO
Quote from JT Rog Reply “Erm well I think it’s when I’d done the, well I did the surveillance and then the next day after that, I think it came on Sky News about whether they were searching, what the MURAT’s house, so that’s Rachel sort of came running down at that point and sort of said, have you seen this blah, blah and at this point, nobody knew that I’d done the surveillance cos the Portuguese Police were very adamant that I shouldn’t tell anybody and I didn’t tell anybody for days actually, I didn’t even tell them then that it was actually, that I’d done it, I mean it was a couple of days afterwards. So Rachel came down and sort of said, oh I saw him blah, blah, blah and then I think Russell, I can’t remember who else but then somebody else said oh they, they saw him and etc., so at that point it was, I rang Bob SMALL cos I’d got, I’d got his number from the day before for them and you know, they sort of, you know to say, oh is this, is this relevant and also I wanted to tell him that I’d seen him on the way to the doing the surveillance as well yeah just for that, so I think it’s just to make the point really that I think at that point, they didn’t know that Robert MURAT said he wasn’t there on the night”. 4078 “Right”. Reply “You know, or said yeah, had said that he wasn’t there on the night, so you know was immediately, I think it was immediately, I’m not trying to push anything onto Robert MURAT’s door, cos as I say I don’t think it was him that I saw”. 4078 “No”. Reply “But I just thought it was”. 4078 “Because there had been some dispute as to whether they’ve actually seen him when they’ve said they’ve seen him”. Reply “Yeah I think, I just want to make it clear that from my own point of view, they gave that information as soon as it came onto Sky and asked and you know they were sort of like, oh let’s ring Bob SMALL to see if it’s relevant at this point and at that point, none of us knew that he wasn’t there on you know, that he didn’t say that he was there on the night and”. 4078 “Yes”. Reply “And I, I mean I didn’t myself see him on the night at all but somebody did say to me, who translated for you, was it the lady or the man and it, it was the lady, I said, Sylvie and I hadn’t seen a man but again I don’t know whether that has any relevance that there was somebody else there translating, you know during the night so”. 4078 “Okay, that’s certainly a point worth bringing up when we interview the other people that have seen him there on the night”. Reply “Yeah exactly, I’m not trying to, cos I feel you know, if he’s not involved, the poor chap’s had as much crap as us really, I feel very, you know, he’s not involved but I do think it’s important that”. 4078 “Get to the truth of the matter”? Reply “Get to the truth of the matter and the truth is you know they, when they asked me to ring Bob SMALL to make these statements, we didn’t even know that he’d erm, hadn’t, hadn’t said he was there on the night and they didn’t know that I’d done the surveillance”. 4078 “No”. Reply “Because I took it seriously”. 4078 “So there’s no collaboration between you all”? Reply “No”. 4078 “(Inaudible) completely independent other than that”? Reply “No, I hadn’t even, I mean when I got back, I didn’t even tell Russell what I’d done cos I took very seriously what the Police said in terms of not you know, not telling anybody”. 4078 “Yes”. Reply “So I just thought it was important to say that really”. 4078 “Yes”. Reply “(Inaudible), it’s not trying to build more of a case against him at all, it’s just my involvement in that side”. 4078 “Truth to what happened that night”? Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “It’s, is how they’ve said it, it’s not something you concocted up between you”. Reply “No, it was”. 4078 “And come to a conclusion that that must have been him”? Reply “Yeah”. 4078 “That’s genuinely was something at the time”? Reply “Yeah sort of at the time yeah”.
End quote
I don't see an incomplete statement there, it makes perfect sense as it stands. Even if it is incomplete you don't know what her next words would have been. They may have been 'at the time'.
Jane raises the subject pf Murat again when asked if there's anything else she wants to talk about. Her aim seems to be to convince people that there was no collusion between her, Fiona, Rachael and Russell to get Murat into trouble.
What I don't understand is how him being there on the evening of 3rd could get him into trouble? Most of Luz was there that night. Also, what if Jane had told them what she did? All she knew was that the police were interested in Murat. By 7am the following morning everyone knew that because the police set about searching his Mum's house.
The evidence the T3 gave reminds me of Lori Campbell's theory about him. She told Sky on 14th May;
Campbell told Sky News: 'It was just very reminiscent of the Soham murders, that was my first thought. He was hanging around, asking us questions and maybe trying to find out what we knew.' https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/apr/13/madeleinemccann.medialaw
Fiona;
That she found his behaviour so excessively strange that she stayed as far away from him as she could. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE_16_05-07.htm
Rachael;
She thought this individual?s behaviour was very strange, given the intensity of his presence. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-11-MAY07.htm
Russell didn't find him strange until 13th, though;
He never noticed anything suspicious about Murat except for the last time he saw him when Robert was being transported in a vehicle, a green van with four windows, he does not remember the make, model or number plate and that he stopped, got out of the van, opened the back and showed photos of Madeleine and that he showed himself to be a very important person in the investigation, saying that he was providing immense help to the police in discovering the truth. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 21, 2017, 11:43:06 AM
Amaral could have started where Rebelo did in October 2007 - by checking out the Smith family's timeline that evening beginning with the Dolphin Restaurant, Kelly's Bar & other places in the locale. Perhaps the PJ would even have been in time to retrieve the CCTV footage on the camera outside Estrela da Luz where the Smiths were staying. Instead, like the Smith family on 4/5 - 16/5 2007, he & his team chose to do nothing about it.
The reason being the alleged abductor was seen walking east by Jane Tanner and not west and then south towards hotel Estrella da Luz and the town centre. It was only when the Smiths came forward that interest shifted, Smithman was unique to the Smiths, only they reported encountering him.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2017, 11:43:53 AM
When you are walking down the steep steps from an aircraft it is good practice to look where your feet are going, particularly so when carrying a toddler. Wouldn't you agree?
Whoever the person seen by the Smiths was, he was carrying the child exactly as Gerry was carrying his son off that aircraft;
it was like watching an action replay of the night he saw the male carrying the child back in Portugal. He states the way Gerry was carrying his twin triggered something in his head. It was exactly the same way and look of the male seen the night Maddie went missing . http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 21, 2017, 11:59:48 AM
The different carrying techniques between Tannerman and Smithman are interesting. Madeleine was much taller than Sean so if the Smiths did see her, her legs would have extended a lot further.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: jassi on September 21, 2017, 12:11:13 PM
The different carrying techniques between Tannerman and Smithman are interesting. Madeleine was much taller than Sean so if the Smiths did see her, her legs would have extended a lot further.
Was she? I thought Madeleine was said to be short for her age.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 21, 2017, 12:21:15 PM
This is what Martin Smith said "— States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph" He didn't mention his face. If someone I didn't know passed by me just now I may not be able to recall what he looked like later, especially if I was concentrating on something else, but if someone I knew passed of course I'd recognise him. Can't you see the difference ?
John aren't you the one who pushes the idea that MS spoke to the abductor when it is quite clear from his statements that this is not the case.
I'm not entirely sure why you are trying to undermine MS as a witness.
What I should have posted earlier was that the stranger was clearly visible to the Smith party, they could see his head and face but because of the gloom his features were indiscernible.
Martin Smith stated that his wife offered a simple question to the stranger as to whether the child was sleeping, at no time have I ever suggested that he spoke to said stranger.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: John on September 21, 2017, 12:33:21 PM
What I should have posted earlier was that the stranger was clearly visible to the Smith party, they could see his head and face but because of the gloom his features were indiscernible.
Martin Smith stated that his wife offered a simple question to the stranger as to whether the child was sleeping, at no time have I ever suggested that he spoke to said stranger.
Mr Smith said nothing in his statements about his wife speaking to the man. In my opinion that's a rumour. Mr Smith did speak to the Mirror, apparently, in October 2013;
“It looked as if they put 90% credence on the Jane Tanner sighting, maybe that wrong-footed them and they didn’t take our sighting as seriously. I was surprised it took six years to rule out the other sighting.”
“We‘d all love to see the police get to the bottom of what happened.”
“We think about Madeleine a lot and we would love to see a conclusion to this case.
“The only new thing in the investigation is the elimination of Jane Tanner’s sighting.
“Apart from that from our point of view everything else remains the same in relation to what we said to the police and the media at the time. We have nothing more to add.” http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-key-witness-accuses-2433328
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 21, 2017, 12:59:11 PM
So Smithman looks something like Gerry, but not Gerry himself. That is a very good start really.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 21, 2017, 01:10:14 PM
What I should have posted earlier was that the stranger was clearly visible to the Smith party, they could see his head and face but because of the gloom his features were indiscernible.
Martin Smith stated that his wife offered a simple question to the stranger as to whether the child was sleeping, at no time have I ever suggested that he spoke to said stranger.
I'm afraid you are mixing fact with newspaper reportage John, Nowhere except in one of the tabloids have I ever read that MS's wife spoke to the man carrying the child. Do you have a cite?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 21, 2017, 01:34:52 PM
Mr Smith said nothing in his statements about his wife speaking to the man. In my opinion that's a rumour. Mr Smith did speak to the Mirror, apparently, in October 2013;
“It looked as if they put 90% credence on the Jane Tanner sighting, maybe that wrong-footed them and they didn’t take our sighting as seriously. I was surprised it took six years to rule out the other sighting.”
“We‘d all love to see the police get to the bottom of what happened.”
“We think about Madeleine a lot and we would love to see a conclusion to this case.
“The only new thing in the investigation is the elimination of Jane Tanner’s sighting.
“Apart from that from our point of view everything else remains the same in relation to what we said to the police and the media at the time. We have nothing more to add.” http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-key-witness-accuses-2433328
Interesting that in 2013 it seems MS hadn't changed his opinion about who he was almost sure he saw that night, contrary to other reports.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Benice on September 21, 2017, 01:45:21 PM
Mr Smith said nothing in his statements about his wife speaking to the man. In my opinion that's a rumour. Mr Smith did speak to the Mirror, apparently, in October 2013;
“It looked as if they put 90% credence on the Jane Tanner sighting, maybe that wrong-footed them and they didn’t take our sighting as seriously. I was surprised it took six years to rule out the other sighting.”
“We‘d all love to see the police get to the bottom of what happened.”
“We think about Madeleine a lot and we would love to see a conclusion to this case.
“The only new thing in the investigation is the elimination of Jane Tanner’s sighting.
“Apart from that from our point of view everything else remains the same in relation to what we said to the police and the media at the time. We have nothing more to add.” http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-key-witness-accuses-2433328
Mrs Smith also said this to the media.
“This weekend, Mr Smith's wife Mary told the Mail on Sunday her husband had no regrets about coming forward. ‘He [Martin] doesn't want to talk, said Mrs Smith. He said what he had to say. I was with him [that night]. We saw a man carrying a child and that's all we know. We told them all that and that's it. The man he saw had the same stature as Gerry McCann. We felt we had to help. We're happy we did. We reported exactly what we saw…our hearts are breaking for her parents, as it would be if it were one of ours. 'I feel very much for them [the McCanns]. I have six grandchildren of my own and six children of my own. The poor McCann family must be heartbroken.'' End Quote
That doesn't sound to me as if the Smiths think the McCanns had anything to do with Madeleine's removal from 5A.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 21, 2017, 01:46:10 PM
Mr Smith said nothing in his statements about his wife speaking to the man. In my opinion that's a rumour. Mr Smith did speak to the Mirror, apparently, in October 2013;
“It looked as if they put 90% credence on the Jane Tanner sighting, maybe that wrong-footed them and they didn’t take our sighting as seriously. I was surprised it took six years to rule out the other sighting.”
“We‘d all love to see the police get to the bottom of what happened.”
“We think about Madeleine a lot and we would love to see a conclusion to this case.
“The only new thing in the investigation is the elimination of Jane Tanner’s sighting.
“Apart from that from our point of view everything else remains the same in relation to what we said to the police and the media at the time. We have nothing more to add.” http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-key-witness-accuses-2433328
There had been no active police investigation for around 4 years. Why would he be surprised that the sighting had not been ruled out? Is that what he was expecting? Why not be more surprised that the person had not been identified as the potential abductor? .
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: faithlilly on September 21, 2017, 01:48:56 PM
“This weekend, Mr Smith's wife Mary told the Mail on Sunday her husband had no regrets about coming forward. ‘He [Martin] doesn't want to talk, said Mrs Smith. He said what he had to say. I was with him [that night]. We saw a man carrying a child and that's all we know. We told them all that and that's it. The man he saw had the same stature as Gerry McCann. We felt we had to help. We're happy we did. We reported exactly what we saw…our hearts are breaking for her parents, as it would be if it were one of ours. 'I feel very much for them [the McCanns]. I have six grandchildren of my own and six children of my own. The poor McCann family must be heartbroken.'' End Quote
At that time it was believed Madeleine had died in an accident. The quote must surely be viewed in that context.
That doesn't sound to me as if the Smiths think the McCanns had anything to do with Madeleine's removal from 5A.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2017, 02:08:42 PM
“This weekend, Mr Smith's wife Mary told the Mail on Sunday her husband had no regrets about coming forward. ‘He [Martin] doesn't want to talk, said Mrs Smith. He said what he had to say. I was with him [that night]. We saw a man carrying a child and that's all we know. We told them all that and that's it. The man he saw had the same stature as Gerry McCann. We felt we had to help. We're happy we did. We reported exactly what we saw…our hearts are breaking for her parents, as it would be if it were one of ours. 'I feel very much for them [the McCanns]. I have six grandchildren of my own and six children of my own. The poor McCann family must be heartbroken.'' End Quote
I notice there's no link to the original article. Is there a reason for that?
You are quoting Mrs Smith who never gave any statement to the police. Does one member of a family speak for them all? Does a wife speak for her husband? Not according to what Mr Smith said in October 2013.
That doesn't sound to me as if the Smiths think the McCanns had anything to do with Madeleine's removal from 5A.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: misty on September 21, 2017, 03:08:36 PM
The Irish Mail on Sunday [Paper edition only] 10 August 2008
That's where this baseless statement came from then?
Mr. Smith had initally told police he had seen a man carrying a child that night, but that he couldn't identify him because he had not been wearing his glasses.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 21, 2017, 05:50:58 PM
“This weekend, Mr Smith's wife Mary told the Mail on Sunday her husband had no regrets about coming forward. ‘He [Martin] doesn't want to talk, said Mrs Smith. He said what he had to say. I was with him [that night]. We saw a man carrying a child and that's all we know. We told them all that and that's it. The man he saw had the same stature as Gerry McCann. We felt we had to help. We're happy we did. We reported exactly what we saw…our hearts are breaking for her parents, as it would be if it were one of ours. 'I feel very much for them [the McCanns]. I have six grandchildren of my own and six children of my own. The poor McCann family must be heartbroken.'' End Quote
That doesn't sound to me as if the Smiths think the McCanns had anything to do with Madeleine's removal from 5A.
It wouldn't matter whether they did or didn't, their opinion has no relevance. The only things of relevance are the Smith's statements with respect to what they saw around 22:00 hrs on 3rd May 2007.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 21, 2017, 07:38:19 PM
So Smithman looks something like Gerry, but not Gerry himself. That is a very good start really.
"The man he saw had the same stature as Gerry McCann" Mary Smith http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic8771.html
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 21, 2017, 08:47:57 PM
I believe Smith man to be of importance. It doesn't matter at this point if it is Gerry or not, because it rules out abducted by paedophiles and or a loving couple looking for a child- sleeping in a bed.
The abduction via 'snatched from bed' theory, by either these two theories, is surely not a deliverable as far as 'searching for Madeleine' report by OG is concerned.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 21, 2017, 09:39:54 PM
I believe Smith man to be of importance. It doesn't matter at this point if it is Gerry or not, because it rules out abducted by paedophiles and or a loving couple looking for a child- sleeping in a bed.
The abduction via 'snatched from bed' theory, by either these two theories, is surely not a deliverable as far as 'searching for Madeleine' report by OG is concerned.
No it doesn't
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: slartibartfast on September 21, 2017, 10:37:42 PM
because it rules out abducted ... a loving couple looking for a child " was the bit I objected too. Smithman could be part of the loving couple. They don't have to go there and do it as a couple.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 22, 2017, 12:42:45 AM
I think you have to refer to his original statement to get the context. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm "He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual. " That is comfortable for the carrier IMO.
But Sean being carried by Gerry looks perfectly comfortable, if there is any discomfort it is Gerry when he looks at the crowd there to greet him.
I agree Rob.
Not only comfortable for father and son, but the safest method of carrying S**n down the steps. Hand to his back as support but ever avaialble to catch hold of the hand rail should he stumble.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 22, 2017, 01:04:10 AM
I'm afraid you are mixing fact with newspaper reportage John, Nowhere except in one of the tabloids have I ever read that MS's wife spoke to the man carrying the child. Do you have a cite?
I have certainly read it too. Whether in newspaper report or something more Official, i cant remember. But since when have newspaper reports been rejected on here?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: sadie on September 22, 2017, 01:13:42 AM
because it rules out abducted ... a loving couple looking for a child " was the bit I objected too. Smithman could be part of the loving couple. They don't have to go there and do it as a couple.
I objected to that too, cos it aint true. He could be abducting her for a loving couple amongst other reasons or as you say he could be one half of a loving couple
But I think that unlikely TBH
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 22, 2017, 01:45:09 AM
I objected to that too, cos it aint true. He could be abducting her for a loving couple amongst other reasons or as you say he could be one half of a loving couple
But I think that unlikely TBH
What about a loving solo parent?
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on September 22, 2017, 08:20:00 AM
because it rules out abducted ... a loving couple looking for a child " was the bit I objected too. Smithman could be part of the loving couple. They don't have to go there and do it as a couple.
Maybe that's the sticking point that prevents OG from progressing to a finish.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 22, 2017, 08:27:49 AM
That's where this baseless statement came from then?
Mr. Smith had initally told police he had seen a man carrying a child that night, but that he couldn't identify him because he had not been wearing his glasses.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic8771.html
The article mentions no 'sources' and no 'friend close to the Smiths' . Mrs Smith's words are direct quotes from her.
IMO that gives the article a degree of validity that other articles quoting 'sources' and ' pals close to...' cannot claim.
Just because some sceptics don't like what Mrs Smith said - doesn't make it 'baseless'. IMO
Since then the Times on Sunday claimed that Mr Smith no longer believed Gerry to be the man he saw. Mr. Smith has never denied that claim or objected to it in any way AFAIK. As previously discussed - Mr Smith has been quick to threaten legal action against newspapers who have misrepresented him. The fact that he didn't take any action on this occasion is very pertinent IMO.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: barrier on September 22, 2017, 08:36:36 AM
The article mentions no 'sources' and no 'friend close to the Smiths' . Mrs Smith's words are direct quotes from her.
IMO that gives the article a degree of validity that other articles quoting 'sources' and ' pals close to...' cannot claim.
Just because some sceptics don't like what Mrs Smith said - doesn't make it 'baseless'. IMO
Since then the Times on Sunday claimed that Mr Smith no longer believed Gerry to be the man he saw. Mr. Smith has never denied that claim or objected to it in any way AFAIK. As previously discussed - Mr Smith has been quick to threaten legal action against newspapers who have misrepresented him. The fact that he didn't take any action on this occasion is very pertinent IMO.
Smith spoke directly to the Mirror on 16th October. The Times, I believe, was dated 27th October, but had no direct quote;
“It looked as if they put 90% credence on the Jane Tanner sighting, maybe that wrong-footed them and they didn’t take our sighting as seriously. I was surprised it took six years to rule out the other sighting.”
“We‘d all love to see the police get to the bottom of what happened.”
“We think about Madeleine a lot and we would love to see a conclusion to this case.
“The only new thing in the investigation is the elimination of Jane Tanner’s sighting.
“Apart from that from our point of view everything else remains the same in relation to what we said to the police and the media at the time. We have nothing more to add.” http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-key-witness-accuses-2433328
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2017, 08:57:59 AM
But would you not say, John, that the fact Amaral proposed it, indicates, in addition to it being bonkers, an abandonment by Amaral of huge swathes of what Amaral lays out in his book?
Very clearly, if Madeleine was cremated in a coffin, she can't, also, have been interred on the beach, disinterred, moved somewhere in a vehicle hired 3 weeks later (etc).
Can she?
I don't buy the cremation story either. If Madeleine was deceased and hidden, nobody in their right mind is going to risk carrying her through the streets to a church before secreting her in a coffin. It's just bonkers imo. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8237.msg409429#msg409429
There are just so many conspiracy theories scattered around like confetti emanating from this man that there must surely come a time when people have to step back and take stock of exactly what it is he saying and the lack of foundation there is for saying it.
Tomorrow is another day when the end of the world is forecast heralded by the appearance of a mystical planet in the sky which has apparently been foretold in prophesy. I've lived through many such apocalyptic prophecies ... as have those who have climbed mountains ready to be picked up by angels ... leaving us lesser mortals to our fate. When the angels don't come ... and humanity hasn't been wiped out ... they aren't phased. They just tailor an explanation and continue in like vein.
In my opinion Amaral has a history of doing just that ... and he has reinforced most of his prejudices concerning earlier misjudgements in programmes such as O Enigma when in my opinion an awful lot of the enigmas concerning Madeleine's case have their genesis either from his pen or from his mouth.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 22, 2017, 10:01:43 AM
Smith spoke directly to the Mirror on 16th October. The Times, I believe, was dated 27th October, but had no direct quote;
“It looked as if they put 90% credence on the Jane Tanner sighting, maybe that wrong-footed them and they didn’t take our sighting as seriously. I was surprised it took six years to rule out the other sighting.”
“We‘d all love to see the police get to the bottom of what happened.”
“We think about Madeleine a lot and we would love to see a conclusion to this case. “The only new thing in the investigation is the elimination of Jane Tanner’s sighting.
“Apart from that from our point of view everything else remains the same in relation to what we said to the police and the media at the time. We have nothing more to add.” http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-key-witness-accuses-2433328
Fair comment. I doubt they could make their position much plainer.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: G-Unit on September 22, 2017, 10:47:48 AM
I don't buy the cremation story either. If Madeleine was deceased and hidden, nobody in their right mind is going to risk carrying her through the streets to a church before secreting her in a coffin. It's just bonkers imo. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8237.msg409429#msg409429
There are just so many conspiracy theories scattered around like confetti emanating from this man that there must surely come a time when people have to step back and take stock of exactly what it is he saying and the lack of foundation there is for saying it.
Tomorrow is another day when the end of the world is forecast heralded by the appearance of a mystical planet in the sky which has apparently been foretold in prophesy. I've lived through many such apocalyptic prophecies ... as have those who have climbed mountains ready to be picked up by angels ... leaving us lesser mortals to our fate. When the angels don't come ... and humanity hasn't been wiped out ... they aren't phased. They just tailor an explanation and continue in like vein.
In my opinion Amaral has a history of doing just that ... and he has reinforced most of his prejudices concerning earlier misjudgements in programmes such as O Enigma when in my opinion an awful lot of the enigmas concerning Madeleine's case have their genesis either from his pen or from his mouth.
Some people spend hours speculating about how an abductor or abductors extracted a child from a bedroom, other's speculate about how someone might have disposed of a body. It's all speculation and of equal value imo.
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 22, 2017, 07:46:39 PM
The article mentions no 'sources' and no 'friend close to the Smiths' . Mrs Smith's words are direct quotes from her.
IMO that gives the article a degree of validity that other articles quoting 'sources' and ' pals close to...' cannot claim.
Just because some sceptics don't like what Mrs Smith said - doesn't make it 'baseless'. IMO
Since then the Times on Sunday claimed that Mr Smith no longer believed Gerry to be the man he saw. Mr. Smith has never denied that claim or objected to it in any way AFAIK. As previously discussed - Mr Smith has been quick to threaten legal action against newspapers who have misrepresented him. The fact that he didn't take any action on this occasion is very pertinent IMO.
Keep thinking that but don't be shocked if you are wrong 8(0(*
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 10, 2017, 03:04:45 PM
http://www.gettyimages.ie/license/666992254
"We had information three figures went into the church via a side door at night." Goncalo Amaral
Title: Re: CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma - with English subtitles
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 10, 2017, 03:50:02 PM